Need Help in the Snowies
- Thread starter sledhead_79
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X
XP Summit
Well-known member
I really wish I could be there for this but being in Minneapolis kicks that idea in the butt. Let us know what we can do.
I understand they don't want us riding on 12 inches or less and neither do I, but what defines 12 inches? I know sometimes riding across libby flats there isn't 12 inches in those areas but over in the tree's a stones throw away is over 4 ft.
Also why wouldn't they set a minimal amount of snow vs set dates? A few more smaller snowfalls and Snowies will be very rideable.
Cheers
Shawn
I understand they don't want us riding on 12 inches or less and neither do I, but what defines 12 inches? I know sometimes riding across libby flats there isn't 12 inches in those areas but over in the tree's a stones throw away is over 4 ft.
Also why wouldn't they set a minimal amount of snow vs set dates? A few more smaller snowfalls and Snowies will be very rideable.
Cheers
Shawn
The best thing people can do is join their local snowmobile clubs. Take the time to write a letter or an email. Even pick up the phone and do as many have and have a nice cordial conversation with the Forest service.
Sitting back and just complaining will get us no where.
Also the state snowmobile associations are always advocating for snowmobilers rights. Join or donate to them as well.
X
XP Summit
Well-known member
I live in Minneapolis. All my riding is out West. I have lived in MN since 99 and so far I have put on 13 miles in MN. Those miles where on Dec of 07 after receiving a new sled and putting the new trophy chick on the back for a ride up the street.
I know what you are saying, but I want to preserve riding on Public lands in the Mountain's... more specifically the Snowies in this case. All of our riding at home is on Private land where rarely do you go but a couple feet off the trail. All of the local clubs primarily have interest locally and in there areas. I always support them when I can, but will throw much more money the areas I ride. If I ride an area, I will do what I feel is necessary to retain access to that area.
Cheers
Shawn
Join the clubs that are in the areas you ride. Support the state associations in the states you ride in. Even if you can't be there for meetings many clubs can keep you up to date on what is going on. All snowmobile clubs advocate for riders rights and your support helps.
If you are not a member of a club or a state snowmobile association where you ride find one and join.
If you are not a member of a club or a state snowmobile association where you ride find one and join.
Meeting tonight
Just want to remind everyone that can be in Laramie tonight for the Snowy Range Snowmobile Club meeting it is at 7:00 PM at the Holiday Inn (Gold Room). A representative from the FS will be there.
For those of you coming please be respectful of the representative and when the floor is opened for questions and comments please be courteous and on point so everyone that has questions can get theirs asked.
Thanks again to all that support and let's have a solid turn out so that the FS understands our concerns. And with any luck convince them to make some changes.
Just want to remind everyone that can be in Laramie tonight for the Snowy Range Snowmobile Club meeting it is at 7:00 PM at the Holiday Inn (Gold Room). A representative from the FS will be there.
For those of you coming please be respectful of the representative and when the floor is opened for questions and comments please be courteous and on point so everyone that has questions can get theirs asked.
Thanks again to all that support and let's have a solid turn out so that the FS understands our concerns. And with any luck convince them to make some changes.
The Meeting!
I just left the meeting that the Snowy Range Snowmobile Association held for the Order pertaining to the rules of only being able to ride from November 30th to May 30! There was 3 people from the Forest Service that came and talked about the Order and why it was put in place! There was a lot of Snowmobilers that came to the meeting, it was a very good turn out and they said they were surprised at how many people came to support the sport and protest this order. So as far as attendance goes, it was impressive to see all the people there! The Snowmobilers gave a lot of valid points to the forest service of why these rules aren't going to help anything and they are just going to hurt a lot of businesses and take away a lot of money from the surrounding counties. The big thing was a lot of people riding during Thanksgiving and people coming from the Mid Western States such Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota Etc. coming out to ride Over Thanksgiving and with this Order in effect, you could not do this.
1.) The 12 inch rule, meaning if there is not 12 inches of snow, you cannot ride off trail. Which most of the snowmobilers have no problem with. It seems kinda of like a common sense rule, if there isn't very much snow you probably wont be riding trail because you don't want to take out an a-arm or damage your sled!
2.) The Dates that they put in place, The forest service did not really have a good reason why these dates were put in place, they tried to say that they put the Nov. 30 date in effect because of the Cow/Calf Hunting season, but the snowmobilers quickly shut that down by saying that by that time, the elk and other animals had migrated to lower elevation because they do not want to compete with deep snow and snowmobilers are riding up higher where there is more snow, so essential the elk are not the problem and they also said that they put this rule in place because people were riding really early season and damaging the ground and wilderness, but if they said that you had to have 12 inches of snow to ride off trail, that would eliminate this problem and you would not have to have the dates in place. They did not really have a reason for why the May 30th date is there and a lot of snowmobilers gave really good points of why there should be no dates set in place.
