New fuel system testing.
- Thread starter NM
- Start date
Ok, not really wanting to make "big" power, just want to make the proper power for the boost I am running (10# at 1000 ft, and 14# at 8-10000 ft) and not want to run anything else but pump 91 (am adding torco just to be safe). I am quite content doing that, but would like to know that I do not have to screw around tuning all the time (hence the reason I went with the pl turbo and rb3) However the rb3 has been ok, it hasn't been as good as i thought it should be. Will this system really be that easy to tune, and keep tuned? Hate to throw $1200 at it and still have to dick with it all the time, or worse yet grenade my motor because I was too stupid to do something right.
Thanks for the info, and keep filling us in.
kirk
I dont want to give away to much info as its neils setup and he is doing the R&D for the sled applications, but the system he is using is retarted simple. the system has 2 controls, each being one of the knobs. the one being what boost it comes in at, the second being the "gain" or rate at which it fuels for boost. as far as messing with it. there is really only so much messing you can do with 2 knobs. and once you find your happy place with engagement level, your down to a single knob for tuning. no matter how you slice it, there is only so much you can mess around with at that point.
I would like to admit I have no experience with Neil's personal system he is developing, just have done a lot of research on the subject and woud like to help keep people informed on the subjet, as I see this being a HUGE jump in the turbo yami world. yes, its more expensive then a normal box, and it may not have as many features as some(rb3), but sometimes I think its better that we have simple tuning systems that just work well day in and day out. having a the best running sled is awsome, but having a sled that runs probably 95% of perfect day in and day out with minimal to no tuning is in my mind a bigger gain. I personally hate wrenching on the hill. makes sledding suck, we only get so much snow all year to ride, no sense wasting it on building maps... etc etc. If I had one of the new FI systems, I would be all over this, but instead I am looking into doing a full FI conversion from SDS... so no need for this.
I would like to admit I have no experience with Neil's personal system he is developing, just have done a lot of research on the subject and woud like to help keep people informed on the subjet, as I see this being a HUGE jump in the turbo yami world. yes, its more expensive then a normal box, and it may not have as many features as some(rb3), but sometimes I think its better that we have simple tuning systems that just work well day in and day out. having a the best running sled is awsome, but having a sled that runs probably 95% of perfect day in and day out with minimal to no tuning is in my mind a bigger gain. I personally hate wrenching on the hill. makes sledding suck, we only get so much snow all year to ride, no sense wasting it on building maps... etc etc. If I had one of the new FI systems, I would be all over this, but instead I am looking into doing a full FI conversion from SDS... so no need for this.
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Menace1
Well-known member
It sounds to me like you should learn to tune your sled better rather than just throwing money at a product in hopes it makes your sled run better. No matter what, conditions are constantly changing out there so the ability to know what parameters need altering is the only way to to "keep it tuned". Im not sure how the RB3 system works but im sure if you used it properly your sled would run great but you STILL need to adjust for environment. It sounds to me like NM is doing a great job in make adjustment easier for the less mechanically inclined and Im sure it will be "or already is" a great system especially if you are capable of making big boost but lack the fuel supply. Sorry for the friday morning rant and hope I dont offend anyone. Whens winter going to get here???
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NM
Well-known member
Thanks Menace! I think the problem for some sledders, is that they are sick and tired of spending tens of thousands on the sled, and then thousands more on gear, gas, trucks, trailers, hotel rooms, food, booze, etc., then finally get to the top of the hill hundreds of miles from home and the sled won't run right. I know this has happened to me.
It seems to be a common theme especially with the RB3 guys. So then what? Get out the laptop or pda?lol.
This system is so easy in the fact that the sled runs on stock injectors and stock fuel mapping until it needs fuel under boost and the fuel controller and extra injectors add fuel based on where the rider wants it.
I have ridden my Nytro from 1500 ft elevation to 8000 ft elevation, and yes I had to adjust the box...but it only took me 5 minutes to dial it in where it ran perfect all day, and I did it "on the hill".
I didn't have to get out the laptop, pda, ot phone afriend to email me a map in hopes my sled would run good the next day.
I basically took what MCxpress is doing and made it adjustable.
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Turbo11T
Well-known member
Fully adjustable
NM, I know this would be going deeper than maybe It would need to. But, Couldn't the EIC box with a few extra inputs(charge temp, air temp, etc) become a box that would adjust its self on a given parameter set for a variety of conditions? Parameters would look like this to a programmer, for every 2 degrees of temp change the system will pull fuel back 1% as an example. As well as have the Base parameter(the turn knobs) still be active. So if you go to the hill get set at 9 am at 10 degrees and at 2 when it is 35 out the sled will still run crisp. This is what a stock efi does.
I am not a programmer, I do know that this could work though. But it would make it more complicated.
Turning a knob is pretty sweet. Alot like what the Variflow did on a 2 stroke. Turn a knob to change the fuel. Pretty sweet.
This is definately a slick setup and I am toying in my mind if I could get it to work on my carbed model, but if it could make small changes that would be even awesomer!
