Good ethanol article in Popular Mechanics

[Goin For Snow]

Been beat to death, but another good read.

Try to knock the max thread off the top for a minute...http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4237539.html?page=2

 

[colojer]

great article and a good magazine

 

[bonz50]

ethanol = bad for america

 

[POLZIN]

I am glad to hear someone has some sense in the world! besides all the factors listed in this article what about water ? this process requires alot of water and the last time I checked there where water shortages in many areas in the country not just the southwest where I live . But the thing that really blows me away about this stuff is that it stiil creates greenhouse gases which is what I thought was the problem.So whats the friggin point you can bet its for no other reason than $$$ . I think what people fail to consider as well is that the all of these alternative energy sources com with a price whether it be wind ,solar or whatever buy harnessing the energy it has taken this energy from something else. I learned in science class that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It will be interesting to see what problems are created in the future as the energy sources are utilized more extensively. I would bet in 100 years they people will look back and think "maybe fossil energy was not as bad as we thought" the point is we understand Jack sh!t about global anything so lets stop pretending we do.

 

[buck50]

good read

 

[HeadLever]

Good article. Ethanol from food is not very good policy. Also, the heavy government subsidies are costing us taxpayers on top of the taxes you already pay for gas.

There are some budding technologies where ethanol can be made from waste material, but this technology is a ways off. The most viable alternative that I have seen so far is biodiesel from algae. There are several pilot plants starting up soon, and I hope that they can make them work.

Polzinhunter, it is true that CO2 is exhausted from ethanol and biofuels, but the carbon from these "grown" fuels originated from the CO2 in the atmosphere to start with. Carbon from fossile fuels has come from a solid or liquid source in the ground that is released into the atmosphere.

 

[skidoorulz]

Yep That's what I've been saying. You will get arguments from grain farmers that this is the answer. The only reason it is the answer for them is that it drives up the price that they are paid for their corn,wheat soy beans or what have it. Stock growers and livestock feeders will tell you that the cost they have to pay for feed is being driven by the ethanol plants. Which it is because they can pay more for these crops because of the hype that ethanol is getting. How much sense does it make to turn food into fuel? I can deal with an empty gas tank but I get cranky when my gas tank (stomach) is empty. Now to mention what the price of grain does to prices at the grocery store. Just look what a gallon of milk costs now, about $4.50. look at the cost of a dozen eggs or a loaf of bread, I could go on and on. I do realize that some of this is the high cost of transportation, but it is also the high cost of commodities .The article says it well. Why burn 1.3 gallons of deisel fuel to produce 1 gallon of ethanol? It does not pencil out. Ethanol or Bio-deisel is not the answer.

 

[SNOW JW]

So how far away is Hydrogen to lets say being on the show room floor???

 

[weetee]

It takes allot of electricity to produce hydrogen. Nuclear power+hydrogen is the answer.

 

[skidoorulz]

Hydrogen would be a viable alternative. Electricity can be generated by coal fired, or nuclear, or wind farms or hydro power plants. 2 of these forms are renewable. Coal is not but there is a huge abundance of it and does not burn more fuel to produce it than the energy it creates. Also we should build more coal gasification plants. I just do not see burning up our food sources in our gas tanks. It is great that farmers are getting a good price for their comodities, But (and I know this will get me hammered bad) the government will always be there for them, as the government knows how important the farmer is to the viability of this nation.

 

[SNOW JW]

So if Hydrogen is the new key why is it taking so long??? Or is the Tech not there yet????

 

[bonz50]

Hydrogen would be a viable alternative. Electricity can be generated by coal fired, or nuclear, or wind farms or hydro power plants. 2 of these forms are renewable. Coal is not but there is a huge abundance of it and does not burn more fuel to produce it than the energy it creates. Also we should build more coal gasification plants. I just do not see burning up our food sources in our gas tanks. It is great that farmers are getting a good price for their comodities, But (and I know this will get me hammered bad) the government will always be there for them, as the government knows how important the farmer is to the viability of this nation.

only problem with hydrogen is that in order to deliver it to the end consumer every fueling station in the country will have to be gutted... the entire country's consumer based fuel delivery systems would have to be replaced... which could take 10-20 yrs and cost tens (or even hundreds) of billions of dollars and if you think that cost isn't gonna be taxpayer funded, think again........