This is kind of all of the place, but I tried to write this with giving a lot of detail in a couple of short paragraphs.
All in all the Snowmobilers gave a lot of good points and the Forest Service seemed take them in to consideration. So hopefully they get things figured out and let us ride.
Ryan
I just left the meeting that the Snowy Range Snowmobile Association held for the Order pertaining to the rules of only being able to ride from November 30th to May 30! There was 3 people from the Forest Service that came and talked about the Order and why it was put in place! There was a lot of Snowmobilers that came to the meeting, it was a very good turn out and they said they were surprised at how many people came to support the sport and protest this order. So as far as attendance goes, it was impressive to see all the people there! The Snowmobilers gave a lot of valid points to the forest service of why these rules aren't going to help anything and they are just going to hurt a lot of businesses and take away a lot of money from the surrounding counties. The big thing was a lot of people riding during Thanksgiving and people coming from the Mid Western States such Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota Etc. coming out to ride Over Thanksgiving and with this Order in effect, you could not do this.
1.) The 12 inch rule, meaning if there is not 12 inches of snow, you cannot ride off trail. Which most of the snowmobilers have no problem with. It seems kinda of like a common sense rule, if there isn't very much snow you probably wont be riding trail because you don't want to take out an a-arm or damage your sled!
2.) The Dates that they put in place, The forest service did not really have a good reason why these dates were put in place, they tried to say that they put the Nov. 30 date in effect because of the Cow/Calf Hunting season, but the snowmobilers quickly shut that down by saying that by that time, the elk and other animals had migrated to lower elevation because they do not want to compete with deep snow and snowmobilers are riding up higher where there is more snow, so essential the elk are not the problem and they also said that they put this rule in place because people were riding really early season and damaging the ground and wilderness, but if they said that you had to have 12 inches of snow to ride off trail, that would eliminate this problem and you would not have to have the dates in place. They did not really have a reason for why the May 30th date is there and a lot of snowmobilers gave really good points of why there should be no dates set in place.
This is kind of all of the place, but I tried to write this with giving a lot of detail in a couple of short paragraphs.
All in all the Snowmobilers gave a lot of good points and the Forest Service seemed take them in to consideration. So hopefully they get things figured out and let us ride.
Ryan
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It was good to see a solid turn out. There was a lot of good discussion.
One thing I noticed is we (as snowmobilers) may not have the most unified idea of what we want. Tonight there were guys saying the depth clause is the issue because it leaves too much up to the enforcement officer's discretion, while others (probably most) were frustrated more with the date restrictions.
Those that want us out of the public lands have a simple, no compromise agenda that they all seem to agree on. I think there is strength in that. We would benefit if we decide, effectively in unison, that we want "X". Now I'm not sure what that X is, but if we can decide on that and push it hard, we should be heard and just may have this go in a favorable manner. This will, unfortunately, likely involve compromise(s). It was pointed out, very clearly to the FS, that as motorized users we are the ones that stand to lose out in every interaction with the FS while other user groups are always "gaining", usually by kicking us out for their exclusive use of what is PUBLIC land.
So what is our "X" on the new rules?
1. Do we want to argue against the snow depth clause?
I suspect most anyone can agree on a 12" rule (call it the A-arm rule). This does need to be more clear in the writing of the law. It should read something along the lines of: "Cross country operation of an OSV is prohibited if the snow depth in the immediate vicinity or directly under the OSV is less than 12" of depth WITH the exception of shallower, supportive snow such that the OSV causes no erosion or other subsequenct damage to the soil"
My take on the 12" rule is that most all of us agree a foot of fresh isn't enough to ride off trail. My gut reaction is this is a prime example of the government making new laws for the sake of new laws, but if worded correctly shouldn't cause us any grief.
2. Do we want to argue against the date limitations?
This is the frustrating portion of the new rule. As it stands, there could be 4+ feet off trail, and we can't ride it until December (I realize sometimes 4' is not enough-all fluff- and other times it's plenty). Similarly, after a great winter, there could be a 60" base left up top in June and we have to call it a season because "now it's the skiers turn". WTF is that.
