Honest discussion about avy deaths

[skibreeze]

Since people have gotten their panties in a wad in another thread, can we have an honest discussion of what mistakes that were made?

I don't want to make assumptions about what happened, but when somebody gets buried under 20+ feet of snow, it seems pretty hard to accept that major mistakes weren't made.

I don't know anybody in the other posts, but I see a bunch of people jumping on another person for their opinion, yet the cold hard truth is being talked about in the Montana avy thread. Seems like a double standard, especially seeing a person posting in both.

 

[m8braaaap]

Unbelievable!!!

 

[OuraySledder]

Unbelievable!!!

Yes, it is becoming unbelievable to me that fellow sledders here still care enough about you to try and educate you as to why you lost a buddy, so maybe you aren't the next one.



It sure looks to me like people were in the wrong place, on the wrong day. The pictures form the Mancos incident are very telling. Nobody seems to want to say it but that slope is incredibly steep and the avy danger was high that day. I have asked that someone try to justify why they were riding that area that day but I was drowned out by the PC crowd.

Pics from CAIC website

 

[mt.aero]

I don't want to make assumptions....

Then don't. Thats the exact issue in the other thread. We do know mistakes were made, but we don't know all the facts yet. Without those facts, there can be no honest discussion.

 

[mt.aero]

I have asked that someone try to justify why they were riding that area that day but I was drowned out by the PC crowd.

I don't think anyone can deny it was steep, the avy danger was high and mistakes were made, but no one can make a justification for someone else. Unless someone here was in the riding group or is with CAIC or the sheriff's office, then no one will really know what exactly transpired.

 

[stingray719]

Its Colorado, if you look up and see an area below treeline that has NO rocks or trees its a slide area. Travel there during high avy alert and take a chance on death no matter what kind of avy gear you have. Seems pretty simple to me, its a format I have used for decades and works for me.

Tried to teach it to a friend but he and a long time rider thought they knew better and he was caught in an avy last weekend climbing what to me was an obvious avy chute. Fortunatly he survived without injury, but he still thinks he knows how to read the snow. Guess who I am not riding with until avy danger goes down?

I know nothing of the avy this thread started as, sorry for highjacking the thread. Be safe people.

 

[OuraySledder]

I don't think anyone can deny it was steep, the avy danger was high and mistakes were made, but no one can make a justification for someone else. Unless someone here was in the riding group or is with CAIC or the sheriff's office, then no one will really know what exactly transpired.

So you are the thought police on this one? Seems to me, speculation is something people do a lot of. If it makes some of you uncomfortable to talk about it, simply choose not to participate. It was never meant to be personal, so please try to control the emotional responses. Those apperently belong in the other thread.

You guys made the rules. I left the other thread alone. Maybe you could extend the same courtesy to those wanting to discuss the incidents here. First hand accounts would be great but we are unlikely to see them posted here. Speculation is all we have. If I posted what I really think happened I sure the fur would fly again. At least someone is now willing to say mistakes were made. Contrary to your claim, it was suggested that it was just a freak accident in the other thread.

 

[papafinger1]

Don't we all potentially make a mistake when entering into avalanche territory every time we ride? Especially when the danger ratings are considerable or above. This is an emotional topic so it is difficult to not be personal. It makes me sick to my stomach every time an incident happens, fatality or not... What do we preach? Education, awareness, research, readiness to act, and being prepared, but even with all these tools on our side poor judgement/mistakes can lead to the ultimate consequensces. There are so many factors that set us up for failure even with all the knowledge readily available. People are going to continue to be injured or killed as long as we repeadetly make poor decisions and take undo risks. Riders and sleds push the envelope more than ever in extreme sports and unfortunately the ultimate rush can have devastating consequences. The best we can hope for is to educate as many as possible and hope they utilize those lessons in the backcountry with humility and good practices. Avalanche training should not be used for rescue but for prevention.

 

[stingray719]

I am of the opinion that some riders believe the avy class they took and the avy equipment they carry makes them over confident and they take chances they never should. I know of one such case, that rider says he just read the snow wrong. Riding an obvious avy chute in high avy danger doesn't mean you read the snow wrong, means you shouldn't be there to begin with.

Avy equipment is like a helmet, it can certainly help in certain situations but not going to help you if you play stupid.

A few years ago I said this and got flamed for pages I fully expect it again...go ahead.

