iBackshift clutch for technical tree riding Gen 5 na

[Driver]

Did you ever ask any, even one, if they are allowed to? Pick a rider. Take your clutch setup, whether its yours or someone else's and go up to them in person, or at least talk on the phone, saying "here, try this setup". Make a reach out, so its voice to voice, in person, or, on the phone and get a response. Not email, not dm's, no... Your voice is heard by their ears and vise versa.

Like this one famous guy I asked [and ive known him since our Acat days] said he couldn't if he wanted to because it would offend his clutch guy. Oh boy..., I never thought of that. His clutch guy is a great guy. Ok ol' chum, I understand, I dont want to offend him either.
Some riders say "naw, i have the sled the way im used to it and dont want to change anything right now".
And, some riders just wont tell you, saying, "its stock".

Those "pro" level riders [your words], the skill gap and/or what they particularly do, repeatedly do such-and-such moves. They are at a level, which [your-word] "pro", that's not the skill degree or use for a good market position, even for a focused group of mountain riders only. You can't broad brush saying everyone [thousands of summit owners in "the mountains"] needs the settings you think pros are using or what you yourself want; even when it comes to "tree riding".

Driver]...etc, dont fit very well to technical riding where you want the sled to be revvy and light feeling.
Joe] Ok, so now so-n-so guy is running what you said to run. Gives it a fair shot for 2~3 tanks of gas. Comes back saying he doesn't want it to be so "revvy". Now what?

• Tell him to "get used to it", or...
• Tell him to "you need to learn how to ride the machine", or...
• Tell him "well, it works for us", or...
• leave him, or
• Help him, or...?

Yer demanding perfection according to your own style of riding.
With my kit, a customer has to start out somewhere. The rider has to go out for a tank of gas or two to get their sea-legs with it, so they can get their poise with the new conduct of the sled. Sort out the dislikes from the likes and then if needed, can make a tuning change. Some people want lower engagement than 3000. I get guys who want 4000 rpms. Ok, I can do that.

All the springs are on my website
Clutch kit standard spring is the red primary spring is 100/360 @ 2900ish

If someone wants higher engage I have a 130 start @ 32~3300
If someone wants a higher engage I have a 150 start @ 35~3600
If someone wants a higher engage I have a 170 start @ 3800
If someone wants the lowest engage I have a 70 pound start @ 2600 rpms

If one wants more "revvy", can also change the primary clutch ramp. I have options.
We have all 5[five] BRP turbo ramp models in stock. [there's not 3, there's 5 (five)]
I even made my own ramp. A 57 gram turbo ramp.
My product line has 6 x 850 turbo ramps to choose from.
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The absolute #1 reason I made those ramps is because of some of the competition. The small handful of people pis-n-moanin about my clutch kit who've never run a full tank of gas with it. hahahaha. Serious,
A guy wants revvy. Ok, you got it.
Want less pivot bolt weight. Ok, you got it.

This is a great answer Joe, thanks for that. Nothing but a respect for all of your work!

Driver]...etc, dont fit very well to technical riding where you want the sled to be revvy and light feeling.

Joe] Ok, so now so-n-so guy is running what you said to run. Gives it a fair shot for 2~3 tanks of gas. Comes back saying he doesn't want it to be so "revvy". Now what?

Tell him to "get used to it", or...
Tell him to "you need to learn how to ride the machine", or...
Tell him "well, it works for us", or...
leave him, or
Help him, or...?

Well if I would be in this for the money, I would definately help until the customer is satisfied. But as its just a hobby for me I dont have a stress like that.

But lets say the sled is too revvy and rider wants to tame it down, I would advice to increse weight and step up with the cliker. Then you get more linear rpm and heavier engagment while preserving the wanted rpm range.

In my opinion, you first need to know what qualities you want out from the powertrain and how you like to ride. So first you choose the cliker position and the work with weight and maybe springs to achieve that.

But I never tell people what they should want, but make them think and consider if the way that they are on is correct for the desired outcome. Is this modification actually good or bad for my riding?

Those heavy loading setups will win drag races up the hill and pop some nice wheelies on the top, but for slow speeds technical treeriding and tricks it can make maneuvering really hard. This is what Im trying to say. And this is the same topic Im debating with old school tuners in real life too. For them its hard to understand that maximum weight, track speed and acceleration isnt allways desired outcome.

