New 800 Dragon-burning belts

[Snoweasel]

No belt problems here

750 miles on the D7 (rode like I stole it miles) and only 120 miles on the D8 and no sign of belt problems on either. The D7 has vents and the cluthches run waaay cooler and belt looks like new. I will put vents on the D8. I'm using the SLP LHS shock tower vent on the D7 (no foot well vents) and it seams to work very well on the D7 (50 bucks). I do scuff the primary and secondary clutch sheaves with a scuff pad after every major ride and I truly believe it's worth it as I have over 10,000 accumulated miles on several different Poo's (3000 miles max on any one) and have never lost a belt. I've run both the 080 and 115 on the palaris. A few freinds who run the Doo's XP's have not have belt problems AFTER they vented either. JMO

 

[MNIQR]

as i do agree with everything mountainhorse said above.

it still ticks me off that a manufacturer produces something half azz, and expects the dealer to check evrything over and make it all right. its a bunch of ****. if you bought a new chevy truck would you as a dealer be expected to double check everything and varify the clutch is right and the tires are tight and install the windshield. WHAT A BUNCH OF ****. if they would get off there azz and install this stuff right the first time at the dealer, we wouldnt have these problems. i think thats were the yamaha's have them all beat, they seem to be right for the most part from the factory, not the dealer. by that i mean that if i guy was gonna ride one stoke it would be fairly close on clutching, not blowing belts every 200 miles or less and the fuel and ignition maps would be right.
sorry for my rant, but this kinda rubs me the wrong way when even poo reps blame **** on dealer setup. how about if manuffacter setup was right to begin with!!

 

[mountainhorse]

Did you read your owners manual cover to cover...

How bout the break in procedure and washing your belt in hot water and dishsoap with a brush?

Here is a simple presentation on gearing from Avid-Products.com

A third item you should consider is chain case gearing. Mountain sleds (for the most part) as they come from the factory are geared too high for mountain riding. Perhaps yours is too. There is a simple test to see how efficient your gearing is. Mark the inside sheave of your primary clutch with a Marks-a-lot and go riding. After you have gone on a couple of trips, look at the mark. If the mark hasn’t been wiped off, you can gear down and not affect the top speed of your sled as you ride it. We have talked with people who were afraid to gear down, because they felt it might affect their top speed. This is a valid concern, but if you aren’t wiping all the marks off the clutch, then either you don’t have the horsepower to go as fast as you are geared or the top speed of your sled doesn’t fit your riding style. Lower gears increase drive belt life because the normal operating range is moved out further from the center on the primary clutch. More of the belt is in contact with the clutch and is less prone to slip and reduces belt temperature. You will also gain more throttle control at the lower speeds. Your engagement will be smoother and you will be able to get started in really soft snow without digging a hole.

Make sure that your clutches are in spec!!

 

[mountainhorse]

Dont feel bad MNIQR.... if it were a $8000 dirt bike, you wouldnt even get a warranty! I'm with you on this one with a bit of "buffer"

These sleds are coming stock at wicked levels of performance, similar to a race bike or a race car....

If chevy were to make a Baja competitive truck or a rock crawler, I wonder if the warranty or set up would be spot on as well.

I wonder if the clutch on the truck is set up well, or will tollerate clutch drop, speed shifting street racing?

How often do you drop WFO on hill climb or run thru the trees... is that like getting groceries in your camery or like racing Laguna Seca on a superbike?

Apples and apples

There are great dealers out there that might not have the basement price on the sled but, like my local dealer, are great with the inital setup on the sled and taking care of the customer... I still believe the dealer and their service team is crucial to having a good sled.

as i do agree with everything mountainhorse said above.

it still ticks me off that a manufacturer produces something half azz, and expects the dealer to check evrything over and make it all right. its a bunch of ****. if you bought a new chevy truck would you as a dealer be expected to double check everything and varify the clutch is right and the tires are tight and install the windshield. WHAT A BUNCH OF ****. if they would get off there azz and install this stuff right the first time at the dealer, we wouldnt have these problems. i think thats were the yamaha's have them all beat, they seem to be right for the most part from the factory, not the dealer. by that i mean that if i guy was gonna ride one stoke it would be fairly close on clutching, not blowing belts every 200 miles or less and the fuel and ignition maps would be right.
sorry for my rant, but this kinda rubs me the wrong way when even poo reps blame **** on dealer setup. how about if manuffacter setup was right to begin with!!