 

[Kestrel2126]

First off, I don't believe anyone is of the opinion that mistake(s) were not made in this incident. If you were to look at every Avy fatality, I'm sure every one, had some form of mistake leading up to it. What myself, and many of the others took issue with in the other thread, was the crassness and lack of respect in which the accusation, and assumption of those perceived mistakes were, by one who had nothing more than pictures to go off of. But enough about that thread.
As has been said already, education and proper judgement are the two best weapons in avoiding being caught in an avalanche. Avy bags, beacons, RFID embedded gear, etc. are all great items. However, while they MIGHT save your life, after an avalanche, they are not going to prevent you from being in one. Knowing your terrain, proper group riding techniques, snowpack, and utilizing avalanche forecasting resources, COULD. Ultimately, it is up to the rider(s) to make smart choices in where, when, and what they ride, to mitigate the chance of being caught in a slide. One of the best things I have ever done to help my riding, was taking Mike Duffy's course in Silverton. I had taken Avy classes previous, but they were never in active avalanche terrain, and were always directed at skiing. This is something I would highly recommend to everyone that can (not necessarily in Silverton, but one in the mtns focused towards snowmobilers).
As was also said before, snowmobiles keep becoming more capable, riders are going higher and bigger, and everyone is trying to become the next Slednecks film start. This, like in any other sport, leads to more risk. In Motocross, it is typically broken bones. In our sport of sledding, it also includes exposure to one of natures most powerful forces. The more realization of that there is, the less tragedies we will have in the future. All that said (and I am not saying this did or did not have a role in this case), plenty of bystanders, have been caught in avalanches. Paying attention to where you stop and watch/have lunch/take picture/etc, can be just as important as where you are riding.

 

[SSWIM]

This year has been tough. We have pretty much stayed out of any areas that were even remotely avy prone. In Crested Butte we stayed out of Robinson Basin and completely away from Green Lake and the bench. Seven Sisters, where the sledder was buried was brutal. And this was on the road basically. We went to Irwin one day and saw 5 slides across the road. Access routes that have never seen slides, slid. Needless to say, we were extremely cautious and rarely did any climbing this year.

I have NO knowledge at all of the Mancos slide other than what has been offered here. It does look like a terrain trap from the pictures. With that said some access routes will traverse avy paths that rarely slide, or when they do it is minimal, just like the road to Irwin above CB. And Hardways post explains the deceased sledder was not climbing the avy shoot, just on the bench above where they were accessing the back country. Few years back a young man was killed in a slide in the La Sals. Crossing an avy path. Was similar to this. Wrong place at the wrong time. Very sad.

Praying no more deaths due to avys.

Sam

 

[Nychaze]

Since people have gotten their panties in a wad in another thread, can we have an honest discussion of what mistakes that were made?

There is a section for this topic...include the whole snowmobile community, everyone can learn from something here.

Thread already started.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372116

 

[POLZIN]

Serious question . What would you do if you saw another group riding in an unsafe area right next to a recent slide area? I did just the other day. I was shocked at the ignorance and/ or arrogance like I said they were climbing under a huge cornice within 200 yards of a recent slide.i love that spot but did not even want to go down and risk it to ask them wtf?

 

[J almont]

CB deaths

Regarding the slide in CB that killed one. A buddy and I were at the exact spot
at 5pm the nite before the slide. We both agreed to stay on the road and get the hell out of there as the danger was extreme. We went to the local
AC dealership in gunnison immediately after we left irwin to get oil for the
next day. There were three guys in the shop. Happened to be the the
guys from wisconsin that got caught in the slide. I warned them of the danger and told them to stay away from the exact area they got caught in,
They had been riding the area for several days, and knew better. The next
morning it snowed 18 inches more in three hours, on top of the already sketch
pack. Bottom line is had they listened this horrible accident wouldn't have
happened. People make stupid decisions, and this is the result. People will
always make stupid decisions. Take it any way you want. I warned them
not to be there, and they did it anyway.

 

[OuraySledder]

First off, I don't believe anyone is of the opinion that mistake(s) were not made in this incident. If you were to look at every Avy fatality, I'm sure every one, had some form of mistake leading up to it. What myself, and many of the others took issue with in the other thread, was the crassness and lack of respect in which the accusation, and assumption of those perceived mistakes were, by one who had nothing more than pictures to go off of. But enough about that thread.

Actually your buddy Sam (SSWIM) posted this in the other thread.... " If you read Hardways post you will see this was not an act of someone being ignorant."

The entire thread is FULL of comments and innuendo that support the notion that they didn't make a mistake.

I REALLY do not care if you think I am crass, or lack respect (which is earned). People are dying because they ride across chutes like that or sit on the hill while others ride above them. These things will get you killed... obviously. The pictures are worth a thousand words. If you can not look at those pictures and see exactly what the problem is (major terrain trap) then maybe you need to sell your sled with brappp before you both go up there and get killed.

Find something more constructive to do with your comments than to try and put the focus on the fact that I can be an a$$ rather than looking objectively at slide that caused a death. Those guys were riding across that thing????? It had just recently snowed, avy danger was high, that slope is WAY to steep and is an OBVIOUS major slide path.

These were locals with experience? I get the kids in Cooke, no equipment, no experience. That was a bad situation waiting to get worse, which it did. Niether should have happened. We need to use much better judgement. I know better choices of where to ride were availible. Seems completely crazy to me that someone would ride across that face on a very dangerous day just access some other part of the mountain. I read that they took the safe route in. Clearly that also needs a little re-assesment as well.

