GM to become CM (Chinese Motors)?

[ruffryder]

Please explain to me and others how you will get a return on your investment.

Some will come back when the govt sells its stocks of GM. Some was received due to not as many people being on unemployment, some was received as sales tax and income tax by keeping people employed and by GM selling cars. Some was and will be received via corporate tax on the company. The government will get some of it's money back, as to all of it, it would be interesting to see just how much GM has paid in taxes over the years and how much it will pay in the future.

You had no obligation to GM either but you gave them your money involuntarily!
Your money was confiscated from you and spent on GM. you have no chance to see that money again.
You don't seem to be too worried about that so why not do the right thing and bail out my widget company?

Economies of scale would be one thing. Your little widget company is not as big of concern as a large company. What is the cost of keeping manufacturing jobs here in the US? If GM went completely bankrupt do you think only ford and dodge would have bought the pieces? Dodge couldn't do it, as they were in a problem themselves, and I think Ford leveraged themselves heavily before the downturn.

That is my take on it.. but the anti-govt anythings these days don't care. GOVT- BAD blah blah blah..

 

[straight-shot]

Some will come back when the govt sells its stocks of GM. Some was received due to not as many people being on unemployment, some was received as sales tax and income tax by keeping people employed and by GM selling cars. Some was and will be received via corporate tax on the company. The government will get some of it's money back, as to all of it, it would be interesting to see just how much GM has paid in taxes over the years and how much it will pay in the future.


Economies of scale would be one thing. Your little widget company is not as big of concern as a large company. What is the cost of keeping manufacturing jobs here in the US? If GM went completely bankrupt do you think only ford and dodge would have bought the pieces? Dodge couldn't do it, as they were in a problem themselves, and I think Ford leveraged themselves heavily before the downturn.

That is my take on it.. but the anti-govt anythings these days don't care. GOVT- BAD blah blah blah..

You still didn't explain how "YOU" will get "YOUR" money back that was taken from you! Do I need to remind you it was "your" money to start with?

When the gov. sells their shares are you personally going to get a check?
When unemployment does not increase are you going to get a check?
When GM sells cars are you going to get a check?
When GM pays their corporate tax are you going to get a check?
No your money went up in smoke!

Of course the treasury will get their money back! That is the problem. It wasn't their money to begin with!

My widget company employs 250 people in a town of 1000 . That will take a big bite out of the local economy! To my community that is an economy of scale. Tell me how that would be different. You don't mind someone else throwing your money away to GM for you so why not my widget company?

As for some one picking up the pieces of GM if they went completely bankrupt I agree with you that Ford or Dodge would probably not have or been able to do it. So what. Businesses fail everyday. Why not GM?

 

[straight-shot]

TIME OUT!

That was my "383" post! I sure miss that guy!

We now return to our regularly scheduled program!

 

[Mafesto]

I think we can debate this into infinity & still see it differently.

Was it legal?........Obviously yes.
Was it good for millions of people?.......Obviously yes.
Was it a bad deal for millions of people?............Obviously yes.

Was it the right thing to do?.............Debateable

Was it done the right way?...............Obviously NO!
That is why most of us have a bur in our undies!

 

[ruffryder]

You still didn't explain how "YOU" will get "YOUR" money back that was taken from you! Do I need to remind you it was "your" money to start with?

When the gov. sells their shares are you personally going to get a check?
When unemployment does not increase are you going to get a check?
When GM sells cars are you going to get a check?
When GM pays their corporate tax are you going to get a check?
No your money went up in smoke!

Of course the treasury will get their money back! That is the problem. It wasn't their money to begin with!

I guess the way to look at it is to reduce the amount of money that the government would put out. You are right "I" won't get any money back, but maybe the situation reduced the amount of money that the government would spend, reducing the debt.

My widget company employs 250 people in a town of 1000 . That will take a big bite out of the local economy! To my community that is an economy of scale. Tell me how that would be different. You don't mind someone else throwing your money away to GM for you so why not my widget company?

The difference is economies of scale. In Michigan there are many small towns that directly or indirectly are reliant on the automobile manufacturers. I would think that many businesses are reliant on more than one main brand as well.

As for some one picking up the pieces of GM if they went completely bankrupt I agree with you that Ford or Dodge would probably not have or been able to do it. So what. Businesses fail everyday. Why not GM?

In my point of view, loosing a major manufacturing and technological base in the US is a bad thing and is part of our national security. We need the capability that GM allows us.

Also, with the amount of money that large companies give the govt in taxes, directly and indirectly, I think it is wise for the government to help out those companies from time to time.

Was this handled the best way? Maybe not. Would we all like to have seen all the top people fired? Most definitely. But life isn't fair, and neither is this, but I like the fact that GM is still around.

 

[straight-shot]

I guess the way to look at it is to reduce the amount of money that the government would put out. You are right "I" won't get any money back, but maybe the situation reduced the amount of money that the government would spend, reducing the debt.

This is the issue to begin with. If you don't care if your money got flushed down the toilet that is your choice.

The difference is economies of scale. In Michigan there are many small towns that directly or indirectly are reliant on the automobile manufacturers. I would think that many businesses are reliant on more than one main brand as well.

I still think my widget company is an economy of scale, employing 250 in a community of 1000.

In my point of view, loosing a major manufacturing and technological base in the US is a bad thing and is part of our national security. We need the capability that GM allows us.