 

[voodoo]

If you are braking belts into little pieces i would say your deflection is too tight. I, along with most performance riders, like to run deflection tight. Gives you that nice botom end grunt. Problems can start to occur at higher speeds and when shifter out.

Case in point, I rode with a new 800 Draon this week. He disintegrated his belt at 450 miles. This happened on a long strech of hard packed trail where we were running fast. With these sleds geared down for performance in powder, you run the risk of overdriving the clutches on the trails. He basically pulled the belt apart. Had he only run this way for a couple miles it probably would have been OK. Prior to this, he had held it WFO for the other 440 miles in the powder for 5 days and it performed awesome. In the powder the belt was hot yet it didn't blow, it was never fully shifted out.

 

[mountainhorse]

If you are blowing out a 3211115 belt, which can survive a nuclear attack, somenting big is wrong... Bad alignment, a bad motor mount, improplerly setup clutches etc.

Running the deflection too tight actually "scallops" the belt and causes the primary to burn/glaze the inside and sides of the of the belt which leads to slipping. You run the deflection tight, but what about your side clearance?

Slipping = heat, heat destroys belts and drastically lowers performance

I doubt that the secondarys do not have the ability to open any further, and "snap" the belt, because of deflection. You would pretty much have to get the belt past the outside of the primary for that to happen.... If you are overrevving on the trail, even WFO, the primary has the wrong combo of spring and weight.. even for the hill. The same thing would happen in light "blower powder" conditions at WFO when the track speeds are topped out.

What happens with a lot of the performance riders is that they use steep angles on the helixes that actually reduce the belt clamping ability of the secondary and they slip... then they switch to a heavier secondary spring which now messes with the clutches abilty to backshift and "fights" the primary more.

Clutching is a ballancing act that takes time to get right once you start changing things. Once you start tuning, you could be in for a long haul to get it worked out.

Primary is a rpm sensing device
Secondary is a torque sensing device.

On the 800 that disentegrated the belt... did he change any thing with the clutching or gearing besides the deflection and side clearance?

Was the side clearance checked and adjusted once you set the deflection tight?

If the belt was hot, was it the secondary that was causing the heat or the primary? (slippage in the secondary or the primary?) A cheap IR thermometer that you can buy at Kragen/Checker/Shucks/NAPA is a very good tuning tool that can answer that in a hurry.

A properly calibrated primay/secondary will give you consistent results on the trail and the mountain.

For more grunt, rather that trying to push the belt out to the edge of the secondary for more leverage, try stepping the final gear ratio down a point or two.

 

[IceCap]

If you are blowing out a 3211115 belt, which can survive a nuclear attack, somenting big is wrong... Bad alignment, a bad motor mount, improplerly setup clutches etc.

Running the deflection too tight actually "scallops" the belt and causes the primary to burn/glaze the inside and sides of the of the belt which leads to slipping. You run the deflection tight, but what about your side clearance?

Slipping = heat, heat destroys belts and drastically lowers performance

I doubt that the secondarys do not have the ability to open any further, and "snap" the belt, because of deflection. You would pretty much have to get the belt past the outside of the primary for that to happen.... If you are overrevving on the trail, even WFO, the primary has the wrong combo of spring and weight.. even for the hill. The same thing would happen in light "blower powder" conditions at WFO when the track speeds are topped out.

What happens with a lot of the performance riders is that they use steep angles on the helixes that actually reduce the belt clamping ability of the secondary and they slip... then they switch to a heavier secondary spring which now messes with the clutches abilty to backshift and "fights" the primary more.

Clutching is a ballancing act that takes time to get right once you start changing things. Once you start tuning, you could be in for a long haul to get it worked out.

Primary is a rpm sensing device
Secondary is a torque sensing device.

On the 800 that disentegrated the belt... did he change any thing with the clutching or gearing besides the deflection and side clearance?

Was the side clearance checked and adjusted once you set the deflection tight?

If the belt was hot, was it the secondary that was causing the heat or the primary? (slippage in the secondary or the primary?) A cheap IR thermometer that you can buy at Kragen/Checker/Shucks/NAPA is a very good tuning tool that can answer that in a hurry.

A properly calibrated primay/secondary will give you consistent results on the trail and the mountain.

For more grunt, rather that trying to push the belt out to the edge of the secondary for more leverage, try stepping the final gear ratio down a point or two.