 

[BigAl]

Hydrogen might be the fuel of the future but right now we have a nation that's set up for fossil fuel. Even when the technology is perfected, as has been said, the infastructure for fueling will have to be in place and that won't take place until they see numbers that indicate there will be enough cars to make it profitable. Once they see the numbers they'll still face years of challenges from Eco groups when they try to expand production and local groups when the try to set a hydrogen tank at the neighborhood gas station.
Right now it seem that the only ones that are driving the hybrids are those that have the money and are caught up in the "cause of the day" and the EcoGeek that "wants to make the world safe for the children." If they wanted to feel good about themselves they should have junked their cars out instead of trading them in and allowing them to be on the road for another 20 years, driven by those who can't afford the luxury of driving a hybid.

 

[Anti-Hero]

My rebuttal http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

 

[HeadLever]

Currently, hydrogen is nothing more that a storage medium for energy. To make hydrogen you need to input energy into water in order to seperate hydrogen from oxygen by a process called hydrolysis. You will never get back more energy from burning the free hydrogen than it took to make it in the first place. As was pointed out above, the infrastructure is already in place for bio fuels and ethanol, but not for hydrogen.

Also in order to use hydrogen, the gas needs to be compressed to very high pressures and this adds to the amount of energy required for this fuel.

 

[Ollie]

So if Hydrogen is the new key why is it taking so long??? Or is the Tech not there yet????

They are currently working on it here where I work.
There are some pretty big problems to overcome.
how do you store it for long periods without degredation?
How do you mass make it and make it safe enough to transport yet volitile enough to work?
How do you make the transfer process safe enough for mom and pop moron to operate without blowing up a city block?

They have found that you can make hydrogen in the fuel tank itself. Unforturnetly the process you use to do it that way is stupid expensive and no-one could afford it.

You are looking at 10-15 years before we have a viable usuable hydrogen fuel.
E-85 has some major draw backs, but it is usable now. We can pump enough oil on US soil to make all the e-85 we need. That would release us from Opec and other countries. It would release our economy from being tied to the world oil market. Currently the benefits of using E-85 outweigh the negatives.

E-85 is not the answer, it is a stop gap messure only.

 

[H2SNOW]

they did a deal on mythbusters re Hydrogen the other day ....worked realy good soo good that they had to stop because they were basicaly just pourin in right into the carb of this 80s cutless....oh and none of them gas saver gimicks work at al ....BUSTED

 

[weetee]

Good info. (Its time to drill in ANWR)

 

[POLZIN]

i have heard they are making big strides with point of use seperation in Norway that and the posiibilty of 80% efficient solar panels in the not to distant Future when combined could be the best solution or combination of solutions

Imagine this (My daydream )

In the future when point of use seperation is a perfected technology ( you would fill your car with water ) Snowmobiles would be able to use melted snow from cooling to produce there fuel and have no harmful exhaust. We would never have to carry a gerry can or fill at the gas station again and the damn treehuggers would have nothing to say about our polution or lack there of . I get all fuzzy feeling all over just thinking about it. and given the potential energy in hydrogen it could make for some damn fun rides .

 

[BigAl]

i have heard they are making big strides with point of use seperation in Norway that and the posiibilty of 80% efficient solar panels in the not to distant Future when combined could be the best solution or combination of solutions

Imagine this (My daydream )

In the future when point of use seperation is a perfected technology ( you would fill your car with water ) Snowmobiles would be able to use melted snow from cooling to produce there fuel and have no harmful exhaust. We would never have to carry a gerry can or fill at the gas station again and the damn treehuggers would have nothing to say about our polution or lack there of . I get all fuzzy feeling all over just thinking about it. and given the potential energy in hydrogen it could make for some damn fun rides .

Might need a couple cans of Isopropl to get 'em started in the morning.