 

[High Voltage]

I have been using a finger throttle the last three years and if I don’t want maximum track speed I back off the gas a little, and when I get on it I want the clutch to let me get to my desired rpm quickly and hold it while picking up track speed.

 

[Driver]

Driver whose clutch kit would you recommend, if you were to run one .

No easy answer on this, maybe I would try to find local cluching specialist who knows the local conditions and can do a proper setup suited for your riding style and terrain.

If I had to go online and order something, first I would carefully read the information that manufacturer is providing. What does this clutch kit ecxatly provide? Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference if they do the type of riding I want and what kind of conditions it is used.

I would like to challenge all clutch kit manufacturers to give straight out facts instead of marketing bs. I know one kit cannot deliver it all: throttle response, track response, maximum acceleration, light revving/feelin, backshift, etc. Its allways a compromise, period. Simply not possible that everything is great and best there is. So tell us what are the qualities your kit is leaning towards in.

 

[duncan76]

The poor original poster is probably just going to sell his sled and get some snow shoes by the time he gets through this

 

[jcjc1]

No easy answer on this, maybe I would try to find local cluching specialist who knows the local conditions and can do a proper setup suited for your riding style and terrain.

If I had to go online and order something, first I would carefully read the information that manufacturer is providing. What does this clutch kit ecxatly provide? Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference if they do the type of riding I want and what kind of conditions it is used.

I would like to challenge all clutch kit manufacturers to give straight out facts instead of marketing bs. I know one kit cannot deliver it all: throttle response, track response, maximum acceleration, light revving/feelin, backshift, etc. Its allways a compromise, period. Simply not possible that everything is great and best there is. So tell us what are the qualities your kit is leaning towards in.

joe is the antithesis of marketing bs and is why i go with his products plus his appreciation and use of the scientific method.

 

[caper11]

No easy answer on this, maybe I would try to find local cluching specialist who knows the local conditions and can do a proper setup suited for your riding style and terrain.

If I had to go online and order something, first I would carefully read the information that manufacturer is providing. What does this clutch kit ecxatly provide? Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference if they do the type of riding I want and what kind of conditions it is used.

I would like to challenge all clutch kit manufacturers to give straight out facts instead of marketing bs. I know one kit cannot deliver it all: throttle response, track response, maximum acceleration, light revving/feelin, backshift, etc. Its allways a compromise, period. Simply not possible that everything is great and best there is. So tell us what are the qualities your kit is leaning towards in.

Man I dont know what your beef is, but you are ruining a good thread, at the moment you are reminding me of certain past members.

We get it you like Buzzy clutching with a lack of trackspeed. The OP asked about Ibackshift clutching, no one else’s.


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[Driver]

Man I dont know what your beef is, but you are ruining a good thread, at the moment you are reminding me of certain past members.

We get it you like Buzzy clutching with a lack of trackspeed. The OP asked about Ibackshift clutching, no one else’s.


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I have no beef with anyone, what makes you think that?

Again I see that few simple questions make many people uncomfortable. If there was nobody questioning things how could things ever evolve and get better? If im ruining peoples day by not bein a fanboy, sorry about that.

I dont doubt that most clutch kits do deliver very different kind of performance than stock. Im questioning that if these features actually make technical treeriding easier or harder.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

No easy answer on this, maybe I would try to find local cluching specialist who knows the local conditions and can do a proper setup suited for your riding style and terrain.

If I had to go online and order something, first I would carefully read the information that manufacturer is providing. What does this clutch kit ecxatly provide? Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference if they do the type of riding I want and what kind of conditions it is used.

I would like to challenge all clutch kit manufacturers to give straight out facts instead of marketing bs. I know one kit cannot deliver it all: throttle response, track response, maximum acceleration, light revving/feelin, backshift, etc. Its allways a compromise, period. Simply not possible that everything is great and best there is. So tell us what are the qualities your kit is leaning towards in.

My description can't even come close to your demand. for what it "does". And especially when I talk about the low revving at part throttle.
https://www.ibackshift.com/about/ How I describe what the kit does, is not what yer looking for as far as reading material.
its why i let reviews do the talking as there is a link to reviews on dootalk and personal emails people give me. So its not my words, its theirs; then people can be confident in what's being described, will suit them.

@Driver]Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference
@joe] this guy is in Romania @ 7500', so because hes not from 'merica, then I know he's fk-all eh. The snow he's in, is not like American mountain snow, so his video is not valid and you can see the clutching is soggy. Rpms slow to rise, track wheeling up sound is slow. Hmm, if it runs that soggy over there, then in USA when off/on throttle, it will sound worse, like a slow moo00ing cow.


