Getting Your Buddies to Wear Their Gear
- Thread starter boondocker97
- Start date
I feel the same way when I ride. One guy is newer and doesn't carry anything, I carry two shovels, one on sled and one on back, when he gets stuck I loan out a shovel so we can both dig.
Other guy knows better, carries a beacon, asks if mine is on. Then I realized that half the time he doesn't have a shovel, the other half it is buried in his sled bag, he never wears a pack. I realized that he asks if my beacon is on for him, not me.
Third bud is ALWAYS prepared, has shovels in the right places, wears a bag, always has beacon on, and always has spare batts for me. (I tend to turn mine on once a year, batts die, I put new ones in, lol.)
Other guy knows better, carries a beacon, asks if mine is on. Then I realized that half the time he doesn't have a shovel, the other half it is buried in his sled bag, he never wears a pack. I realized that he asks if my beacon is on for him, not me.
Third bud is ALWAYS prepared, has shovels in the right places, wears a bag, always has beacon on, and always has spare batts for me. (I tend to turn mine on once a year, batts die, I put new ones in, lol.)
If you are riding avy terrain you need to go prepared. I am one of those guys who MUCH prefers his tunnel bag to a pack. I have an avy pack but only wear it on days I expect higher risks, otherwise my gear rides on the sled. If somebody gets buried, I still have my gear, and honestly it is easier to access on the sled than triple strapped to my back in an avy pack. As long as you do not have multiple sleds in the danger zone (one at a time on the hill) I do not understand the argument where I might lose my gear as the rescuer? I wear my beacon every ride, and so do my riding buddies. That to me is the critical piece that allows you to locate and be located.
It is all a bunch of calculated risks out there. The people you ride with, the terrain your ride, the weather, LOTS of fators more important than how I carry my gear. I have one riding buddy who doesn't ever carry more than a beacon/shovel/probe, no pack, no survival gear to speak of BUT, he is one of those guys that would search and dig for you until his arms fell off. As mentioned earlier, I find that attribute much more comforting than a pack full of gear. The rest of us carry enough combined to live in the forest for a week.
YOU need to be comfortable, clearly you are not. I read a bit of irrational fear in the OP but that may be healthy if you are not comfortable with the area you are riding in, or the people you are riding with. You can't make them wear a pack, and I am not convinced wearing a pack is ANY better anyway.
One massive difference is that we ride the same area week in and week out and have been doing so for better than a decade. Coming from out of town and not knowing all of the risks would lead me to be more cautious as well. I think the bottom line is to ride with people you are equipped to rescue as well as them being capable of rescuing you. Your options are probably limited to not riding with those who do not take the dangers seriously. As mentioned, there are plenty of people who do. I hope you find each other and have a safe season!
It is all a bunch of calculated risks out there. The people you ride with, the terrain your ride, the weather, LOTS of fators more important than how I carry my gear. I have one riding buddy who doesn't ever carry more than a beacon/shovel/probe, no pack, no survival gear to speak of BUT, he is one of those guys that would search and dig for you until his arms fell off. As mentioned earlier, I find that attribute much more comforting than a pack full of gear. The rest of us carry enough combined to live in the forest for a week.
YOU need to be comfortable, clearly you are not. I read a bit of irrational fear in the OP but that may be healthy if you are not comfortable with the area you are riding in, or the people you are riding with. You can't make them wear a pack, and I am not convinced wearing a pack is ANY better anyway.
One massive difference is that we ride the same area week in and week out and have been doing so for better than a decade. Coming from out of town and not knowing all of the risks would lead me to be more cautious as well. I think the bottom line is to ride with people you are equipped to rescue as well as them being capable of rescuing you. Your options are probably limited to not riding with those who do not take the dangers seriously. As mentioned, there are plenty of people who do. I hope you find each other and have a safe season!
no beacon you stay at the trailer, I carry a spare as well.....but I agree my stuff goes in the tunnel bag as well, I have a avi bag for bad looking days ect and usually wear it. But I try not to take any big risks and ride with great guys. One of the problems I had with the pack full of stuff is that I found myself carrying less and less stuff that could be needed, with using the tunnel pack I take a small machine shop with me. And for a big guy like myself its FAR quicker to get the avi stuff off the tunnel then out of the backpack. The most important thing is to have all the stuff somewhere and know how to use it.
Take an Avalanche Course.
