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GM to become CM (Chinese Motors)?

Mafesto

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By SHARON SILKE CARTY, AP Auto Writer Sharon Silke Carty, Ap Auto Writer – Sat Nov 13, 3:39 pm ET
DETROIT – Among the banks helping General Motors with its initial public stock offering next week are two identified by initials only: ICBC and CICC.

Americans uncomfortable with U.S. government ownership of General Motors may want to hear more: One of those banks is the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, one of China's four big central government banks. The other, China International Capital Corp., is a joint venture run primarily by Central Huijin Investment Ltd., an arm of the state, and Morgan Stanley.

This is the first time Chinese government banks have participated in a major U.S.-issued IPO, according to IPO tracking firm Dealogic. The banks are listed as co-managers in the offering, meaning they will sell a portion of the new shares.

Chinese automaker SAIC, GM's partner in China, is finalizing plans to buy a roughly 1 percent stake, worth about $500 million, in GM's IPO, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday. SAIC is owned by the Shanghai city government.

Other foreign investors that are interested include several sovereign wealth funds located in the Middle East and Asia. The Journal says those funds, which manage the finances of royal families and some nations, could invest $1 billion in GM's IPO.

There could be political backlash for President Barack Obama, who has spent the past week in Asia addressing economic issues, like currency exchange differences between the U.S. and China. Obama has argued that China artificially deflates its currency, the yuan, in an attempt to make its exports cheaper.

Many Americans were unhappy when the U.S. bailed out GM, calling the company "Government Motors."

GM 's Nov. 18 stock offering will reduce the U.S. Treasury's stake in the company from 61 percent to 43 percent, and will help payback the more than $50 billion that taxpayers invested in GM to keep it from collapsing. More stock offerings will happen in the next year or so, letting the government fully divest from the automaker.

"It's a very political topic, but what Americans need to remember is that General Motors is an international company," says Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with IHS Automotive. "If we want to get our money back, we need to understand that they have to do business on a global basis."

The U.S. Treasury has been clear that international investors are welcome to invest in GM, and many outside the U.S. are considering taking stakes in the company.

"We expect that a large and diverse group of institutional investors will be offered an opportunity to participate, with no single investor or group of investors receiving a disproportionate share or unusual treatment," the Treasury said in a recent statement.

The U.S. has become a popular haven for Chinese investors, second only to Australia in attracting Chinese stock investments, says Derek Scissors, a research fellow at conservative think-tank The Heritage Foundation. The first half of 2010 was a record year for China, Scissors says. China has sunk $45 billion into investments and engineering projects worldwide. About $1.6 billion of those investments came to the U.S.

In China, businesses operate with the funding and blessing of the government, says Tim Dunne, director of global automotive operations for J.D. Power and Associates. The government behaves like an interested shareholder, ensuring companies have competent management and ensuring the companies boost economic growth in their regions.

Many Chinese automakers are looking for a way into the U.S. market, he says. China is the largest car market in the world, but the U.S. is the most profitable, he says.

"The amount of money changing hands here is much greater," he says. The average selling price of a car in the U.S. is $27,500, compared with about $17,000 in China. "Multiply that over millions of vehicles, and it's quite a difference."

SAIC and GM already have a long-standing partnership in China -- GM could not sell cars in China without partnering with a local business -- and it's unclear what size stake SAIC may take in GM. The deal would need Chinese government approval.

Chris Theodore, president of consulting firm Theodore & Associates, says SAIC's investment in GM is likely an attempt to strengthen its ties with the automaker. Theodore, who was part of a group that tried to take over Volvo before it was sold to China's Geely group, says SAIC isn't the kind of company that can branch out into U.S. sales. Most of its models use GM technology and are essentially GM cars.

"They rely on GM for a lot of their profitability," Theodore says.

Michael Maduell, president of the Sovereign Wealth Fund Institute, a California-based group that watches sovereign wealth fund investments, says global investors are looking at the U.S. because they believe the overall market is undervalued. Other potential investors in GM include Abu Dhabi's Mubadala and Singapore's Temasek, which are both known for actively investing in companies, Maduell says.

Investors are "looking at emerging markets, like China and India, but all those assets are overvalued," Maduell says. "America still has a lot of fantastic investment opportunities in real estate and small- to mid-cap stocks."
 

Mafesto

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This whole thing stinks.

A common investor is not eligible to get in on GM's IPO. Only "large approved institutions" can purchase.

Further more, many of us had GM stock before the failure. We stuck with it & rode it down to nil.
The govt. bailed GM out with OUR tax dollars & now our original shares are worthless.
Meanwhile, the execs have resumed their literal jet-set lifestyle & a new IPO is offered to an elete group of investors.