Somebody brought up the sled videos too. Great point. Those guys take shots for a season of riding, not a day. You do not need to go out every ride and try to emulate that sort of riding. Even the pros know there is a time and place for that activity. It isn't on a steep slope after heavy snow crossing a major slide path. It was easily avoidable with better choices. I hope more people start making those better choices rather than wanting to be a sledneck and risking their lives to do so.

Both deaths could have been easily avoided using nothing more than a little common sense and maybe a little resistance to peer pressure.

I find it incredible that someone can make the same comments as I did regarding another avy death in another section and not take the rediculous amount of heat you guys want to bring down on me. Go read Chewy22's post in the Montana section. He went much further than I did, then ol brapp tells him it is OK? Confronting these mistakes may not be easy for some of you but if you expect to sled and live, you had better start paying more attention. Trying to sugar coat it and be "sensitive" isn't going to help ANYBODY. Do you really think the deceased would prefer we not talk about it in an effort to see that nobody else has to suffer like the family and friends of these folks have?

 

[papafinger1]

Everything you have said is true. My problem is being an angry key stroking stranger is going to have absolutely no effect on the people who have avy training, have the gear, and still make the conscious choice to take unnecessary risks anyway. Do I want to post how stupid people can be, how they ignore all the signs, act over confident and ultimately put their and others lives in jeapory? Your GD right I do! Will that change anything? I'm afraid not. Unfortunately is seems that a lot of riders won't change their approach to mnt riding until a tragedy hit their group or friends. It has to slap em in the face. We can biotch and complain about it all we want but my anger thru my keyboard isn't going to alter how people ride. Life experiences will. A courageous survivor coming on a public forum and giving a first hand dialect of an avalanche, the mistakes made, and how it did and will effect their lives moving forward probably will have more impact than anything. Gives all of us something we can personalize and relate too. Our job is to keep it on the top of the page and keep it on topic so first time readers can feel the full impact of the situation without having to sift through the banter of who hates who. I'm as guilty as anyone but tragedies like these can be very personal and will ultimately receive emotional responses. I have no ill feelings toward anyone just want to find the best solution to reach and impact as many as possible without alienating them.

 

[papafinger1]

https://www.facebook.com/1657213380/posts/10202798609280449
Info to the masses. Please help share, comment, bash, praise, whatever. Lets reach out to those who aren't familiar with avalanche education.

 

[skibreeze]

Then don't. Thats the exact issue in the other thread. We do know mistakes were made, but we don't know all the facts yet. Without those facts, there can be no honest discussion.

The fact is that he put himself in slide path, whether he thought he was safe, I do not know. Now looking at the pics of that area, all I can say is holy crap. Not hard to see that coming.

I rode an area in the trees a few weeks back while trying to get to the top of a range and found an open area that looked easy to climb, but I refused to enter it because I could see a cornice up and around a bend and if it slid it would be ugly. It was nothing as steep and gnarly as those pics, what could possibly make those guys think that this area was safe?

 

[backcountryislife]

Regarding the slide in CB that killed one. A buddy and I were at the exact spot
at 5pm the nite before the slide. We both agreed to stay on the road and get the hell out of there as the danger was extreme. We went to the local
AC dealership in gunnison immediately after we left irwin to get oil for the
next day. There were three guys in the shop. Happened to be the the
guys from wisconsin that got caught in the slide. I warned them of the danger and told them to stay away from the exact area they got caught in,
They had been riding the area for several days, and knew better. The next
morning it snowed 18 inches more in three hours, on top of the already sketch
pack. Bottom line is had they listened this horrible accident wouldn't have
happened. People make stupid decisions, and this is the result. People will
always make stupid decisions. Take it any way you want. I warned them
not to be there, and they did it anyway.

The guys from WI were friends of mine, some in the group I used to coach back home... and after that incident, lots has been talked about in regard to what was done wrong, and the fact that mistakes were made. People start out defensive, but if they have a brain they HAVE to realize that mistakes were made, and that we can learn from their loss.

I've personally been on the other side of this, and While mine was an odd situation... STILL serious mistakes were made, and many of us have learned from them as well.

I find the denial, the "respect for the dead" and all that BS complete horsecrap. Have respect for the dead... LEARN FROM WHAT THEY DID WRONG & don't do it again.

 

[SSWIM]

The guys from WI were friends of mine, some in the group I used to coach back home... and after that incident, lots has been talked about in regard to what was done wrong, and the fact that mistakes were made. People start out defensive, but if they have a brain they HAVE to realize that mistakes were made, and that we can learn from their loss.

I've personally been on the other side of this, and While mine was an odd situation... STILL serious mistakes were made, and many of us have learned from them as well.

I find the denial, the "respect for the dead" and all that BS complete horsecrap. Have respect for the dead... LEARN FROM WHAT THEY DID WRONG & don't do it again.

You are still able to do it with a certain amount of TACT. I'm sure your conversations were stern but with compassion. That's the defining quotient here.

Sam