Getting Your Buddies to Wear Their Gear

[Chadx]

Tucker sno cat corp does our training at work every 5years, 2012 was my last class. The instructor recommended having a shovel at the easiest place to access it so i chose on my tunnel for that and my other concerns. Point taken about doing a beacon search while holding a shovel.

Thanks for replying with that. So I stand corrected that not all intructors specify wearing all safety gear on your person. Would be interesting to ask them at the next training session this specific shovel and probe question and see their current opinion. Very well may be the same, but interesting none the less.

 

[Chadx]

I also think there are higher odds of being hurt by your own shovel than a multiple victim burial were you are on of the victims that self rescues, still has a backpack on and then finds your buddy.

If you want to be safe you should wear a life jacket at all times!

lifetime odds of 94,000 to one of dying in a snowmobile accident
lifetime odds of 89,000 to one of dying in a flood

I'm willing to listen and learn from real examples, but as of yet, I'm still not convinced regarding the shovel injury arguement as I'm not seeing how a shovel strapped in your pack is going to cause trauma. It and the backpack might even reduce trauma if it protects your back from taking a hit. So we can speculate both ways. I am not saying an injury can't happen as it sounds feasible, but not seeing any concrete statistics or even examples either way (causing trauma or protecting from it) so i will reserve judgement until real factual data is shared.

Truth numbers are not always what seems logical. ...and making up flood and snowmobile statistics doesn't further the arguement either way (Unless those are actual documented statistics at which point I apologize...and ask the source).

Double riders in an avy probably are rare but like the double in cooke this spring where one of the guys caught in it helped dig out the second victim from a deep burial and he survived.

I guess rather than the question being "why should I wear my shovel and probe on my back rather than on the sled" the real question would be "why would one not". It comes down to best practice and what most trainers recommend and then why one would choose to ignore the recommendation of that standard set forth by industry experts. Why choose to ignore one part of the training and but not other parts?

 

[TRS]

Let me ask this question. If you were walking in the bush on an African lion hunt would you carry your gun or leave it back at the jeep. Its uncomfortable and heavy to carry and I may get injured if I fall. (Paradox?)
In the heat of the moment do you think you or your buddy could survive without this elementary tool, the shovel? I have witnessed two guys frantically digging with their clutch guards because they forgot their shovels. Think about that for a moment.
If you don't have gear "on person" and know how to use it, you don't ride with our group. I buy and carry my gear to save you and is your duty to reciprocate.

May we all ride safe, and come home safely.

 

[boondocker97]

...I also think there are higher odds of being hurt by your own shovel than a multiple victim burial were you are on of the victims that self rescues, still has a backpack on and then finds your buddy.

If you want to be safe you should wear a life jacket at all times!

lifetime odds of 94,000 to one of dying in a snowmobile accident
lifetime odds of 89,000 to one of dying in a flood

I personally have never heard of anyone being injured by their shovel (every kind of freak accident is possible I guess), but I have heard of someone self-rescuing themselves in the last year because one arm was free to reach behind their head and get the shovel out. I'd be interested to see that statistic more focused on just backcountry riders and not snowmobiling as a whole. Also, I bet that statistic takes into account the chances of the average person dying in a snowmobile accident, not even a regular snowmobile rider.

In the Forest Service's latest ruling regarding snowmobile area designations, they comment that there are about 4 million people that use FS land to snowmobile annually. In the last 10 seasons there was an average of 10 snowmobile avalanche fatalities per season (last year was 11). That puts the odds of dying in an avalanche for one year (not lifetime) at 1 in 400,000. Assuming the numbers stay constant and your snowmobiling lifetime is 10 years your odds of dying by avalanche are 1 in 40,000; 20 years is 1 in 20,000; and 30 years is 1 in 13,333. I haven't done stats in a while so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I'll keep my avalanche airbag on and leave the life jacket for boating season.

 

[elkhunt]

I'm willing to listen and learn from real examples, but as of yet, I'm still not convinced regarding the shovel injury arguement as I'm not seeing how a shovel strapped in your pack is going to cause trauma. It and the backpack might even reduce trauma if it protects your back from taking a hit. So we can speculate both ways. I am not saying an injury can't happen as it sounds feasible, but not seeing any concrete statistics or even examples either way (causing trauma or protecting from it) so i will reserve judgement until real factual data is shared.

Truth numbers are not always what seems logical. ...and making up flood and snowmobile statistics doesn't further the arguement either way (Unless those are actual documented statistics at which point I apologize...and ask the source).