?

Also, with the amount of money that large companies give the govt in taxes, directly and indirectly, I think it is wise for the government to help out those companies from time to time.

Gov't profiting from your money!

Was this handled the best way? Maybe not. Would we all like to have seen all the top people fired? Most definitely. But life isn't fair, and neither is this, but I like the fact that GM is still around.

I say F GM!

Good clean debate! I like it!
We will just have to agree to disagree!

 

[trikerider]

Posted this earlier, but just in the case that you don't know:

General Motors Co (GM.UL) can get a tax break of up to $45 billion as part of its U.S. government-financed restructuring, documents filed with federal regulators earlier this year showed.

The Wall Street Journal earlier reported that GM would not have to pay federal taxes on up to $50 billion in profits. A later version of this story revised this figure to about $45 billion.

This figure also includes $18.88 billion of carry-forwards, according to the automaker's annual filing from April.

Under the Troubled Asset Relief Program, losses racked up by GM before its government-funded bankruptcy can be used to offset its future tax liabilities.

 

[B C]

I think we can debate this into infinity & still see it differently.

Was it legal?........Obviously yes.

NO, and they are investigating it...http://pa-magazine.com/industry-news/u-s-opens-investigation-of-possible-illegal-activity-in-dealer-cuts/

Honestly this bailout was the most corrupt thing I've ever had the displeasure of being involved in. Only in the new america can multi-generation, fully capitalized, profitable businesses be pulled from tax paying citizens. It happened with GM, and even more so with Chrysler. If the public actually knew what went on behind closed doors they would be appauled. Maybe not, but they sure as hell should be.

-your former local Chevy Buick dealer.

 

[milehighassassin]

NO, and they are investigating it...http://pa-magazine.com/industry-new...-of-possible-illegal-activity-in-dealer-cuts/

Honestly this bailout was the most corrupt thing I've ever had the displeasure of being involved in. Only in the new america can multi-generation, fully capitalized, profitable businesses be pulled from tax paying citizens. It happened with GM, and even more so with Chrysler. If the public actually knew what went on behind closed doors they would be appauled. Maybe not, but they sure as hell should be.

-your former local Chevy Buick dealer.

That dealer cutting is only one portion of the bailout for GM. I don't see anything that says that should be illegal. GM owns a brand, if they don't want you to sell THEIR brand they don't have to let you. Just like if you open up Billy's Bar and decide to allow other people to open up these establishments and sell your food (recipe). You can at any point decide you don't want them to sell your stuff anymore.

Much of the problem with GM was that there was too much dealer competition. If Joe Consumer didn't like the price he drove 5 blocks to the next GM dealer and got a lower price. This in turn hurts GM's Product because it reduces the value. So you buy your truck for $50k and in two years it is worth $30k. This is is part of the reason why.

 

[B C]

I'm not saying the dealer cuts were illegal, Bo's bankruptcy court judge made it all legal. How they went about the choices they made is where the illegal activity comes into play. I'll even agree that the dealer network needed thinned out, but when the decision is not performance based an injustice had been done. And if you think it's OK for the Federal Govt. to be involved in the fate of your private business- there is probably some franchises available in China.

 

[straight-shot]

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html


Can somebody show me in the constitution where the government taking over GM is legal?

 

[colorado logger]

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html


Can somebody show me in the constitution where the government taking over GM is legal?

GM had a choice,

 

[straight-shot]

Doesn't matter if GM wanted it or not. Still wasn't legal for the govt. to take over a privately owned company!

 

[B C]

Legal Schmegal, the current regime just changes the rules as we go. Nowwwww it's legal!

 

[milehighassassin]

Legal Schmegal, the current regime just changes the rules as we go. Nowwwww it's legal!

"Current Regime", Really? What about the last one? They didn't change any rules, nor did they violate the consitution.

 

[milehighassassin]

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html


Can somebody show me in the constitution where the government taking over GM is legal?

Can you show me where it is illegal?

Because unless it is illegal, then it is legal. Make sense? Unless something is prohibited, then you have every right to do it.

 

[Dogmeat]

I categorically refuse to buy another GM vehicle.

My next truck is going to be a Ford, pure and simple.

I refuse to support this.

 

[Mafesto]

Can you show me where it is illegal?

Because unless it is illegal, then it is legal. Make sense? Unless something is prohibited, then you have every right to do it.

I don't give a s#!t if it was legal or not.

IT WAS WRONG.

That is not the USA our Forefathers fought and died to create.

It should have been one or the other.

Bankruptcy w/restructuring from the top down

or

Bail-out using low/no interest govt loans (all to be paid back), still honoring existing stocks, still honoring outstanding payables to vendors, and working with dealers individually pertaining to company profitability.

GM took the best of both of the above. (what was best for them anyway)
Just plain & simple.....wrong!

Kudos to Ford (& the foreign companies) for thriving in such a slanted playing field!
These companies have proven that they deserve our business.

 

[Dogmeat]

It makes me kind of ashamed I drive a GM truck as it is, even though it was built in 2005.

 

[Mafesto]

It makes me kind of ashamed I drive a GM truck as it is, even though it was built in 2005.

Same here, my wife drives a Buick Rainier.

What's harder yet is my buddy (also my neighbor) sells GM vehicles.
I will still buy used from him, and support their service dept for sure.
After all, it wasn't the dealers that chose to rape the taxpayers.