Do what mountainhorse suggests..... Bottom line if you are blowing belts you have got slippage or alignment problems.
Alignment can be helped by floating the secondary... which I recommend everyone do. Take a washer out of the back of the secondary and let it move back and forth on the jack shaft.
You must choose the right primary weight so your engine is putting maximum power down to the track.
Gearing down a bit and venting does help alot also.

 

[Wasatch RMK]

mountainhorse, that is some very helpful information you've posted. Thank You!

I'm a contrarian on this issue. Polaris and our dealers sold us the 800 Dragon as their top of the line mountain machine. They knew, and indeed advertised it, as being made specifically for deep powder riding.

If there are belt heating issues that result in short belt life and Polaris failed to provide adequate ventilation for the heat when we are using the sleds in exactly the conditions they were designed for, that speaks (IMHO) very poorly of Polaris. To then deny warranty claims for belts that were overheated as a result of inadequate ventilation adds insult to injury.

I have buddy who has gone through four $170.00 belts in just over 400 miles. To me something is wrong. In true-to-form fashion Polaris denied any warranty claims on his belts.

Make no mistake, I think my Dragon is an incredible machine, but I deeply resent doing product testing and being required to spend money to make my machine do what it was advertised to do.

 

[voodoo]

If you are blowing out a 3211115 belt, which can survive a nuclear attack, somenting big is wrong... Bad alignment, a bad motor mount, improplerly setup clutches etc.

Running the deflection too tight actually "scallops" the belt and causes the primary to burn/glaze the inside and sides of the of the belt which leads to slipping. You run the deflection tight, but what about your side clearance?

Slipping = heat, heat destroys belts and drastically lowers performance

I doubt that the secondarys do not have the ability to open any further, and "snap" the belt, because of deflection. You would pretty much have to get the belt past the outside of the primary for that to happen.... If you are overrevving on the trail, even WFO, the primary has the wrong combo of spring and weight.. even for the hill. The same thing would happen in light "blower powder" conditions at WFO when the track speeds are topped out.

What happens with a lot of the performance riders is that they use steep angles on the helixes that actually reduce the belt clamping ability of the secondary and they slip... then they switch to a heavier secondary spring which now messes with the clutches abilty to backshift and "fights" the primary more.

Clutching is a ballancing act that takes time to get right once you start changing things. Once you start tuning, you could be in for a long haul to get it worked out.

Primary is a rpm sensing device
Secondary is a torque sensing device.

On the 800 that disentegrated the belt... did he change any thing with the clutching or gearing besides the deflection and side clearance?

Was the side clearance checked and adjusted once you set the deflection tight?

If the belt was hot, was it the secondary that was causing the heat or the primary? (slippage in the secondary or the primary?) A cheap IR thermometer that you can buy at Kragen/Checker/Shucks/NAPA is a very good tuning tool that can answer that in a hurry.

A properly calibrated primay/secondary will give you consistent results on the trail and the mountain.

For more grunt, rather that trying to push the belt out to the edge of the secondary for more leverage, try stepping the final gear ratio down a point or two.

I think we are getting at the same point, by running the deflection too tight you add a bunch of heat when shifted out. You are slipping against the inside of the belt on the cogs. I doubt very much you can shift a sled out when in the powder, even if it is sugar. I messed up last yar after installing my 660 and had the belt too tight. After repeated top end runs the belt snapped and disintegrated into 100 pieces. Put on a new belt, set the deflection correctly and never had another problem. The team clutch backshifts very hard and is trying to all the time. Running a higher angle slows that down, but you have to spring it up. On the old button I ran very low angles and very tight springs with success. The Team doesn't seem as responsive to angle or spring changes IMHO. I really don't like the clutch and hope something new appears.

The backshift difference between the Team and the Cat secondary is huge. Let off the gas on a Polaris and it acts like the brakes are on. Let off the gas on a Cat and it will coast a mile. The Team is nice when coming down a steep hill or into a corner, but I believe it is the root of all the belt issues. When riding my Polaris I hardly ever use the brake, on a Cat you are on the brake all the time. A happy medium must exist??????????

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I have a friend who has a 155 and a tremendous amount of belt/clutch heat. I can't speak for the 163's but the 155's are obviously geared a wee bit tall good belt life. He has vents and even ran hoodless for a day, the clutches were still smokin hot. His dealer recommended gearing from the 20 to the 19 tooth. This change alone made his set-up run noticeably cooler.