NM, I know this would be going deeper than maybe It would need to. But, Couldn't the EIC box with a few extra inputs(charge temp, air temp, etc) become a box that would adjust its self on a given parameter set for a variety of conditions? Parameters would look like this to a programmer, for every 2 degrees of temp change the system will pull fuel back 1% as an example. As well as have the Base parameter(the turn knobs) still be active. So if you go to the hill get set at 9 am at 10 degrees and at 2 when it is 35 out the sled will still run crisp. This is what a stock efi does.
I am not a programmer, I do know that this could work though. But it would make it more complicated.
Turning a knob is pretty sweet. Alot like what the Variflow did on a 2 stroke. Turn a knob to change the fuel. Pretty sweet.
This is definately a slick setup and I am toying in my mind if I could get it to work on my carbed model, but if it could make small changes that would be even awesomer!
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NM
Well-known member
You could do that probably, but it would add cost and complexity too what is designed to be easily adjustable by the user. If you want less fuel, turn the right knob slightly to the left, if you want more then turn it to the right.
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NM
Well-known member
Yes the 800. I believe that the carbs will do most of the fueling and the injectors will be used for fine tuning.
I see weird issues on piggybacking with carbs.. but whatver..
as far as what turbo583 speaks about. at that point, your into EXACTLY how the sds full efi systems work, they are a bit more complex and are harder to tune, but have engine and air temp sensors, and adjust the mape on percent base for those 2 temps.. nothing to crazy, but its basically what your are looking for.
This setup is really slick, and like you mentioned, its like a MCX setup, but you can adjust it.
as far as what turbo583 speaks about. at that point, your into EXACTLY how the sds full efi systems work, they are a bit more complex and are harder to tune, but have engine and air temp sensors, and adjust the mape on percent base for those 2 temps.. nothing to crazy, but its basically what your are looking for.
This setup is really slick, and like you mentioned, its like a MCX setup, but you can adjust it.
Thanks for your opinion, but me and my checkbook will be just fine without your opinions on my tuning ability. LOL.
As far as what I want my sled to do is turn key and ride, like so many others out there. I don't want to drag my laptop around, I also don't really want to be making adjustments if I don't have to (really want a closed loop system, but until someone makes one for my kit this fix from NM may be the best system) I am more than willing to throw a little more money to make my sled a better running sled, but am having a hard time believing it can be this easy. And tuning by the AF makes me nervous as getting a good read at full throttle has always been a challenge LOL.
Keep us posted NM, This does sound interesting and may be in my sled before this winter>
kirk
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EZmoney
Well-known member
Kirk.. Tunning the a/f really is that easy and when you try it and get to know your sled a little better you will agree . The rb3 is way more complex than anything out there imo. Some people are afraid of a pure logic box or attitude and in all honesty they are simple.Wayyy more simple than a rb3. This system with only two dials and one that you would really never touch adjusting when your boost fuel is to come on, and other adding or subtracting fuel makes it as easy as it can get. I have a apex with a turbo and it is always close from one mountain to the next so If your a guy that does not care about the perfect air fuel mix you would never really ever have to touch it. But between a A/f mix of 11.0 and 12.8 is a big margin, there is alot of power on the table and throttle response. But why not utilize what your sled makes for power?At 11.0 The Sled will still run not bad but not near perfect. And that is what several guys are running into with a rb3. Good on one hill but not on the next .So waiting for a new map and hoping for a fix.But by the time you get it conditions change temp ect. So guess what? Another map! So i dont blame ya for not wanting to drag your lap top around.This system could be your fix. If your not into tunning at all the your other alternative is a mcx kit or a impulse standalone kit. Myself i would get a af gauge and give this a try first. I think your sled will run better than ever!
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I hate to get NM's posting completely off target, so i may send you a pm sometime when I have some time if that is ok with you.
kirk
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Duke
Well-known member
The RB3 is far from complex. lol
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NM
Well-known member
It is far from easily adjustable on the hill too!
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SPOOLED
Active member
Ya I completly loved packing my laptop on the mountain just so i can tune my sled oh wait, i cant see the screen, oh sh1t my battery is dead, and my sled runs worse, exsessivly rich wasting all my fuel, oh i know if i just run wot all day, the af's will be dangerously lean, because its maxed out on the fuel map. and the timing is retarted to get the af's down making no power. waste of a trip wasting more money. glad to be rid of the rb3!
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NM
Well-known member
Why not just call someone and get a new map emailed to you on the mountain? You already had the computer their.lol
If anyone has more questions regarding info for their specific setup, then just shoot me a PM and I will be happy to give my cell# out and can email install instructions if needed.
NM
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NM
Well-known member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh2ZRiRUs2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilk6dyEmiFU&NR=1
Here are some links of Apex testing. If you watch in HD then it can be paused so you can see RPM, Boost, KPH. This is running a 3 inch 174 with stock gearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilk6dyEmiFU&NR=1
Here are some links of Apex testing. If you watch in HD then it can be paused so you can see RPM, Boost, KPH. This is running a 3 inch 174 with stock gearing.
