Here we go - Reviving the 9 ----------For mountain riders, Polaris is introducing the new Patriot 9R engine – a radical, naturally aspirated big-bore
- Thread starter SixtySevenGT
- Start date
Don't worry, sales reps never lie
Yeah, I'm just here to play devil's advocate and have nothing useful to contribute. Don't mind me haha
Maybe Corporate got after him????
Having followed these forums for several years, I've never known Dan to back down or take his ball and go home. I would be very surprised if he just said "screw you guys" and deleted his posts in this thread all on his own. I suspect @TRS may be onto something...
My $.02 on the 900 is that it will probably be a "great" motor to some, but not so great to most riders (who probably wouldn't buy one anyway). I think Polaris is seeing the most profit, and probably a growing proportion of their sales at the top end of the market. Unfortunately, that's probably more because of shrinking sales on more basic sleds than growing demand on any level. A buyer on the top end is likely to care less about durability, NVH, and such than a more budget-oriented buyer. I don't think there's any question that the 900R won't hold up as long (on average) and will be worse in terms of NVH than the 850. The question is, how much worse? For most people buying them, if it's a difference of getting 2000 miles vs. 3000 out of the motor and the 900 being noticeably rougher jumping back and forth on an 850 but not "wow, this is a paint-shaker!" bad, I bet they'll sell every one until the next thing comes along.
I think Dan's concerns about the 900R will prove out, but whether it's a disaster will really depend on you perspective. His predictions about the 850 were more centered around early production issues (cylinder finish in particular); his predictions about the 900R are hitting more at hard limits and major compromises Polaris is working around. To counteract vibration and maintain the same longevity as the 850, they'd have had to add a lot of weight (relatively speaking) to the rotating assembly, which would have made it a slower-revving and less responsive motor than the 850. On the other hand, just keeping the rotating assembly the same weight while increasing displacement gives you everything you want in terms of power and responsiveness, but will cost you in NVH and longevity. Polaris is definitely leaning more on the "responsiveness" end of the spectrum, so there's no question to my mind that they're taking a calculated risk. Personally, I wouldn't buy one. But that's just me: I need a sled that'll last and be reliable far more than I "need" the most power or responsiveness. Also, you're betting on getting the sled on time and not hitting major teething issues; on that, Polaris's batting average would only be considered good in baseball... On the other hand, some guys go to Vegas and can lose $25k in a weekend and still have fun. I might say something if you're bankrupting yourself, but I'm not here to tell people how to spend their money.
My $.02 on the 900 is that it will probably be a "great" motor to some, but not so great to most riders (who probably wouldn't buy one anyway). I think Polaris is seeing the most profit, and probably a growing proportion of their sales at the top end of the market. Unfortunately, that's probably more because of shrinking sales on more basic sleds than growing demand on any level. A buyer on the top end is likely to care less about durability, NVH, and such than a more budget-oriented buyer. I don't think there's any question that the 900R won't hold up as long (on average) and will be worse in terms of NVH than the 850. The question is, how much worse? For most people buying them, if it's a difference of getting 2000 miles vs. 3000 out of the motor and the 900 being noticeably rougher jumping back and forth on an 850 but not "wow, this is a paint-shaker!" bad, I bet they'll sell every one until the next thing comes along.
I think Dan's concerns about the 900R will prove out, but whether it's a disaster will really depend on you perspective. His predictions about the 850 were more centered around early production issues (cylinder finish in particular); his predictions about the 900R are hitting more at hard limits and major compromises Polaris is working around. To counteract vibration and maintain the same longevity as the 850, they'd have had to add a lot of weight (relatively speaking) to the rotating assembly, which would have made it a slower-revving and less responsive motor than the 850. On the other hand, just keeping the rotating assembly the same weight while increasing displacement gives you everything you want in terms of power and responsiveness, but will cost you in NVH and longevity. Polaris is definitely leaning more on the "responsiveness" end of the spectrum, so there's no question to my mind that they're taking a calculated risk. Personally, I wouldn't buy one. But that's just me: I need a sled that'll last and be reliable far more than I "need" the most power or responsiveness. Also, you're betting on getting the sled on time and not hitting major teething issues; on that, Polaris's batting average would only be considered good in baseball... On the other hand, some guys go to Vegas and can lose $25k in a weekend and still have fun. I might say something if you're bankrupting yourself, but I'm not here to tell people how to spend their money.
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I hope I didn't scare Indy Dan away? I was just trying to spread a little common sense and perspective into the conversation, much like BeartoothBaron is above. I too did not buy a 900 for this season, but will in the future, if they hold up. I was genuinely worried about my 850 after reading Dan's gloom and doom about it, back in 2018. It turned out great and this time around, feels like daja vu.
Let's ask Christopher, I think Poo paid SW to take them down..
Nope, pretty sure it wasn't anything you said (he's a guy, so...
