Help me undertand... Plowing & Grooming...

[nikeholley]

I posted in another thread, but I'd like a fresh one for some answers...

I got inspired by Snowinthetoes..!!..

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I don't quite understand the plowing/grooming system here in Washington...

I can't figure out how we 'run out of funds' for grooming on various trails, and for plowing to/at various snowparks...

It seems like VERY simple math to me...

easy to calculate how many times you groom how far...

The trails are used mostly on the weekend, so groom on Thursday night & Saturday night...

Twice a week = 8 times a month, x 4 months = 32 grooming runs, x number of miles on that trail = THE GRAND TOTAL

maybe I'm missing something..??..

PLUS... if the access to the snowpark is blocked/closed/washed-out... then don't GROOM there... save the grooming trip for later, when/if the access is open again...

I believe that the groomers get PAID when they turn in mileage... that seems wrong... the more often they groom, the more they get paid...

I have seen trails this year that were groomed 4 times in one week, and I've seen trails that were groomed from/to a closed snowpark... that seems like a lack of interest in the QUALITY/longevity of our sport, and a push to get all the hours used up for the season so they can get paid, and stop grooming..!?!?!?..

PLUS... there needs to be some allowance/system for years where there is less grooming possible/plowing needed, and carry it over to years where there is MORE grooming possible/plowing needed...

I'm just an old fart that likes a smooth trail for the first and last few miles... the 'heavily used' part of the trails, when we all get up high, we branch off anyway and go play... I think that we need a system that will allow plowing/access and grooming as long as there is snow on the ground... not by a date or 'funds running out'...

We're all about riding as much as we can, aren't we..??.. I/we would gladly pay for access/grooming where I/we ride... maybe per trip..??..

I think that the bottom line is... we need the plowing & grooming done by an organization that is interested/involved in our sport, not just get 'er done, get paid, and get outta here..!!..

I don't know exactly what all the answers are, but it seems that the 'system' needs a fix....

time to get off the soapbox...

If I'm off base here, please correct me...

Nike

 

[NW VOLCANO Climber]

Its the Forest Circus, dont try to make sense of it......

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

Careful...
Most folks get flamed when they express their disappointment about how the grooming gets done in our state.

They will tell you "Get involved, attend the meetings" and other such things that are impossible for so many of us because of location or meeting schedules/times.
And in general there is absolutely nothing you will accomplish by attending these meetings because your comments don't count.
It's like fighting city hall. You won't win but you will have a better understanding of what you already know, The schedule and quantity of grooming runs is what it is and will not be changed regardless of how many meetings you attend.

Then ther are those who will call you names like "Tool" and tell you to ride somewhere else. That's pathetic.

It's like the elephant in the room that you're not allowed to comment on no matter how bad it stinks.

It has been proposed MANY times in TONS of threads here that the groomer have a drop box, a collection site to gain funds from everybody who rides the system for continued grooming after the paltry funds from the state dry up.

Many people have already stated that they would be happy to pay anywhere from $10 to $50 to get him back out on the system and knock the bumps down but as of yet, not one grooming company has taken us up on it or even wanted to open up dialog with us to discuss it.

There are many things to consider.
Who will collect it?
Can they legally collect it at a forest road trail head?
How to pay the person collecting it? (face it, no one would do this for free)
What about the cheapskates that would just blow by the booth and not pay a dime?

Heck, I doubt anyone would complain if the groomer was to make a nice, tidy profit off this either as long as he did a great job. Let him get paid what he's worth.

People will say they already pay for grooming with their taxes and don't want to pay more for what they feel they deserve.
Those folks are already getting exactly what they deserve. Crappy ungroomed trails.

 

[w8tn4u]

put a toll booth at the road leading up to the snow park. charge per person in the vehicle. That way the people who us the groomed system pay for the grooming and the people who prefer to ride in non groomed areas do not get taxed unfairly.

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

put a toll booth at the road leading up to the snow park. charge per person in the vehicle. That way the people who us the groomed system pay for the grooming and the people who prefer to ride in non groomed areas do not get taxed unfairly.

This is a good idea, a user based system. but I'm not sure the state would allow a "Business" to be run on state land without wanting their "cut".

This idea WOULD solve the problem but it might not be allowed.???

Personally, I don't want to give any more money to this state's government because they have shown that they are not capable of managing their funds, 'nor are they responsible with the money we already give them.

Some areas I ride are groomed beautifully all season long but I believe they get funds from the local clubs for their own groomer.
If the grooming is left up to private funding then they work for those who pay them. That's US.
WE would require them to groom on the days that WE want them to.
I doubt Thurday would be one of those days.

 

[nikeholley]

Adrenalin Revolution... I am aligned with your thinking... I like the 'pay as you use' idea... but we obviously need a restructure of the whole 'State' involvement... a 'business ran on State land without their cut' ...yeah right... you nailed that one..!!.. somehow we need a shift in the ones making the decisions...