What I would like to see from you is a video of your sled in the trees doing what you do for riding. Show us what level the bar is at for clutching, what it should be like, response, revvy, light feeling, backshift, etc, and what clutch kit manufactures should be achieving according to your standards.

 

[firstkitty]

drop

 

[Driver]

My description can't even come close to your demand. for what it "does". And especially when I talk about the low revving at part throttle.
https://www.ibackshift.com/about/ How I describe what the kit does, is not what yer looking for as far as reading material.
its why i let reviews do the talking as there is a link to reviews on dootalk and personal emails people give me. So its not my words, its theirs; then people can be confident in what's being described, will suit them.

@Driver]Then I would look for social media/youtube videos people riding it for reference
@joe] this guy is in Romania @ 7500', so because hes not from 'merica, then I know he's fk-all eh; local counts. The snow he's in, is not like American mountain snow, so his video is not valid and you can see the clutching is soggy. I see your point. Rpms slow to rise, track wheeling up sound is slow. Hmm, if it runs that soggy over there, then in USA when off/on throttle, it will sound worse, like a slow moo00ing cow.


What I would like to see from you is a video of your sled in the trees doing what you do for riding. Show us what level the bar is at for clutching, what it should be like, response, revvy, light feeling, backshift, etc, and what clutch kit manufactures should be achieving according to your standards.

I know its a bit unfair to link Calebs (black/red sled and blue jacket on the video) videos, that guy is not a human. Also totally different type n.a. engine unlike 850 turbos. But in my mind, this is quite close to what ideal deep snow/steep hills/treeriding setup is. Fast and light revving powertrain, gets you top of the snow quickly, makes maneuvers easier, engine balances the sled before the track speed kicks in. Besides tricks Kesterke is killing it on tight tree riding and climbs like a goat with high speed. Here in northern Europe treeriding is extremely tight, dense terrain. You need fast and responsive clutching which makes treeriding easier.

 

[kanedog]

What I would like to see from you is a video of your sled in the trees doing what you do for riding.

Driver, post a video of you riding, not someone else.

 

[firstkitty]

Oh wow that sled dangles he must have one of them fancy clutch kits with the tip weight

 

[duncan76]

In other words, post a video of the best sledder in the world, Caleb Kesterke.

Kanedog I think someone is going after your undefeated mountain clutching champ of the world badge lol

 

[Driver]

Driver, post a video of you riding, not someone else.

Joe asked to show an example video about the subject and I did. That's an excellent example of pro rider using the type of clutching I talked about. Maybe if you really watch pro riders videos and listen to engine, you might learn something.

Basic rule of the internet trolls, attack the person if you are losing the arguments.

 

[kanedog]

What I would like to see from you is a video of your sled in the trees doing what you do for riding.

Explain the above statement and then post a video of YOU riding YOUR sled In the trees. Gawd, Euros are sooooooo thick. Haha

 

[damx]

And Caleb runs bone stock polaris clutching. Well according to one of his videos.

 

[caper11]

He runs idontbackshift clutching, and rides the brake lever. He probably would run a clutch kit if he was given one. Pros league riders are like that.
Turcotte runs a clutch kit, and so does Burant.
I thought this was a doo thread?


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[Dynamo^Joe]

Joe asked to show an example video about the subject and I did. That's an excellent example of pro rider using the type of clutching I talked about. Maybe if you really watch pro riders videos and listen to engine, you might learn something.

Basic rule of the internet trolls, attack the person if you are losing the arguments.

Yer fine buddy. You did the same thing I posted; someone riding clutching were pointing out as an example.
I got to meet Caleb through emails by his friend Jon Norman [RMSHA] who used a kit i made for him for hillclimb.

There is a grand canyon gap between Caleb's skill and the rest of the market who tree ride. The requirements for Calebs clutching consists of a higher engagement clutch spring, than stock. Other than that, basically stock clutching with a little bit higher engagement speed going from the black 120/320 to a 160/310. It gets them a higher engagement speed and about 100 rpms overrev all the time in low track speeds they use.

