Last year for the Suzuki 1100 now what
- Thread starter Arctic Thunder
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Bingo! All they have to do is make a sled within 20lbs of a modern 2 stroke. All they have to do is make it 150hp at elevation and that would be more HP at elevation then any 2 stroke from the factory!! But wait. What the hell are we talking about. Why don't they just boost a 800cc 2 stroke??? Then where would this conversation be?!?!?
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Turbo11T
Well-known member
So 150 hp. Lets look at the phazer engine just as a idea because it is the only engine that is near what we are talking about.
Supercharger or turbo this engine would make about 140 hp. This engine was on the edge at that. I think that this engine in a cat chassis would be under 500 right now.
So the reality of this would not be such a motor that replaced the 1100t but a motor that could potentially replace 50% of the 800 and 600's. 150 hp at elevation would not be a replacement for the 1100t guys. But it would be an engine that could find a place in the garage of some former 800 owners. It could likely be 30hp than most 800's at higher elevation.
Not a bad dream to have but hard to know if it becomes a reality. Believe it or not companies like cat spend a lot of money in the marketing department to make decisions on what to ask engineering to design.
Still what motor replaces the 1100t? A lot of 1100t owners making over 215 hp at elevation according to my poll. I don't think many of them would take the weight loss to lose 60lbs.
Well... there's a reason 4 strokes need to advance. we just can't keep making 2 strokes and certainly can't make them boosted stock. The 2 stroke as much as I like them, is a breed that has it's days numbered... it just is what it is unfortunately.
Honestly, 150HP in a sled I had to spend just a few bucks to get in the weight range with our 8's would be a MONSTER seller imo. Right now though MOST people ride a 4 stroke (stock or close) and they see that it's notably heavier & less agile. Eliminate that whining point and you'd have a winner, even if it didn't make big power stock like the 11T. Give people a few hundred buck flash or simple upgrade to get up to 180 or so...oh man, that would be an awesome sled.
The current problem, that still isn't addressed even in a build like snopromod has, is the fact that the extra weight is in the motor, and that's the place you can't take it away from without HUGE money.
In order to have a balanced machine, the motor HAS to be lighter, HP can only compensate so much.
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snopromod
Well-known member
Ok I believe now this back on track, backcountry take this into consideration. Sport bikes run basically the same motor if it is centralized and lowered to the right position it takes the extra weight out of factor. I am 100% truthful when I say this that there is over 3000 miles tested so far of this same motor minus 15lbs. And 170hp! So with those upgrades next year to my build will put motor to motor comparison 10lbs apart with once again insane torque difference!
It's getting closer, just needs another season of testing.
It's getting closer, just needs another season of testing.
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Turbo11T
Well-known member
I would tend to agree. The engine is going to weigh x and even if the chassis is light as the pro you still added 50lbs in the front of the chassis. I think your post may be best called "which 4 stroke will replace the 800?"
The big boy, big hp 1100 turbo and turbo nytro engines guys will not be happy with the 150hp class 4 stroke in a 800 weight class. Some will but many that have been on 260+ hp will not be excited. It is two types of different riding.
Bingo. 2 different riding types. 2s guys can't believe we put up with the weight and we could never only have 125hp at elevation after what we are used to riding. I shall start a new thread lol.
Thing is though, CURRENTLY if we want the power you guys have, we just have to put a turbo on our 8's, and we're close in power without the weight gain. Right now, for a guy who is willing to boost an 8 (and I've got a TON of trouble free miles on my RG 8's) there's minimal motivation to switch. I guess my comments are more geared toward like 11t said, how to "replace" the 8 with a 4 stroke, since it will need to happen eventually. I think it's possible, but not with the 11 or the nytro motor imo... though the nytro motor has some promise developmentally as a platform that can be lightened. I still feel though that a twin in the smaller size range would do well, though I don't know how a twin 800 4 would take to boost, never spent time on one.
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Correct. By just popping a turbo on you get close to a stock 4s power, minus the torquey feel. The measured weight difference we found on a scale between a stock TM8 and a stock 1100t was 65lbs rtr. if I spend your turbo kit money on lightweight and a reflash I'm within 20lbs of the TM8 and now have at least 40hp more again. We done this game in our shop for 2 years now.
I know we have done more of these 2 different sled builds than anyone. The thing that will be interesting for me is when we offer our Evo plug and play 2s turbo kit how that affects the other 2 choices we do now.
I know we have done more of these 2 different sled builds than anyone. The thing that will be interesting for me is when we offer our Evo plug and play 2s turbo kit how that affects the other 2 choices we do now.
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Arctic Thunder
Well-known member
Until one of the manufacturers figures out how to get the performance from a 4s with the weight of a 2s, I think most people will still go with a 2s, just for the weight savings and the cost of repair.
Until they just quit making a solid 2s mountain sled, I will be on one. (I know save this comment in the I told you so file) But I just can't tolerate the weight when their are other options, and yep, those options aren't in the cat lineup. I am not that brand loyal.
