I thought I was the only one. its eerie how similar we are... I swear youre one of my sled buddies just playing a prank on me.
Lead Acid or Lithium Snow bike Battery?
- Thread starter RmK8oo
- Start date
I thought I was the only one. its eerie how similar we are... I swear youre one of my sled buddies just playing a prank on me.
It is bizarre isnt it? Thats why I wonder if its the programming of the PR2. The fact that we have the same bike with the same problem is something we probably shouldn't ignore.
Lots of people have big bores, so I dont think its the fact that we have that.
Dooman, I am wondering if you can help me a little more. I tried your procedure to test the voltage drop. I set my multimeter up as you described as an alternate path from the positive battery terminal to the positive connection on the starter. Without hitting the start button my MM already was reading 13.25. This made me nervous that I was doing it wrong and so I disconnected it without hitting the button.
My MM is an Innova 3300 and I have it set to "10 megOhm Input Impedence, at the setting of 20. Is that right?
Innova 3300 Digital Multimeter | Canadian Tire
Innova 3300 Digital Multimeter can safely and accurately troubleshoot a variety of automotive and household electrical problems | Canadian Tirewww.canadiantire.ca
Allhatnocattle, great observation shows your thinking about it as you hook things up. Let's think about it. You have one (positive lead) connected to the positive batt terminal and the negative lead at the starter on the insulated terminal and you see battery voltage on the meter. Just the same as connecting at the battery. Why? What is on the other side of that starter terminal.........windings that eventually connect back to the negative terminal of the battery via the ground circuit. So it is the same as hooking at the battery. In the bikes starting circuit you have the starter relay that completes the circuit so current only flows when you push the button and close that relay. The voltmeter has internal resistance and flows essential no current it measures voltage or electrical pressure. So, your good. When you push the button to start you complete the starting circuit and connect the battery to the starter. Hopefully there is no resistance in that circuit so all the current/voltage flows thru the bikes circuit and starves the voltmeter of voltage (pressure) because the bikes circuit is the path of least resistance and the voltmeter shows 0 or a few tenths of a volt. If there is a poor connection, small wire, bad contacts those will show as voltage on the meter when the engine is cranking. I hope that made sence. Go for it and report back!
Ok now that you explain it, that makes complete sense! I just did the test and thankfully I had all the settings right. It read 13.75 just sitting there, and when I hold down the starter it drops to .40.
How does that sound?
Thanks again for all your help... I owe you a beer!
I wish I was getting 13.75.
heres my numbers (so far.. more testing to come). came to the shop, resting after last ride it was 13.0v. I hooked the battery tender up, started at 25% light flashing but quickly went to 75-100% flashing and went to 13.3v max. thats the max ill ever see it seems. see video, this is a cold start.
tried a few times with the choke on (red knob pulled out) and it wasnt going. waited a few seconds for battery self warm (wasnt even cold... like 5C?) and then decided to turn the choke off and it finally fired up. at idle the battery voltage was still 13.1 or so.
also, I have confirmed that the multimeter on the battery post is the same as what the voyager displays.
heres my numbers (so far.. more testing to come). came to the shop, resting after last ride it was 13.0v. I hooked the battery tender up, started at 25% light flashing but quickly went to 75-100% flashing and went to 13.3v max. thats the max ill ever see it seems. see video, this is a cold start.
tried a few times with the choke on (red knob pulled out) and it wasnt going. waited a few seconds for battery self warm (wasnt even cold... like 5C?) and then decided to turn the choke off and it finally fired up. at idle the battery voltage was still 13.1 or so.
also, I have confirmed that the multimeter on the battery post is the same as what the voyager displays.
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All hat, that is not too bad. I would feel better with .20. I can't find any spec for electrical stuff on bikes. Comparable tests would help. I will test mine tomorrow. Is that the bikes stock circuit no changes in wire size etc? Also try the ground circuit, positive on starter case, negative on negative battery and crank. Checks ground circuit. You have to add both for total voltage drop in the circuit.
all hat, can you make a video like I did. a cold start video, possibly one showing your voltages the whole time like I did?
do you have a 90w stator? how can I tell how much juice my stator is putting out? is it the same output at idle as it as high RPM?
do you have a 90w stator? how can I tell how much juice my stator is putting out? is it the same output at idle as it as high RPM?