I've always touted the "Buy American" mentality, but after this I would but a Titan or even a Tundra before another GM vehicle.

I am done with GM & I hope the rest of you are outraged enough to join me!
 

milehighassassin

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My next truck will be a gmc.

Question for those of you mad at gm...


Do you not buy any companies product that files bankruptcy?

United airlines?
Frontier ?
Chrysler?
Chucky cheese
Gamestop
Abracrombi fitch
Maceys
Linens and things
Kmart
Sears
Checker auto
Etc, etc

In 2007 alone over 13,000 businesses filed for bankruptcy protection.


Do you avoid chase? Citicorp? Wells Fargo? Bank of america?
 

Mafesto

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I'll admit that in the past I've been apathetic & did not give my purchases the consideration that I should have.

I'm sick of it.

We consumers have a very strong vote....our money.
Given the choice, why wouldn't we buy from a company that ran itself responsibly?
Why wouldn't we reward the companies that did not require our tax dollars to bail them out?

I realize there are time when we don't have the choice.
But most of the time we do.

Why would I consider a GM (when their irresponsible practices cost me $$)
when Ford for example has same products that I did not have to subsidize?
 
S
Nov 26, 2007
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Custer, SD
My next truck will be a gmc.

Question for those of you mad at gm...


Do you not buy any companies product that files bankruptcy?

United airlines?
Frontier ?
Chrysler?
Chucky cheese
Gamestop
Abracrombi fitch
Maceys
Linens and things
Kmart
Sears
Checker auto
Etc, etc

In 2007 alone over 13,000 businesses filed for bankruptcy protection.


Do you avoid chase? Citicorp? Wells Fargo? Bank of america?

These are all companies that were not owned by the government and paid for with "our" (mine and yours) tax money!
Gm was and still is partially owned by the treasury of the US. If we could get a return on our investment I might buy GM products too.

They took your money and invested it in GM for you involuntarily and you have no opportunity to get any of your money back. Would you voluntarily invest in my widget factory if you knew I would keep all of the profits and give you nothing? Highly unlikely!

This is confiscation by the govt. of private property plain and simple!

I'm with you Mafesto! F GM! Let them die!
 
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milehighassassin

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No way the government will get their money back if GM dies. When GM offers their IPO the government will have the ability to get money back. They make money anytime GM makes money under the current setup.

Chrysler took government money, twice now actually.

These other companies still had debts that went unpaid, maybe to you, maybe to your neighbor. Maybe it was your uncle? But the bottom line is that they didn't pay the money they owed and someone else lost out.

All of the banks I listed took government money. Do you avoid them?
 
S
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I'm not worried about the governments money!It wasn't the governments money to begin with!!!!!
It was your money and my money! We will never get it back!
The "treasury" will make money off GM by using your money and you don't get a dime of it back! Don't you see that?
And they did offer their IPO to hand picked institutions, not to average investors like you and I that technically owned GM after the bailout since the gov. used our money! we should have been first in line!
I give enough of my money to the gov. the way it is! I don't need them investing it in a lose lose proposition for me!
 

IDspud

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My Money was well spent.

I am certain that I saved tax dollars by keeping how many thousand families off of welfare. Think about it. If they had gone under, MY town would have had THREE dealerships of people out of work. Those people would have two choices, find another job or go on welfare. Don't forget the actual factory towns that would have dried up and gone away. More pressure would have been placed on the already weak job markets. Houses by the thousands would have been turned back to the banks. ON and ON and ON.

Yes it sucks they got into the shape they did. Yes it could have been prevented. However, absolute devastation in an already destroyed economy would have been the only result of a complete bankruptcy.

Don't get me wrong, I am not proud of GM or my country's current financial situation, but sometimes you simply have to settle for the lesser of two evils.

Stop and think for awhile about the long term effects of that many unemployed people being sent out into our current workforce. It could easily have been YOU that lost your job as your employer suddenly had more qualified people to replace you with.
 

IDspud

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Mafesto,

How is it better to eliminate an American Company completely?

Wouldn't you rather buy from U. S. built company that has a little help from China than lose that ability completely?

You claim you want to support buying stateside, but you trash the very ingenuity that allows you that choice?

This is the very CONSUMER logic that drives US industry out of the US.

The more competition for quality we create stateside, the better that quality will be. Less american automakers is NOT going to increase our ability to sustain ourselves.
 

Mafesto

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I simply am not a disciple of the "Too big to fail" mentality.