As for different riding styles. I say BS, say whatever it takes to enjoy riding the big girl. IMO it doesn't matter if I am trail riding, railing the corners or, boondocking through the trees, I want HP, and I want it light.
So again what will AC/Yam have in this market? I am ok with bolt on upgrade parts as long as they work.
Thunder
Until they just quit making a solid 2s mountain sled, I will be on one. (I know save this comment in the I told you so file) But I just can't tolerate the weight when their are other options, and yep, those options aren't in the cat lineup. I am not that brand loyal.
As for different riding styles. I say BS, say whatever it takes to enjoy riding the big girl. IMO it doesn't matter if I am trail riding, railing the corners or, boondocking through the trees, I want HP, and I want it light.
So again what will AC/Yam have in this market? I am ok with bolt on upgrade parts as long as they work.
Thunder
You can "lose weight" all you want though, and the issue as mentioned above remains. you take away 65 lbs from the chassis, and the motor is still where the weight is. This makes the sled ill handling (IMO) and less likely to be a sled people enjoy riding. You can compensate all you want, but this is why I feel a lighter MOTOR with the compromises that brings in HP would make it more of an all around sled.
Look at all the people switching to the PRO... that sled is proving that handling trumps power. You can gain power all you want, but a balanced feeling sled is something that is irreplaceable.
I'm not trying to bag on 4's here, I'm saying that the general goal of the 4's out there now perhaps need a different eye on them in terms of what the end goal is. I could add 40 lbs to the BACK of my sled & still love it, but you add 20 to the front & it's a whole different game.
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snopromod
Well-known member
"I'm not trying to bag on 4's here, I'm saying that the general goal of the 4's out there now perhaps need a different eye on them in terms of what the end goal is. I could add 40 lbs to the BACK of my sled & still love it, but you add 20 to the front & it's a whole different game." Backcountryforlife
Now put that 40lbs between your feet and you will never notice the difference. Again about balance, what makes the pro so great is not the fact it's light, it's because they took the weight centered it, and lowered it so it is easier to throw around. At the end of the day (4s or 2s) it's all about balance point and power to weight ratio. The 4s motors are not as heavy as you think it's all the added garbage they have to put on for EPA, my nytro motor on scale compared to Polaris (600ho motor) was 28lbs heavier. Not bad if you ask me.
If I rode cat I would be very excited about the Genesis motor going in those sleds going to be a great step forward for the future
Now put that 40lbs between your feet and you will never notice the difference. Again about balance, what makes the pro so great is not the fact it's light, it's because they took the weight centered it, and lowered it so it is easier to throw around. At the end of the day (4s or 2s) it's all about balance point and power to weight ratio. The 4s motors are not as heavy as you think it's all the added garbage they have to put on for EPA, my nytro motor on scale compared to Polaris (600ho motor) was 28lbs heavier. Not bad if you ask me.
If I rode cat I would be very excited about the Genesis motor going in those sleds going to be a great step forward for the future
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Hillclimbpro
Well-known member
So your saying a tm8 race gas kit is only putting out 177hp!?!?
HA... yeah, didn't notice the "stock" comment... not even close. anyone who has a boosted 8 and is only making 177 hp is unfortunately not doing their pocketbook proud.
Snopromod, I agree... balance it right & it's a whole new game, and 28 lbs (compared to what is known to be a very light motor) is pretty forgivable. I can lose 28 lbs up front reasonable easy, 65, not so much.
What sucks for the average consumer is how this will affect cost of the sled. Building a compact, lightweight 4 stroke is possible. It is just going to raise the price of the sled by $2k.
What would you say an average reliable rg tm8 is putting out at 8000 - 10,000 ft? We are talking at elevation as that is where we ride right? And I did say close to the same power.....
I agree the balance of a 4s and a 2s, even at the same weight, is different. I've rode 1100s that are lighter than a stock m8. It feels different, I also notice the power as you would expect.
Hey, I'm not bagging on 2s
But I personally will deal with the balance and weight downsides to have the power and reliability upsides. Hell i rode a tapex for 4 years and helped developed a tm8 kit. One sled will never make everyone happy, we all know that, nor will anyone convince someone that their ideal sled is better than the other guys. The great news is you don't have to either.
What would you say an average reliable rg tm8 is putting out at 8000 - 10,000 ft? We are talking at elevation as that is where we ride right? And I did say close to the same power.....
I agree the balance of a 4s and a 2s, even at the same weight, is different. I've rode 1100s that are lighter than a stock m8. It feels different, I also notice the power as you would expect.
Hey, I'm not bagging on 2s
I would hope a race gas m8 on 110 octane fuel on 14psi of boost would be around 230-240hp @ 9000ft
Wasnt thinking reliable 14lb kit so much lol. More 9-11 on av kind of kit. Not that you can't obviously but most guys I know that have rg kits arent running 14lbs.
40lbs is pretty straight forward weight loss on an 1100.
40lbs is pretty straight forward weight loss on an 1100.
Well they should be!!! 14 lbs isn't crazy. That's the lower end of race gas boost I would say.
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