I, again might be wrong... but I think that snowmobiling HELPS the economy & the State...

I'm sure that there are many of us that would get involved at many levels if we knew how & where and had the slightest idea that it might do some good...

Nike

 

[greenskeeper]

sorry , I dont know where you ride ,,,but the Cle Elum area groomer meeting is this monday night at the forest service bldg, attend if you can ,,all the groomers for the cle elum valley will be there, and YES they do take into your input and will explain why or why not what you propose will work, and I do not know of any groomers in this area that take private funds to keep working,,,,,,,.........

 

[1200cc]

Careful...

Then ther are those who will call you names like "Tool" and tell you to ride somewhere else. That's pathetic.

Some guys are TOOLS.. Sorry

The pathetic thing is when guys slam the groomer operator.

I want to thank the groomer for doing an absolutely wonderful job with the grooming today. It was almost like you were never even there. With 20" stutter bumps for 10 miles each way, that made my day. Thanks.

Dude your a tool... Bit*hing about the groomer is not cool... Try getting involved and helping us fight for more money...

 

[rmkrider82]

Good to go

Threads like this crack me up, people that really have no idea how the system works thros out all kinds of ideas of how it should be done, goes riding maybe twice a month and just thinks that it should be smooth for them or the whole twice a week grooming or only on weekends bla bla you think a grooming machine is going to take 3 days worth of 100 sleds and take all of them studder bumbs out. on one pass, like he is going to just get in and get out, well what if it takes 2 and three times to go over a trail to make it smooth. The The whole pay as you go plan what a bunch of crap, like everyone is just going to be all ok with that maybe we can turn our trails into HWY 167 or the Narrows the good to go effect and that way nobody feels left out and when the parking lot is full they can charge 25 bucks a sled to go down a trail......... yeah that makes sense The system works it just needs more money XC skiers pay for their parkig permit and think they should have a guy there to valet park it for them, this program is headed down hill becuase of all of the bit***** that makes it way to state parks about the bad grooming you think by calling them, on the guys at baker is going to accomplish something like they are going to call him and make him groom, no they get pissed off becuase he didnt budget himself to last the whole season, sounds like he wanted to go to mexico a little early, He did a great job until he ran out maybe he Was going out to much during the weeks and should have backed off a little to carry us til no when the snow hits.

 

[yammadog]

Some guys are TOOLS.. Sorry

The pathetic thing is when guys slam the groomer operator.

Tool...for sure.....some are...they always show themselves at some point....

slamming, I thought it was more sarcastic than anything. As for the slamming the operators, obviously they don't have any control over what happens. But maybe from this point forward, they could bring in the comments of the 4m members and use it as a sales tool. Instead of just saying....blah, no money, blah, show up to a meeting...blah, You are providing a service and the customers are unhappy, how can you use our help, name the time, place and I'm sure you'll get participants.

I think he made a legit comment and you turned to attacking instead of helping to offer a solution. We had hardly any snow, not sure if it needed groomed without new snow, so it would seem the money should be left over from the inactivity to get into the prime baker time in the spring. Or different planning? Not just sipping at the gov't trough waiting for more cheese....

 

[1200cc]

Tool...for sure.....some are...they always show themselves at some point....

slamming, I thought it was more sarcastic than anything. As for the slamming the operators, obviously they don't have any control over what happens.

I think he made a legit comment and you turned to attacking

Really?? Legit comment.. No he was just being an A$$! And i attacked him.. Maybe i am just sick of this every spring guys start b!tching. But i didnt see any of them at the state grooming meeting or in Olympia lobbying for more funds. Sorry for caring about my sport...

 

[Mr.prez]

No he did not go to Mexico. Our area does not get enough money to go all season. When it went from public to private the mileage was not correct so we did not receive correct amount of money. We receive money for 152 miles. A few years ago the State parks gps our trails, we should be paid on 220 x frequency. Yes it takes more then one pass to make a good trail. Baker gets riders 7 days a week now, somewhere between 12-15,000 riders per year, according to the Forrest Service trail counters. The groomer also has 5 other areas to groom with these same funds. To keep Baker groomed and in good shape it takes grooming 2-3 times a week,with multiple passes with this many riders up there day and nite.
Mike
feel free to call or pm me

 

[KMMAC]

Prez,,, good post, ya, how would some of these complainers have made it 10 or 15 years ago...

 

[nikeholley]

settle down now...

I jumped off of the 'Baker' thread to start a new 'State wide' thread...

I personally never ride at Baker, but I do care about all areas and our sport as a whole..!!..

My experience is mostly in the central Cascades...

now...

I am not 'JUMPING' on the groomers 'cause it's springtime and the trails are rough'...

I appreciate the work that the groomers do all over the state... and the access to the snowparks so we can enjoy our sport... I don't think that it is managed well, and I don't like the little/lack of info that is provided on the State-Parks website...

