High Octane Fuel

[TheBreeze]

How much are you getting barrels for? From what I have seen, the unleaded race fuel is significantly more expensive then leaded fuels given similar octane ratings.

 

[CO 2.0]

Around $400 per 55gal barrel shipped to my door. Price fluctuates all the time.

 

[stocksucks!!]

102 octane

ok building my first turbo.. and well i know i wanted a pump gas kit so thats what i bought but..the fuel here in canada is not as good as american fuel.. which is weird caue we sell it to the americans. thats another debate..... back to topic!
found torco fuel accelorator mix with 91 non ethnonal can make up to 105 octane. so upon some math and what not. we foud out a 5 gallon pail of this torco fuel accelorator can make 820 liters of 102 octane fuel for.. about $ 1.70 canadian.. i get my 91 non ethonal from my petro canada bulk plant..
all that being said now i know i will have enough octane to crak up the boost
or at least run at 8-10 psi and not worry a bit.. when u feel the need crank it up to 10-14 psi and hold on..

 

[TheBreeze]

Around $400 per 55gal barrel shipped to my door. Price fluctuates all the time.

Thats a dang good price!

 

[highmark00700]

I know people put chemicals in their cars to increase the octane level such as Toluene, Xylene, and Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE) but i was wondering if they dry the fuel too much like methyl alchohol gas line antifreeze.

Toluene and Xylene are both solvents, so would it be harmful to run through a 2-stroke engine?

Both of these chemicals are used in "octane boosters" that you buy from the gas station.

Toulene is around 114 Octane... $2.50 a gallon(estimate)

Toluene is not harmful to 2 stroke engines and it doesn't seem to do anything to the fuel lines. A lot of race manufactures use it in their fuel. The price of it around here is $4-5 a gallon getting a deal from a local paint supply house. There is a couple guys in our group running it in their 860BB motors and it works fairly well but it also has a couple of issues. The first is with a 14.7:1 head and a mixture of 1 gallon toluene and 9 gallons of 91 it would still set off the knock sensor riding up the trail (approx 6-7000 ft.). When we hit 10,000 ft it was fine. The other was on really cold days, it would act up. On a long pull it would hit the knock sensor and put the sled in limp mode. Same sled same motor with 100ll av (30%) mixed with premium (70%) never had any issues on cold days or riding up the trail. All I could figure is toluene made the fuel's specific gravity a lot heavier, and it wasn't getting enough fuel when it was cold causing deto. They recommend a max mixture of 20% toluene.

 

[1080paul]

So how much boost (AT SEA LEVEL) can I run a 1200 BB on 100LL AvGas? Lowest I can go is 7lbs now. I can get AvGas easy...no plane needed!! If I can run AvGas I just might keep this sled?? I've never rode it yet.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

There was a formula one team way back that ran a car on straight toluene, to do so they had to heat the toluene to 170* if I remember correctly to keep it flowing right. grab a can of carb cleaner and shake it, it gets cold quick.

 

[turbo800]

I spoke with boondockers last year and they suggested for a good all around fuel to take a 55 drum and fill it with 25 gal. 92 non oxy then 25 gal. 100ll and 5 gal. of Toluene. It was suppose to be around 105 octane in the end. 100ll is a dry fuel so the Toluene was suppose to act as a lubricating agent. I have not ran this myself yet. To me I would feel most comfortable running race mixed with pump. It's just cheap insurance vs losing a top end and taking out the turbo, which would far out weigh the cost of race fuel.

This is incorrect. 100LL isn't a dry fuel, that's a myth. Lead is a lubricant added to fuel for years. Toluene IS dry, very similar to thinner. Most people run a 2-3oz extra 2stroke oil to help out.

I have run 100LL Avgas through my turbo since 2002, no problems, 12lbs boost.

When mixing fuels it not a complete 1:1 ratio. It usually takes more of the higher octane fuel 60/40 to reach the 50/50 desired octane. Like said above, I've figured it up mixing race fuel with pump to get close to 100 octane. For me its cheaper to buy straight Avgas than to mix, plus I don't have to buy a barrel all at once, or pay a premium for it by the gallon.

The airport here likes sledders. Guy from the airport told me once on a socked in snowy day, if sledders didn't come in and buy fuel from me, I wouldn't have sold ANY fuel today.