Double burials probably are rare but like the double burial in cooke this spring where one self rescued and then helped the other riders dig out the second victim from a deep burial and he survived, it does happen.

Why yes they are real numbers. They come from the Harvard Center for risk analysis book titled, Risk: A practical guide for deciding what's really safe and what's really dangerous in the world around you.
I will say the web is alive with stat's so I am sure someone can find numbers that don't match, but I think Harvard is a good source.
Check out the following site for more risk info: www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

I'm not saying it didn't happen but will you reference the double burial you cite on the following site? http://www.avalanche.org/accidents.php?date=2013-2014&sort=activity

Don't get me wrong I total agree with you that the most important thing is to have your gear and know how to use it!

 

[TRS]

I personally have never heard of anyone being injured by their shovel (every kind of freak accident is possible I guess), but I have heard of someone self-rescuing themselves in the last year because one arm was free to reach behind their head and get the shovel out. I'd be interested to see that statistic more focused on just backcountry riders and not snowmobiling as a whole. Also, I bet that statistic takes into account the chances of the average person dying in a snowmobile accident, not even a regular snowmobile rider.

In the Forest Service's latest ruling regarding snowmobile area designations, they comment that there are about 4 million people that use FS land to snowmobile annually. In the last 10 seasons there was an average of 10 snowmobile avalanche fatalities per season (last year was 11). That puts the odds of dying in an avalanche for one year (not lifetime) at 1 in 400,000. Assuming the numbers stay constant and your snowmobiling lifetime is 10 years your odds of dying by avalanche are 1 in 40,000; 20 years is 1 in 20,000; and 30 years is 1 in 13,333. I haven't done stats in a while so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I'll keep my avalanche airbag on and leave the life jacket for boating season.

However you look at it, I don't want anyone in my group to be the 1 in whatever statistic. Unless it's the lottery, well maybe not that either.

 

[Chadx]

Tucker sno cat corp does our training at work every 5years, 2012 was my last class. The instructor recommended having a shovel at the easiest place to access it so i chose on my tunnel for that and my other concerns.

Chaddspadd, I think i misunderstood your above email. I thought you were saying tucker snowcat did your training. I emailed tucker snow cat about what they recommend in their current curriculum, since you said your last training was 2012, and they said they don't do any type of avy training. Reply: "Tucker Sno-Cat has never done avalanche training?? We manufacture over snow vehicles. Thanks"

Maybe you meant something different in your above comment and i misunderstood. Just trying to confirm current recommendation from whoever did your 2012 training to see their current take on what you said they taught back then regarding "putting you shovel where ever it is most convenient". Thanks.

 

[Chadx]

ď

Why yes they are real numbers. They come from the Harvard Center for risk analysis book titled, Risk: A practical guide for deciding what's really safe and what's really dangerous in the world around you.

ok, glad they are real numbers, but since i don't have that book, i don't know there conditions. Were snowmobile numbers based on number of registered snowmobiles? Or a poll? Where did the fatality numbers come from to calculate percentages? Flood deaths from what portion of a population? Those living in a flood zone? Or cross section including those in desert areas. How was that base group determined? All those questions are more or less rhetorical because what a person (even at harvard) chooses to make their statistics convey does not necessarily translate into real word scenarios or examples.

I'll look up the cooke city avy report where two riders were in a slide. It was on Henderson mountain a few days after the fatal one (RIP Donnie) also on Henderson.

In the end we all agree getting caught in an avalanche or assisting in a rescue are rare, especially if we use our training to reduce risk. But we carry transceivers, probes and shovels because of that "what if". If the arguement is about odds (getting separated from your sled and shovel, or getting caught in an avy at all) and a person truly thinks the odds are that remote, why would one even carry a shovel and probe at all?

The same field experts that train you to understand avy terrain, risk and train you to use your shovel, probe, and transceiver to perform rescues do train us to keep shovel and probe on our person. Why ignore that part of their training?

One can't say you are trained and follow that training if one chooses to ignore parts of it. Like ignoring that cellphones can interfere and keeping your cellphone right over your transceiver. Or ignoring the recommended distance between probes while doing your spiral because its "faster to make them further apart and the odds are you will still get a strike on the person".

We all want to do our best for ourselves and our riding partners. Why not follow ALL aspects of avalanche preparedness best practices.

 

[elkhunt]

Chadx "
The same field experts that train you to understand avy terrain, risk and train you to use your shovel, probe, and transceiver to perform rescues do train us to keep shovel and probe on our person. Why ignore that part of their training?