That being said, I understand your arguement that GM's demise would have been more costly than the bail-out. I don't agree on a long term basis, but that's a whole different debate.

Here is how it should have played out.

All US dollars should have been stock based. Not the case, over $40 billion was a gift, not a loan & never needs to be paid back.
Original stock integrity should have been preserved.

Gm just came off their most profitable quarter in decades, yet the $40 plus billion above goes unpaid & billions in dept to their suppliers goes unpaid & billions in old useless stock goes unpaid, yet execs continue to make millions.
If you think that's a sound economic way to resolve a mis-managed company, I have to disagree.

And to suggest that my attitude is un-American is such a distortion that it's laughable.

Yes, Ford will get my future vehicle purchases.
You GM lovers need to take off your bow tie undies & pull your head out of the sand.
If this offends you......good!
 

milehighassassin

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I'm going to buy a vehicle based on the quality of the vehicle. If GM is not producing a quality vehicle, I will not buy it. If they are I certainly will consider them.

BTW, GM was profitable but it wasn't their most profitable quarter in decades. Maybe a few years but not even this decade let alone decades (meaning at least 20 years).
 

Mafesto

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BTW, GM was profitable but it wasn't their most profitable quarter in decades. Maybe a few years but not even this decade let alone decades (meaning at least 20 years).

I should have stated... most profitable since 2004

My point of all this is that the bankruptcy lawyers and politicians (lawmakers) have distorted bankruptcy from what it was designed to be, into the proverbial Golden Parachute & the GM bailout is the poster child of corrupt & crooked.

I firmly believe that in the long run, letting the free market run it's course & dictate the outcome would be the best for the economy overall.
However, with the govt manipulating the market the way it does, "free market" is pretty much a fairy tale any more.

Bottom line is I take this very personal.
I will never be a wealthy man, & I deeply resent the leaders who squandered this company into the ground continuing their lavish lifestyle at the expense of the common man (all of us).
 

ruffryder

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My Money was well spent.

I am certain that I saved tax dollars by keeping how many thousand families off of welfare. Think about it. If they had gone under, MY town would have had THREE dealerships of people out of work. Those people would have two choices, find another job or go on welfare. Don't forget the actual factory towns that would have dried up and gone away. More pressure would have been placed on the already weak job markets. Houses by the thousands would have been turned back to the banks. ON and ON and ON.

Yes it sucks they got into the shape they did. Yes it could have been prevented. However, absolute devastation in an already destroyed economy would have been the only result of a complete bankruptcy.

Don't get me wrong, I am not proud of GM or my country's current financial situation, but sometimes you simply have to settle for the lesser of two evils.

Stop and think for awhile about the long term effects of that many unemployed people being sent out into our current workforce. It could easily have been YOU that lost your job as your employer suddenly had more qualified people to replace you with.

Excellent post.
 
S
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Custer, SD
Idaho milehigh and ruffy.
You have an obligation to my widget factory too! You will send me $1,500 each to pay for my new widget cutters and other operating expenses.
You do not have a choice in this matter but it will keep the 250 employees off welfare and put more money in my pocket.
Also, sorry to inform you that you will also see 0% return on your investment!
Thank you!
 

milehighassassin

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Idaho milehigh and ruffy.
You have an obligation to my widget factory too! You will send me $1,500 each to pay for my new widget cutters and other operating expenses.
You do not have a choice in this matter but it will keep the 250 employees off welfare and put more money in my pocket.
Also, sorry to inform you that you will also see 0% return on your investment!
Thank you!

I have zero obligation to you.

Those that INVESTED in gm knew the risks. Just like purchasing any companies stock. There are always risks.
 
S
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Custer, SD
"I have zero obligation to you.

Those that INVESTED in gm knew the risks. Just like purchasing any companies stock. There are always risks."


So you are telling me your tax dollars were "invested" in GM.
Please explain to me and others how you will get a return on your investment.
You had no obligation to GM either but you gave them your money involuntarily!
Your money was confiscated from you and spent on GM. you have no chance to see that money again.
You don't seem to be too worried about that so why not do the right thing and bail out my widget company?
 
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B
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"I have zero obligation to you.

Those that INVESTED in gm knew the risks. Just like purchasing any companies stock. There are always risks."


So you are telling me your tax dollars were "invested" in GM.
Please explain to me and others how you will get a return on your investment.
You had no obligation to GM either but you gave them your money involuntarily!
Your money was confiscated from you and spent on GM. you have no chance to see that money again.
You don't seem to be too worried about that so why not do the right thing and bail out my widget company?

Well we are waiting for your answere Milehy.
 
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