). I found the thread and dug through it a little. There's a lot to be gleaned from it. https://www.snowest.com/forum/threads/850-gone-down-already.445843/ The big lingering question I have is whether the cylinder finish on the early production 850 that he was very concerned about was representative of the hone on most 850s, or if it was a one-off, or maybe part of an early run. There are really only two possibilities: either he was right about that engine having a bad hone - but most came with a better hone - or it wasn't that big a deal. Even if Poo said "yikes!" and improved the hone, I don't doubt Dan's hone is better; either way, the 850 doesn't seem prone to eating pistons and rings. One thing Dan was definitely right about was the PTO bearing: Polaris ended up adding a retainer ring for '20 and later. There was also the blocked oil line that took down some early 850s, plus a few people who have frequent plug fowling issues. So the 850 was far from perfect, but obviously mass failures never materialized (thankfully); seems pretty on-par for a Poo motor. One thing you'll also find him saying multiple times is that he loves the design of the motor: unlike the 9R, his concerns were more about the details of how it was built and some of the component choices than the basic design.The other thing about Dan (and I hope he comes back to this thread) is that he works off much higher standards than Polaris. Both are out there to make money, yes, but I do think Dan saw what he thought was a real problem. And he definitely didn't suggest every 850 owner should tear down their brand new motor and send it to him. Full disclosure, I've got one of his long-rod Pro motors, and will probably hold onto it for a long time it or at least keep it "in the family." Dan's predictions may not be perfect, but I don't know of anyone who builds a better motor, and he stands behind what he builds. He'll honestly tell you what he thinks of anything he goes hands-on with, whether it helps his business or hurts it. And the other thing is, Dan builds motors to improve on what you get from the factory, and to address weaknesses guys like @TRS find (take a look at that thread and see how many motors Poo has replaced for him under warranty!). That doesn't come cheap. Meanwhile, Polaris builds motors to the lowest cost possible. If there's a weak spot, but only 5% of riders run long and hard enough to find it, then it's often cheaper to replace a hundred or so motors for them than to add, say, $50 per engine to address it. And I think that's where perfectionists like me get frustrated with Polaris: I'd rather buy it right once for a little more than have to worry about taking even a little extra chance of it burning out on me in a bad spot (much as I don't like how sleds just keep getting pricier). I know that's a risk you take no matter what you ride, but it is enough of a consideration for me that I'd probably avoid anything first-year from Poo even if cost were no object. Actually, with bottomless pockets, I think I'd buy a new 850 and have Dan redo the motor. I still love a lot of what Polaris does, but there's always something...
you guys are missing the point Polaris has this figured out to a tee. sell you the latest and greatest that has been engineered to only last to the end of the warrantee. So now they have made the sale and the average guy rides less than 700 mile a year. motor poops and they get to sell you a new motor with in 4 ish years for 5k. now they have sold you 1.5 sleds in 4 years. Now we are about half the way in to not supporting the old stuff so in 5 more year you have to upgrade for non support.
polaris and carl's have said they are the same motor
Nope, pretty sure it wasn't anything you said (he's a guy, so...
The other thing about Dan (and I hope he comes back to this thread) is that he works off much higher standards than Polaris. Both are out there to make money, yes, but I do think Dan saw what he thought was a real problem. And he definitely didn't suggest every 850 owner should tear down their brand new motor and send it to him. Full disclosure, I've got one of his long-rod Pro motors, and will probably hold onto it for a long time it or at least keep it "in the family." Dan's predictions may not be perfect, but I don't know of anyone who builds a better motor, and he stands behind what he builds. He'll honestly tell you what he thinks of anything he goes hands-on with, whether it helps his business or hurts it. And the other thing is, Dan builds motors to improve on what you get from the factory, and to address weaknesses guys like @TRS find (take a look at that thread and see how many motors Poo has replaced for him under warranty!). That doesn't come cheap. Meanwhile, Polaris builds motors to the lowest cost possible. If there's a weak spot, but only 5% of riders run long and hard enough to find it, then it's often cheaper to replace a hundred or so motors for them than to add, say, $50 per engine to address it. And I think that's where perfectionists like me get frustrated with Polaris: I'd rather buy it right once for a little more than have to worry about taking even a little extra chance of it burning out on me in a bad spot (much as I don't like how sleds just keep getting pricier). I know that's a risk you take no matter what you ride, but it is enough of a consideration for me that I'd probably avoid anything first-year from Poo even if cost were no object. Actually, with bottomless pockets, I think I'd buy a new 850 and have Dan redo the motor. I still love a lot of what Polaris does, but there's always something...
I believe the majority of the bearing movement issue was because of a partially blocked oil port, the bearing would starve for oil, heat up and the case, being aluminum would expand more and then the loose bearing would walk. There are plenty of 850's with high mileage and no retainer ring that are still going strong. I have one of them. If they got the oil they didn't move.
Hmmm, I remember them being independent issues. Both the blocked oil line from the factory and the PTO bearing issues were well-documented, but I'd have to go digging to say for sure if they were or weren't connected. It doesn't really matter; most of them didn't move even without a retainer, and the oiling and PTO bearing issues were fully resolved for '20. The failure rate wasn't terrible, but I'd say you get a little more peace of mind with a '20. Polaris made a point about how much R&D they'd done and how many years and miles they had on it, but it still had a couple major fixes the next year. That's the kind of thing makes me lean towards avoiding anything 1st-year from Polaris, but the good news is that most '19s were still pull and go, after an ECU flash or two anyway. At least the 9R isn't an all-new architecture, but on the other hand, it is pushing the envelope quite a bit harder...
He probably requested Snowest pull everything after getting so many whiners.