 

[ippielb]

Just run Av gas.

Sam

I would like to if it is readily available in Kelowna/Vernon, but i do not want to be going through o2 sensors every couple hundred miles.

That's a great solution if you can get it easily. Not all airports are like GJ that are cool with selling it, and if you have to drive to get av, or race, you can run less race than av & get the same performance. Then there's airports like Kremmling where they decided to start raping the sledders that were buying it, and DOUBLED their price... not worth buying anymore when that's the case.

If I recall, it takes 6 gal of av to equal 2 gal of 116 in my sled... If' I've got to transport it, there's no question which makes more sense for me (doing the math, the AV was also about $2 more a tank)

Yes, i agree, if it is easily acquirable and lower cost. I will have to do some researching when i get my truck done and get to Kelowna/Vernon. Got some phone calls to make.

AV Gas is good stable fuel at a good price. I have been running M1000s for a few years and thay love the stuff! If you position your O2 sensor rite you can get some good use out of it. Run a extended bung and try not to position it on a outside radius.

How would the o2 sensor need to be placed? I like the idea of not having to mix fuel to try and get the fuel perfect ratio.

I spoke with boondockers last year and they suggested for a good all around fuel to take a 55 drum and fill it with 25 gal. 92 non oxy then 25 gal. 100ll and 5 gal. of Toluene. It was suppose to be around 105 octane in the end. 100ll is a dry fuel so the Toluene was suppose to act as a lubricating agent. I have not ran this myself yet. To me I would feel most comfortable running race mixed with pump. It's just cheap insurance vs losing a top end and taking out the turbo, which would far out weigh the cost of race fuel.

Yes, that would be great to do, but how would one move the 55 gallon drum once it's full? lol I can't lift a 55 gallon drum full. That sounds like a good mixture, i would maybe add some oil to the tank to improve the lubrication as well. I will have to see how easy it is to acquire both AV gas and race gas. And yes i agree on playing it safe.

Sounds like you need a pump gas turbo! People crack me up that spend thousands on high horsepower motors and then try to cheap out on what it takes to make them run.

I made this turbo set up myself, only spend $1,500(turbo, air box, attitude fuel controller, fuel regulator) on it, and then made everything else from scratch that i already had. I want to run high octane fuel to make sure i do not have detonation.

it's just easier to mix 5gal and 5gal or straight AVgas. I did a cost comparison of mixing 50/50 to straight Avgas at the current Avgas price which can be found on www.airnav.com 1 month ago the difference in price was $.08 less per gallon running straight 100LL than mixing 50/50 in Kalispell, MT. at the Kalispell city airport where they have pump your own gas

Yes, but this is all going to be looked at when i move to Kelowna/Vernon. Everything will be taken into perspective, availability, reliability, ease of fueling, and cost.

BLAH BLAH BLAH...

The same BS comment I've seen for years.

Just because some people aren't ignorant enough to PISS away money into their tanks every ride, doesn't make them inferior.

Some of us have better things to do with our money than to piss it into the tank... and even if we DID... you just cost yourself performance by adding too much. Find what you need & run it, whether that be av, pump, race, or whatever the heck mix you want to run.

Personally, I run 60-70 days a year, oct to july... and If I wasted my money on "the right gas" whatever that may be by your standard... I'd be working more & riding less.

Sorry... I'm just downright sick & tired of the STUPID comments about how people who don't waste money on whatever YOU waste your money on are doing it wrong. (like the $30 you wasted giving it to SW... that's 3 gal of 116 for me!!!)

Yup, i would like to run cheaper fuel as it would allow me to go out more, and enjoy riding, as i'm moving out west for the winter strictly for riding. This is all a first for me, as i've never had to run a high octane fuel.

I ran 100% av gas last year. The only problem I have is dragging as 15 gallon gas can through the gate and to the pump to fill it. Then drag it all the way back. The 2 local airports will not let me drive up to the pump because I do not have a plane. Unless I spend a couple hundred on a nice gas caddy, that is my only problem with av gas. Ill be looking into race gas this year and mix it with pump.

That would not bother me, to me it would be worth it to spend a little time to get reliable and consistent fuel, but i'm sure it will get old.