One can't say you are trained and follow that training if one chooses to ignore parts of it. Like ignoring that cellphones can interfere and keeping your cellphone right over your transceiver. Or ignoring the recommended distance between probes while doing your spiral because its "faster to make them further apart and the odds are you will still get a strike on the person".

We all want to do our best for ourselves and our riding partners. Why not follow ALL aspects of avalanche preparedness best practices. "

Everything in the above training can be proven with just a few experiments, except one part... Where you carry your shovel is a hypothetical of what if's
What if your pack is pulled of your back when you go tumbling in the avy? What if your separated from your sled ect, ect.

I can also tell you has been lots of "training" ignored over time how else would we advanced as a society? If you never try something new the same old thing will always be the best!

 

[Chadx]

Everything in the above training can be proven with just a few experiments, except one part... Where you carry your shovel is a hypothetical of what if's
...

I can also tell you has been lots of "training" ignored over time how else would we advanced as a society? If you never try something new the same old thing will always be the best!

I guess it depends on your angle because it seems the pertinent part is how effective one can perform a rescue and it can be proven quite easily with an experiment that if ones shovel is on the sled and you can not access that shovel for any reason, that it is impossible for one to perform a swift and effective digging rescue.

Not sure what to make of your arguement about ignoring training to advance as a society or how it applies to this dicussuon so I'll let someone else tackle that one. Ha.

In the end, I suppose it's a good sign the this thread dove down to this level of detail; debating shovel location; rather than "wearing gear isn't needed and it's not worth the expense" conversations. That shows the positive momentum behind the "train and wear the gear" movement and is really great to see.

Perhaps those on this forum are ahead of the curve to embrace that but it's a good sign and hopefully, with conversations and education, the percentage of trained and geared up riders will continue to rise. I think that is something we can all not only agree on, but personally take actuon do to get there (talk about it, invite others to training, expose others to hands on use of the equipment so they understand it, or even financially by having buddy gear or helping someone afford the gear).

That is my pep talk and here is a cheesy cheer to go along with it...
Yay snowest members! Ha.
.
.
.

 

[elkhunt]

I guess it depends on your angle because it seems the pertinent part is how effective one can perform a rescue and it can be proven quite easily with an experiment that if ones shovel is on the sled and you can not access that shovel for any reason, that it is impossible for one to perform a swift and effective digging rescue.

Not sure what to make of your arguement about ignoring training to advance as a society or how it applies to this dicussuon so I'll let someone else tackle that one. Ha.

In the end, I suppose it's a good sign the this thread dove down to this level of detail; debating shovel location; rather than "wearing gear isn't needed and it's not worth the expense" conversations. That shows the positive momentum behind the "train and wear the gear" movement and is really great to see.

Perhaps those on this forum are ahead of the curve to embrace that but it's a good sign and hopefully, with conversations and education, the percentage of trained and geared up riders will continue to rise. I think that is something we can all not only agree on, but personally take actuon do to get there (talk about it, invite others to training, expose others to hands on use of the equipment so they understand it, or even financially by having buddy gear or helping someone afford the gear).

That is my pep talk and here is a cheesy cheer to go along with it...
Yay snowest members! Ha.
.
.
.

Hey Man, it's all good! I respect your opinion.
IF there was snow we would be riding and not have so much time to take jabs at this topic

So be safe and live to ride another day. Meanwhile I'm taking the jet boat out (yes I'll wear my life jacket).

 

[WFOWA]

Ever wonder why there's no trees where you took that photo from?

Trees aren't necessarily a sign of safety either.

 

[Trashy]

I like to have a shovel strapped to the back of my sled. Enough that I carry one there. Before I carried one on the sled I had to work a lot harder getting myself or buddies unstuck because I was trying to shovel snow with my hands. It's a lot easier and takes a lot less effort with a shovel, and I would rather expend my energy riding.

I do, however, still have one in my Snowpulse bag. The nice compromise here is that I never have to remove my pack in avalanche terrain in order to gain access to my shovel. If you can afford a sled (or an airbag for that matter) you can afford to spend $30 for a second shovel.

 

[Chadx]

Meanwhile I'm taking the jet boat out (yes I'll wear my life jacket).

Ha! Cheers

 

[boondocker97]

Trees aren't necessarily a sign of safety either.

Nope. The avy guys out of Bozeman told our class that unless you can put your arms out and touch a tree with each hand, they are not helping to hold the snow.

 

[James T Kirk]

Trees aren't necessarily a sign of safety either.

You are missing the point...