The new rules are meant to prevent user group conflicts. In the fall this is clearly with hunters, in the spring it is apparently so the skiers can ski Medicine Bow Peak once the road opens. First, consider the hunters. Imagine it's November 15th, 40" of snow has fallen in the last week on top of a firm 20" base, Joe Blow is hunting a cow elk...and he is no where near the 60" of snow....because the elk have all migrated to the shallower snow where no sledders want to ride, there is no conflict in this case: the hunter & sledder are segregated by their own free will whether the sledder is on or off trail. Now consider a different year: November 15th, there is only 10" of firm snow, so no one wants to ride off trail but a few guys are doing some road rides for break in. The hunters are everywhere on the mountain. The sledders stay on the 1300miles of roads/trails (this was claimed by the FS tonight as the amount of legal roads/trails open to us between June1-Nov30) and yet they still piss off the hunters because these roads absolutely cover the Snowy Range so the hunters are never more than a mile from a road with a sled on it, and so now there is a conflict even though everyone is following the rules. This scenario was pointed out by Steve Marlenee, to illustrate the point that this new set of rules doesn't accomplish a damn thing.
Another man from Windsor, CO said sure let's have a minimum depth requirement, but to hell with the dates. He said he had no qualm with a 24" (or 30") off trail depth requirement so long as it was determined in a similar fashion as I discussed above (under the sled/immediate vicinity). His thought was that this depth requirement would help segregate the sledders & hunters (hunters go lower when it starts getting deep, we go higher) while not cutting into our opportunities to ride off trial if the conditions warranted. And below 24" we probably don't want to ride off trail anyway (back to the A-arm rule).
One thing that seemed to be confused among several sledders at the meeting was that there is no rule for riding a sled on a road. They seemed concerned about the legality of riding on the frequently thin trails to access the goods, but if you go by the law, you can dirt ride your sled on the trails, just not off trail.
Thoughts?
One thing I noticed is we (as snowmobilers) may not have the most unified idea of what we want. Tonight there were guys saying the depth clause is the issue because it leaves too much up to the enforcement officer's discretion, while others (probably most) were frustrated more with the date restrictions.
Those that want us out of the public lands have a simple, no compromise agenda that they all seem to agree on. I think there is strength in that. We would benefit if we decide, effectively in unison, that we want "X". Now I'm not sure what that X is, but if we can decide on that and push it hard, we should be heard and just may have this go in a favorable manner. This will, unfortunately, likely involve compromise(s). It was pointed out, very clearly to the FS, that as motorized users we are the ones that stand to lose out in every interaction with the FS while other user groups are always "gaining", usually by kicking us out for their exclusive use of what is PUBLIC land.
So what is our "X" on the new rules?
1. Do we want to argue against the snow depth clause?
I suspect most anyone can agree on a 12" rule (call it the A-arm rule). This does need to be more clear in the writing of the law. It should read something along the lines of: "Cross country operation of an OSV is prohibited if the snow depth in the immediate vicinity or directly under the OSV is less than 12" of depth WITH the exception of shallower, supportive snow such that the OSV causes no erosion or other subsequenct damage to the soil"
My take on the 12" rule is that most all of us agree a foot of fresh isn't enough to ride off trail. My gut reaction is this is a prime example of the government making new laws for the sake of new laws, but if worded correctly shouldn't cause us any grief.
2. Do we want to argue against the date limitations?
This is the frustrating portion of the new rule. As it stands, there could be 4+ feet off trail, and we can't ride it until December (I realize sometimes 4' is not enough-all fluff- and other times it's plenty). Similarly, after a great winter, there could be a 60" base left up top in June and we have to call it a season because "now it's the skiers turn". WTF is that.
The new rules are meant to prevent user group conflicts. In the fall this is clearly with hunters, in the spring it is apparently so the skiers can ski Medicine Bow Peak once the road opens. First, consider the hunters. Imagine it's November 15th, 40" of snow has fallen in the last week on top of a firm 20" base, Joe Blow is hunting a cow elk...and he is no where near the 60" of snow....because the elk have all migrated to the shallower snow where no sledders want to ride, there is no conflict in this case: the hunter & sledder are segregated by their own free will whether the sledder is on or off trail. Now consider a different year: November 15th, there is only 10" of firm snow, so no one wants to ride off trail but a few guys are doing some road rides for break in. The hunters are everywhere on the mountain. The sledders stay on the 1300miles of roads/trails (this was claimed by the FS tonight as the amount of legal roads/trails open to us between June1-Nov30) and yet they still piss off the hunters because these roads absolutely cover the Snowy Range so the hunters are never more than a mile from a road with a sled on it, and so now there is a conflict even though everyone is following the rules. This scenario was pointed out by Steve Marlenee, to illustrate the point that this new set of rules doesn't accomplish a damn thing.