So you've got the money to build a nice turbo... but you cheaped out & won't just buy a plane so you can go get gas????

haha

Could you list just exactly what you are running for mods boost and elevation. Good chance you can run very little av gas mix and the sensor will last for a while. Running straight and it will go in 2-300 miles. I was running 12lbs without det at 10000ft with a 4 gal of av and think I could have run less.

I do not know the actual altitude i will be running, but i know i will only be running 7psi boost.

Why not forget about running leaded race gas in general? I buy 55gal drums of Sunoco GT PLUS 104oct unleaded through a local distributor. Get it dropped shipped to my work. It's a great high octane fuel without the hassles of lead.

If it was that easy to acquire fuel, and for an affordable price it would be a no brainier, but i'm opening my options in case there is no availability for fuel.

ok building my first turbo.. and well i know i wanted a pump gas kit so thats what i bought but..the fuel here in canada is not as good as american fuel.. which is weird caue we sell it to the americans. thats another debate..... back to topic!
found torco fuel accelorator mix with 91 non ethnonal can make up to 105 octane. so upon some math and what not. we foud out a 5 gallon pail of this torco fuel accelorator can make 820 liters of 102 octane fuel for.. about $ 1.70 canadian.. i get my 91 non ethonal from my petro canada bulk plant..
all that being said now i know i will have enough octane to crak up the boost
or at least run at 8-10 psi and not worry a bit.. when u feel the need crank it up to 10-14 psi and hold on..

I'm in the exact same position as you are. I found that NOS octane booster says it can boost 6 full octane, so if i get 94 octane from Husky, i can use the octane booster to raise it to 100 octane, not really cost effective but that would be an alternative if fuel is not readily available.

Toluene is not harmful to 2 stroke engines and it doesn't seem to do anything to the fuel lines. A lot of race manufactures use it in their fuel. The price of it around here is $4-5 a gallon getting a deal from a local paint supply house. There is a couple guys in our group running it in their 860BB motors and it works fairly well but it also has a couple of issues. The first is with a 14.7:1 head and a mixture of 1 gallon toluene and 9 gallons of 91 it would still set off the knock sensor riding up the trail (approx 6-7000 ft.). When we hit 10,000 ft it was fine. The other was on really cold days, it would act up. On a long pull it would hit the knock sensor and put the sled in limp mode. Same sled same motor with 100ll av (30%) mixed with premium (70%) never had any issues on cold days or riding up the trail. All I could figure is toluene made the fuel's specific gravity a lot heavier, and it wasn't getting enough fuel when it was cold causing deto. They recommend a max mixture of 20% toluene.

Yes, toluene needs to be heated to flow right. I'm wanting to try avoid mixing any fuel all around, but if needed thats why i started this thread.

There was a formula one team way back that ran a car on straight toluene, to do so they had to heat the toluene to 170* if I remember correctly to keep it flowing right. grab a can of carb cleaner and shake it, it gets cold quick.

Yes, i was reading up on that, they routed the fuel line through the muffler chamber and it heated it to 60*C. But that's totally out of the question for me! I dont want a fire!

 

[cpa]

If you can buy Xylene for $2.75 a gallon please let me know where because Sherwin Williams is screwing me if thats true, and I buy $10,000 + a month from them.

 

[ippielb]

This is incorrect. 100LL isn't a dry fuel, that's a myth. Lead is a lubricant added to fuel for years. Toluene IS dry, very similar to thinner. Most people run a 2-3oz extra 2stroke oil to help out.

I have run 100LL Avgas through my turbo since 2002, no problems, 12lbs boost.

When mixing fuels it not a complete 1:1 ratio. It usually takes more of the higher octane fuel 60/40 to reach the 50/50 desired octane. Like said above, I've figured it up mixing race fuel with pump to get close to 100 octane. For me its cheaper to buy straight Avgas than to mix, plus I don't have to buy a barrel all at once, or pay a premium for it by the gallon.

The airport here likes sledders. Guy from the airport told me once on a socked in snowy day, if sledders didn't come in and buy fuel from me, I wouldn't have sold ANY fuel today.