Cory, your bike sounds EXACTLY like mine when I start it. Just a ton of turning over and then finally it just goes. Obviously when it is colder out (-15c) it turns over slower and struggles to start even more.
Ok thank you I will try your other test tomorrow.
The starting system is all stock, but I do have a lot of other electrical "stuff" on there. Heated grips, connections for boosting, headlights etc. None of that is on when I am starting it of course.
Sure I can do that. I will have to do it tomorrow though. The thing is... you have the multimeter hooked up to the two battery terminals, not to the starter as Dooman had said? Is that what you want me to do?
I just have the stock stator, whatever that is?
yeah my multimeter was just hooked up like that to confirm the voyager is accurate. I wanted to get the cold start over with on a resting battery before I started tinkering with his tests.
then I went off the voyager the whole time.. same thing really. but if you say yours is the exact same as mine then theres not much else to see.
if youve got the stock stator thats interesting. its like 30W on the sxf and most of that is for the bikes electrical... there sure isnt much for other stuff, especially stuff like heated grips that take like 40w alone on high!!!! plus the light, etc.... I was draining my battery mid ride with grips on high and led headlight on. wouldnt e start, needed a boost mid ride. so I upgraded stator, AND ended up removing everything.
Ricky Stator on TT said regarding the sxf450: "You can only run about 20 watts stock before it starts to draw on the battery. " so how are you not killing your battery with all that stuff on? have you looked into your brand of grips and done the math on how much power it needs?
then I went off the voyager the whole time.. same thing really. but if you say yours is the exact same as mine then theres not much else to see.
if youve got the stock stator thats interesting. its like 30W on the sxf and most of that is for the bikes electrical... there sure isnt much for other stuff, especially stuff like heated grips that take like 40w alone on high!!!! plus the light, etc.... I was draining my battery mid ride with grips on high and led headlight on. wouldnt e start, needed a boost mid ride. so I upgraded stator, AND ended up removing everything.
Ricky Stator on TT said regarding the sxf450: "You can only run about 20 watts stock before it starts to draw on the battery. " so how are you not killing your battery with all that stuff on? have you looked into your brand of grips and done the math on how much power it needs?
Well I bought the bike with these grips and a light installed from a dealer/friend. He said that I could only run the grips on low OR the light full time. I listened to him for the first year and then forgot all about it the second year (last year). Last year I went out on a very cold day and had my grips on high for most of the day, which did indeed kill my battery mid ride, which was a real pain in the butt.
I asked the guy who sold me the bike about it and he reminded me that I could not run the grips on high full time. Annoyed and remembering my freezing hands that day after the battery died, I installed coolant heated bars so I dont need the electric grips. I also bought a light that apparently draws a smaller amount so I should theoretically be able to run the light all the time. I have never really turned my light on to be honest.
wow, almost the exact same as me again. it was headlight, or grips on high. one or the other. I was going to install coolant heated bars too. that would be nice, and an 6" LED headlight shouldnt draw much watts at all I figured.
now that ive got a 90 watt stator I should be able to run anything and everything though. id like to test and see what the stator it putting out for watts though. I dont think my multimeter does that.
now that ive got a 90 watt stator I should be able to run anything and everything though. id like to test and see what the stator it putting out for watts though. I dont think my multimeter does that.
Cory, nice job with video. Couple of thoughts. Your starter is ok. Your battery is ok. While cranking your battery voltage held around 11 and above. That tells us the battery has good output, and the starter is not drawing high amounts of current that pulls down battery voltage abnormally. I would still do the voltage drop tests because reducing any resistance found in those circuits would help the cranking.
Tender voltage of 13 ok. If you let the bike run for along time without much draw on the system I'm assuming it still doesn't climb above 13.1. Because voltage is lowest when the battery is discharged (after cranking)
and the system is putting current back in the battery or when drawing current for heated grips, lights etc. The voltage goes up as the battery recharges to its full charge. We don't want to evaluate the voltage output of the regulator until the battery is fully charged with little or no load on the system. The voltage is the pressure that pushes the current back into the battery. As the battery gets more charged it gets harder to push current in so the voltage increases as the battery charges. If after an hour or so of continuous engine running with no load on the system it still says 13, the regulator is at fault.