Another man from Windsor, CO said sure let's have a minimum depth requirement, but to hell with the dates. He said he had no qualm with a 24" (or 30") off trail depth requirement so long as it was determined in a similar fashion as I discussed above (under the sled/immediate vicinity). His thought was that this depth requirement would help segregate the sledders & hunters (hunters go lower when it starts getting deep, we go higher) while not cutting into our opportunities to ride off trial if the conditions warranted. And below 24" we probably don't want to ride off trail anyway (back to the A-arm rule).
One thing that seemed to be confused among several sledders at the meeting was that there is no rule for riding a sled on a road. They seemed concerned about the legality of riding on the frequently thin trails to access the goods, but if you go by the law, you can dirt ride your sled on the trails, just not off trail.
Thoughts?
Thank you to everyone that came to the meeting. I think the FS left with the impression that the dates were the problem with their new order. They will be visiting with the ranger over in Saratoga then taking it to their boss. With any luck this will happen in the next week. We will release a full detailed report of the meeting in the next few days. In the meantime Frank Romero of the FS said the best way to address this is with letters and emails. Calls help but with written documents there is proof of contact.
Franks email is: feromero@fs.fed.us
Frank is willing to listen and he will read your email. They also said please present facts.
If you prefer to send a letter send it to the FS office in Laramie
Thanks to the Forest service for taking the time to come and speak with us.
Thank you to the Holiday Inn for hosting the event
Thank you to the 80+ people who showed up to support the sport of snowmobiling! Everyone that gave their comments and did so in a professional and respectful manner. (I truly believe this went a long ways with the Forest Service representatives.)
We will keep all updated as we move forward.
Franks email is: feromero@fs.fed.us
Frank is willing to listen and he will read your email. They also said please present facts.
If you prefer to send a letter send it to the FS office in Laramie
Thanks to the Forest service for taking the time to come and speak with us.
Thank you to the Holiday Inn for hosting the event
Thank you to the 80+ people who showed up to support the sport of snowmobiling! Everyone that gave their comments and did so in a professional and respectful manner. (I truly believe this went a long ways with the Forest Service representatives.)
We will keep all updated as we move forward.
Email sent! Presented the facts on economic loss from our group of 8 alone that will cancel a Thanksgiving trip if this policy is in place. Per above, taking the emotion out of your response and presenting these types of facts is what will make the difference.
Exactly what we need NewMy1! Facts are what they want!
Like Keith (KT19) said above, we will be working over the weekend to get our response as a club done and will be sure to share! So look for more info early next week. It is very important that we right letters and they even stated last night they can't do anything to change the order unless they have written documentation!
Like Keith (KT19) said above, we will be working over the weekend to get our response as a club done and will be sure to share! So look for more info early next week. It is very important that we right letters and they even stated last night they can't do anything to change the order unless they have written documentation!
You can still join the club in Wyoming but don't get fooled into thinking you only need to defend the area you want to ride. We have to defend all snowmobiling areas even if it's not of particular interest to you. Because by the time they are focused square on your favorite riding spot they'll possibly have too much momentum to stop. Join your state association and/or ACSA
Everyone keeps focusing on what rule is acceptable. Are we beyond challenging that a rule needs to exist?
B
BoondockinDragon
Active member
Was there any talk about parking issues?
The 2003 forest plan outlines over the snow travel and in doing so allows the Forest service to implement rules on such things as Resource Damage, Public Safety, and apparently User conflict. Special Orders can and are done for a number of different reasons and do not need to have a comment period or any public input for that matter. They typically only last a max of 5 years, and can be changed at anytime.
So with that, yes we are pretty much beyond convincing them that it is a bad think. At the meeting last night 90% of the comments went against the date time frame they had set, and a few against how and where they determine the 12".
Most everyone agreed that 12" is a fine number to go with, but remove or modify the date and how it was worded.
As for the rule it may not be all a bad thing. With what WWA is doing in Idaho, this may actually help protect us from the same sort of law suit here. With this rule, they are actually choosing to manage OSV rather than ignore it.
I believe our best course of action is to get it changed in our favor and remove the date limitations. Most of us won't ride on much less than 12" off trail anyway.
A guy or two brought up the parking issues, but everyone wanted to stay on topic of the agenda of snow depths and riding dates.
We got word yesterday that this was coming!
The MBNF has released an update to the Special Order limiting OSV travel off trail. https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5440749.pdf
While it does give Snowmobile travel an extra 15 days in November we still loose June on good snow years.
The MBNF has released an update to the Special Order limiting OSV travel off trail. https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5440749.pdf
While it does give Snowmobile travel an extra 15 days in November we still loose June on good snow years.
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