My intent was to try and find out WHAT is going on, what info members here had, and maybe how I can help...

We need to be unified, I know we need more money, (who doesn't), and I know there's only a few that will do anything about anything...

I just want to be one of those few...

Nike

 

[nikeholley]

I'll get flamed for this one...

With the above post said...

I have trouble working up the level of sympathy that appears here for the various groomers...

I believe that it's bid on, and a contract with the State..??..

in business, we all have to decide what we can work for/sell for/live on, and base our pricing on that one fact... simple as that...

If a company that gets the grooming contract did not price their service high enough to cover expenses, labor and profit... well OOOOPS... sorry, but that is their problem... not all the sledders that must suffer from their mistakes...

I think that some grooming is done by private companies, some is done by local clubs, and some is done by the state..??.. is this correct...??.. Who decides..??..

How about the plowing to/at the snowparks..??..

Flame on...

Nike

 

[1200cc]

Threads like this crack me up, people that really have no idea how the system works

Well welcome to the thread i am glad you have blessed us with your prescience!! None of us know a thing so please give us the answers!!!

Oh hey when the groomer operator gets back from Mexico maybe you should get out from behind the keyboard and tell him how to budget himself and how to run HIS business, i am sure he would love to hear it... In the mean time you can educate those of us not as brilliant as you..

Thank you.

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

Threads like this crack me up, (1) people that really have no idea how the system works thros out all kinds of ideas of how it should be done, goes riding maybe twice a month and just thinks that it should be smooth for them or the whole twice a week grooming or only on weekends bla bla you think a grooming machine is going to take 3 days worth of 100 sleds and take all of them studder bumbs out. on one pass, like he is going to just get in and get out, well what if it takes 2 and three times to go over a trail to make it smooth. (2) The The whole pay as you go plan what a bunch of crap, like everyone is just going to be all ok with that maybe we can turn our trails into HWY 167 or the Narrows the good to go effect and that way nobody feels left out and when the parking lot is full they can charge 25 bucks a sled to go down a trail......... yeah that makes sense (3) The system works it just needs more money XC skiers pay for their parkig permit and think they should have a guy there to valet park it for them, this program is headed down hill becuase of all of the bit***** that makes it way to state parks about the bad grooming you think by calling them, on the guys at baker is going to accomplish something like they are going to call him and make him groom, no they get pissed off becuase he didnt budget himself to last the whole season, sounds like he wanted to go to mexico a little early, He did a great job until he ran out maybe he Was going out to much during the weeks and should have backed off a little to carry us til no when the snow hits.

(1) people that really have no idea how the system works thros out all kinds of ideas of how it should be done,
So you're not in favor of anyone but your eminence having an opinion?

(2) The The whole pay as you go plan what a bunch of crap
It's a suggestion your holiness, What is yours? Do you think our esteemed government is more efficient at saving and spending the funds to do it right?

(3) The system works it just needs more money XC skiers pay for their parkig permit and think they should have a guy there to valet park it for them,
WTH are you even talking about? If the system works then why this, and hundreds of other threads just like it over the years? And what the heII are you talking about XC skiers for???

 

[yammadog]

Really?? Legit comment.. No he was just being an A$$! And i attacked him.. Sorry for caring about my sport...

My opinion, it is a legit question and you are even more the tool for not educating us on the real deal, from YOUR perspective. And believe me, I'm sure his question was because he cares about the sport also, not just to antagonize the groomers or people like yourself that bring nothing to a LEGIT conversation.

So, when are the groomer meetings for the Baker area? I've been seeing announcements on the I-90 corridor guys...Thanks for that fella's....and it seems that whatever happens in those meetings seems to be working since we are still seeing grooming happening.

I usually only visit baker in the sunshine since it's a longer drive than the 30 minutes I have to GC, so seeing a long season of grooming up there lasting into april would be nice. I know the club up there does a good job of making things happen, have they set up a side fund for helping pay to get grooming done? I'll donate if it helps get it groomed into april.

 

[winter brew]

IMO the bottom line is there just needs to be more $$ for grooming. Whether it's raising the tabs, pay at the trailhead or ???
6 months of grooming at 2/week minimum should be planned and then if we have a short season the excess should be carried to the following season or spent on improvements.
I would be happy to pay double or triple on tabs if I KNEW the $$ would go towards grooming/plowing and not into the general fund like happened in the early '90's.

 

[ruffryder]

So, when are the groomer meetings for the Baker area? I've been seeing announcements on the I-90 corridor guys...Thanks for that fella's....and it seems that whatever happens in those meetings seems to be working since we are still seeing grooming happening.

If I am not mistaken, there is only 1 club that works up north... the Northwest Glacier Cruisers. I believe they do it all, Bear Paw / Excelsior , Glacier Creek, Baker, Anderson Watson.... I am not 100% sure though. There meetings are the 1st Thursday every month in Burlington at Alfy's Pizza.