I checked my 18 500 exc today. After cranking it was about 13.5 as it ran the voltage slowly increased to 14.6 after about 5-10 minutes running.
The pr2 could effect starting. That's why I asked about fuel on the plug. It does not sound like it was flooding when it started. I have pr2 vortex on my 500 and it starts excellent. Unfortunately, I don't know it controls fuel on that startup.
I think both you guys should do that oil in cylinder test.
Tender voltage of 13 ok. If you let the bike run for along time without much draw on the system I'm assuming it still doesn't climb above 13.1. Because voltage is lowest when the battery is discharged (after cranking)
and the system is putting current back in the battery or when drawing current for heated grips, lights etc. The voltage goes up as the battery recharges to its full charge. We don't want to evaluate the voltage output of the regulator until the battery is fully charged with little or no load on the system. The voltage is the pressure that pushes the current back into the battery. As the battery gets more charged it gets harder to push current in so the voltage increases as the battery charges. If after an hour or so of continuous engine running with no load on the system it still says 13, the regulator is at fault.
I checked my 18 500 exc today. After cranking it was about 13.5 as it ran the voltage slowly increased to 14.6 after about 5-10 minutes running.
The pr2 could effect starting. That's why I asked about fuel on the plug. It does not sound like it was flooding when it started. I have pr2 vortex on my 500 and it starts excellent. Unfortunately, I don't know it controls fuel on that startup.
I think both you guys should do that oil in cylinder test.
I believe I am on 5 for my pr2 settings.
"If after an hour or so of continuous engine running with no load on the system it still says 13, the regulator is at fault. "
thats exactly whats happening. I can ride all day and it wont get above 13.3 at the max. very interesting that yours got to 14.6 so quick. I never see that number and think my problems would go away if I could get it that high.
I will do the voltage drop test, ive got only the trailtech voyager attached to the battery as well as my external jumper posts so there shouldnt be any parasitic draw, ive tested that before I believe.
regarding the oil in cylinder test... should I do a before and after compression test with the oil? brand new motor, rings havnt even fully seated yet.
"If after an hour or so of continuous engine running with no load on the system it still says 13, the regulator is at fault. "
thats exactly whats happening. I can ride all day and it wont get above 13.3 at the max. very interesting that yours got to 14.6 so quick. I never see that number and think my problems would go away if I could get it that high.
I will do the voltage drop test, ive got only the trailtech voyager attached to the battery as well as my external jumper posts so there shouldnt be any parasitic draw, ive tested that before I believe.
regarding the oil in cylinder test... should I do a before and after compression test with the oil? brand new motor, rings havnt even fully seated yet.
I ordered a cheap chinese voltage regulator for my bike (
77211034000
) off ebay for $17. going to test with that and see if that number will go higher than 13.3.
if it does, ill get an actual OEM regulator ($121!!!)
77211034000
) off ebay for $17. going to test with that and see if that number will go higher than 13.3.
if it does, ill get an actual OEM regulator ($121!!!)
Cory, yes you could do the oil test as part of a compression test. Test compression without oil then add the oil and compression test again. That is one of the tests we do to determine whether it is a valve or the rings that are causing low compression in an engine. If oil raises compression in a known low compression engine it points to the rings. If it is a leaking valve the oil has little affect.
Doing it that way just doesn't give the immediate feedback of a little oil prior to startup.
By raising the charging voltage of your system you would be able to charge a lithium ion battery a little more completely. You might get an additional 10-15% out of it. As for the lead acid yz7, 14 volts will charge it faster but not quite as much increased output as l-ion. By raising the voltage limit you would get a few more watts out of the stator also. I'm not sure that's going to make it start better. But, it will crank a little longer.
Doing it that way just doesn't give the immediate feedback of a little oil prior to startup.
By raising the charging voltage of your system you would be able to charge a lithium ion battery a little more completely. You might get an additional 10-15% out of it. As for the lead acid yz7, 14 volts will charge it faster but not quite as much increased output as l-ion. By raising the voltage limit you would get a few more watts out of the stator also. I'm not sure that's going to make it start better. But, it will crank a little longer.
Cory, the PR2 on my FX/Yamaha made it extremely difficult to start cold. Started no problem warm. With my stock ECU my bike started cold no problem. Can you try your stock ECU and see if there’s any difference? Just a thought. Hope you get it figured out.