100LL is a less dense fuel, so it causes a lean condition if run at the same rate as race fuel, since race fuel is a heavier density. AV gas weighs less then race fuel. Thats exactly what i would do is mix oil in with the fuel. I am just concerned to go through O2 Sensors, as i'm going to be playing with the tuning for a while. Same with my clutching. I agree, it would be easier to run just AV fuel. But i dislike the lead, and the race fuel i dislike the price for price by the gallon, and for the mixing.

 

[ippielb]

If you can buy Xylene for $2.75 a gallon please let me know where because Sherwin Williams is screwing me if thats true, and I buy $10,000 + a month from them.

That is what i found online, i have not been able to find Xylene for less then $18 gallon.

 

[backcountryislife]

Around $400 per 55gal barrel shipped to my door. Price fluctuates all the time.

Just FYI, you can get 110 at bandimere for that $$... but of course, you've got to deal with the BS of going to get it... which would make it worth it for most people I'm sure. Having fuel on hand is NICE! We just buy 20-25 gal at a time of 116 for $9.XX/ gallon... works for us and lasts about 5-6 weeks. (so usually about 4-5 trips a season)


We've been running 116(leaded) mixed with 91 (ethanol) (2-2.5 gal/ tank) or 100LL (5 gal/ tank) in Abby's 09 for 2400+ miles & are still on the original o2 sensor. Perhaps this longevity is because we mix our fuel like nomadic gypsies who shouldn't be allowed the honor of riding a turbo in the first place??? Not sure, but no issues from the lead at all.

If I keel over & die from lead poisoning though... I'm blaming people on SW... they told me it was safe to drink!!!!

 

[CO 2.0]

I figure you wouldn't have any O2 failures that early, it takes awhile. I ran 112 leaded in my audi for 5000 miles and had no issues with a failed O2 sensor. I tested the reading after that compared to a new O2 sensor. They were a little off from each other but not enough to change the fuel ratio very much... and the used leaded fuel sensor had ~50K mi on it.

 

[highmark00700]

When I was having sensor problems on my Innovate AFR, I called and talked to tech support and he told me the two biggest things that cause sensor failure are heat and moisture. He told me to mount the sensor post turbo on the pipe between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock. That range is the least likely to get moisture on it. To help the heat issue I bought a heatsink like this one. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16148&cat=250&page=2

He also said leaded fuel will shorten the life of the sensor but not drasticly, the heatsink would also help that because of how it samples ( not directly in the exhaust stream). One other contributor to early failure was an extremely rich condition so the sensor is exposed to raw fuel.

 

[backcountryislife]

well shoot... if it takes 5k to kill a sensor.. that's not even wort worrying about!!! I've yet to put 5k on a sled yet!

Can't think of any other downfall of lead... aside from my kids turning out... well, like me!

 

[wasatchcomm]

its funny,

guys spend all this money on a turbo sled, wont run a fuel because it may ruin a sensor after 2k-5k miles,

avgas is a great fuel
i've had no problems with it.

if your worried about the o2 sensor, change it when you replace the top end on your sled, you will need to do that before the sensor goes out....thats a fact....

 

[backcountryislife]

its funny,

guys spend all this money on a turbo sled, wont run a fuel because it may ruin a sensor after 2k-5k miles,

avgas is a great fuel
i've had no problems with it.

if your worried about the o2 sensor, change it when you replace the top end on your sled, you will need to do that before the sensor goes out....thats a fact....

Now that comparison I'll agree with... because you'll save the cost of the sensor, by running leaded fuel which is cheaper & safer otherwise.

 

[catmanm7]

From http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html current price for me local is $5.87

Quote yesterday from don smalls was 7.55 a gal for sunoco 110 or 487.89 a drum.

Depending on the hassle, I may not even worry about the 1.70 a gallon difference and just run race. I will just run more boost as well.

Ippie- with your setup I dont think you would need much race or av gas. I dont know if you have said what boost and elevation you were going to run. I think you have the f7 800 bb and aero 53.

 

[m8lovin]

Av

Hey ippielb

Salmon arm airport is where i buy my av. The guy is super cool and lets you drive right up to the pump with your barrell. Last year it was only $1.48 / litre.
This year will be more but still cheaper than race.
Pm me if you want his #. This reminds me, my barrel is empty and the hills are getting white.