When it comes to tree riding, what yer seeing in the video is focused on one area. "Those guys" do that category of tree riding. When I learned about tree riding, I was given a Garmin Rino just like everyone in the group had one. The leader [Jumping Jack] said "here we are on the map" and were going over here. And then go drive 16kms through the trees in Griffin.
Not everyone tears up a small patch of 800 square meters and most people don't want the abruptness of Caleb's sled. But if one does, then can make a spring change to do that same thing.
I have owners with a 850 turbo 154 & 165 who are in a wheelchair. One owner [165/3.0] who has a left arm. Has a prosthetic right arm. Throttle, brake on both on the left side, figure that one out. Have customers in their late 60's 70, and early 80s running 850 turbos.

Again; With my kit, a customer has to start out somewhere. The rider has to go out for a tank of gas or two to get their sea-legs with it, so they can get their poise with the new conduct of the sled. Sort out the dislikes from the likes and then if needed, can make a tuning change. Some people want lower engagement than 3000. I get guys who want 4000 rpms. Ok, I can do that.

All the springs are on my website
Clutch kit standard spring is the red primary spring is 100/360 @ 2900ish

If someone wants higher engage I have a 130 start @ 32~3300
If someone wants a higher engage I have a 150 start @ 35~3600
If someone wants a higher engage I have a 170 start @ 3800
If someone wants the lowest engage I have a 70 pound start @ 2600 rpms

If one wants more "revvy", can also change the primary clutch ramp. I have options.
We have all 5[five] BRP turbo ramp models in stock. [there's not 3, there's 5 (five)]
I even made my own ramp. A 57 gram turbo ramp.
My product line has 6 x 850 turbo ramps to choose from.

IF you Driver wanted to run my clutch kit, then I would ask you questions of what you want to do with it.
You tell me what the requirements are.
Then i put in the spring and/or ramps to satisfy your requirements.
Sort out the dislikes from the likes and then if needed, can make a tuning change to overcome and satisfy the dislikes.
I could make it revvy and light feeling that you may even say "oh that's too revvy". hahaha

Here is a problem that can arise with too high of engagement speed, or, too revvy.
An exhaust pipe with less temperature in it, runs a different power curve [power peak rpm] than a hot pipe temperature.
If you make the engine feel "light and revvy" or like when i was at the Acat factory, the techs would say "empty rpms". Sled engines dont run continuous full throttle in the trees. You are on throttle hard, then have to reduce throttle where the moment you reduce throttle, the pipe starts to cool. It does not take the pipe long for it to cool, and the power peak rpm, moves lower. Which is why OEM's put heat shields on, to hold heat in longer because they know the power peak rpms moves and they are trying to get it to move less. The OEM uses a spring combination that allows the engine to be quick with rpms and heat the pipe at a rate so the power peak will be at 79~8000 rpms.

You go full throttle again, the pipe temperature increases. Your exhaust pipe is cycling through a temperature range, following your throttle position. When you make the bottom end "empty rpms" and eventually the pipe gets hot to make is power peak at 8000, the engine will want to overrev. It spikes overrevving. Sure, good for Caleb, but for the rest of the market, nope.

When you make the bottom end revvy and "empty rpm" you can go right to the point of making the engine pipe surge. RAH RAH RAH. There is no practical way of driving to get the pipe to heat up to make power at its rated rpms.

In the field, sled engines accelerate from a standstill best when the clutches "shift" at an engine speed lower than the horsepower peak. On our modern big cc engines, somewhere around 650~450 rpms lower than the power peak, the clutch is pushing on the belt as close to 100% as it can; the engine continues to accelerate to its power peak 8000 rpms. You pin full throttle, the engine revs up and once it gets to anywhere from 7350~7650 rpms the clutch is pushing as hard as it can, the pipe is heating and the engine revs to 8000. [think in slow motion] When you make the engine too revvy, the clutch shift happens at a higher rpms, 7500, 7600, 7700 and feels "empty" because the pipe isnt getting heated at a rate for the moving power peak, and the clutching doesn't pull hard.

The video of my distributor in Romania, I specifically show that one to illustrate, one can have better throttle control for what he's doing, [which is most of my market] Better ability to keep the sled on its tail, augering through their wet/heavy snow, balancing, climbing because he can modulate throttle to keep himself going, the clutch backhshifts and engine can acclerate, track speed wheeling up in a manner for him to say "woooo" under his helmet.

 

[firstkitty]

not to Many bark busters in our group we avoid trees at all cost

 

[jcjc1]

learned something new-i figured the shield around the pipe was to keep under hood temps reasonable, didn't know it was to try and modulate pipe temp for engine performance.