A few years ago while at Haydays my son had saved up and bought a beacon and probe. At that time I said something like why do you need that? He looked up at me and said it's not just for me dad. I turned around and bought exactly what he bought. Since then we ride with all the gear including avy backpacks and took a avy class from Mike Duffy, and will take it again this year and every year from now on. If I can learn this from a teenager, your friends I would hope can learn from you. Good luck!
A few years ago while at Haydays my son had saved up and bought a beacon and probe. At that time I said something like why do you need that? He looked up at me and said it's not just for me dad. I turned around and bought exactly what he bought. Since then we ride with all the gear including avy backpacks and took a avy class from Mike Duffy, and will take it again this year and every year from now on. If I can learn this from a teenager, your friends I would hope can learn from you. Good luck!
I certainly see this logic, but the very real possibility of being separated from the sled (and shovel/probe) is more than enough incentive for *me* to want to carry the shovel.
I agree - it seems unlikely that you''ll be away from your sled when an avalanche occurs, but what if? What if a slope you're riding unexpectedly lets go, knocks you off the sled, you catch a tree, sled gets dragged 600# over rocks and trees?
(true story...not me, but someone here)
Broken sleds, mistakes, accidents, etc - there's LOTS of ways for you to wind up separated from the sled.
I agree, packs are a pain to take off & get shovels out; I actually carry a shovel on my pack AND on the sled.
It seems unlikely that you'll find yourself in need of a shovel with the sled not right there, but it'll feel like a REALLY long minute or three while you run back to get it if you DO need it.
I'd just put the shovel in a bag & be done with it, personally.
B
Bcorn
Well-known member
Coming from the flatlands ,yes I'am cautious as hell and a little uncomfortable big difference riding off the trail here compared to out west never been there this will be my first trip.I believe in the philosophy of I should be able to rescue someone in my group because I would want them to be able to rescue me.I always plan for the worst and hope for the best.I feel like I owe it to my family and those I will be riding with to make it as safe as it can be ,granted everything we do has risks but we can minimize them and if things go bad I won't be the guy who didn't know what to do.I'am taking the Mike Duffy class, reading some books on avys,buying the gear ,pack,probe ,shovel and beacon.
The argument that as the rescuer, you may lose your gear is as follows-
You and 2 buddies are on a hill that has never, ever slid. Your sidehilling having fun doing your best Burandt impression, new snow, unlimited fun. Woohoo!
The said slope lets go, sweeps you off your sled and take your sled, your friends, their sleds and buries them. You survive because you swam for your life in the slide.
Your the only one around on top of the slide. Your friends are buried, somewhere. You start a search with your beacon as it is on your body. You locate one friend 3ft down and your beacon is still going off because you have 2 friends that are buried. You choose to save the first friend by digging down but you look for your sled which has your shovel and probe on it. You can't find your buried sled. No digging, no probing. Damn. You attempt to dig with your hands but the snow, as in all avalanches, is packed like concrete. You can't dig. You don't even know if your in the right spot because your probe is with your shovel on your buried sled. Your fingers are bleeding from digging, you try to dig with your handheld gps to no avail. You try to dig with your cellphone as a last ditch attempt to save your friend. That didn't work. You pull out your pocket knife but that does no good either. You sit and cry as you realize you have no shovel and your friends are dying beneath your feet. Now you get to tell the families of your dead friends that you didn't understand why you should carry your shovel on your backpack and you thought it was just to heavy, bulky, PITA and cumbersome so you carried it on your sled.
You just can't live with yourself as you could have saved both friends if you had just worn your shovel on your backpack.
Sooooooo, do you understand the argument now?
You don't necessarily need to be 2 on a hill to have the above mess. You could be having lunch in a spot that you thought was safe but the mountain top lets go and the fracture line is more than half a mile long. It wipes out you and your buddies and now you have no shovel and probe cuz it's on your buried sled.
You and 2 buddies are on a hill that has never, ever slid. Your sidehilling having fun doing your best Burandt impression, new snow, unlimited fun. Woohoo!
The said slope lets go, sweeps you off your sled and take your sled, your friends, their sleds and buries them. You survive because you swam for your life in the slide.
Your the only one around on top of the slide. Your friends are buried, somewhere. You start a search with your beacon as it is on your body. You locate one friend 3ft down and your beacon is still going off because you have 2 friends that are buried. You choose to save the first friend by digging down but you look for your sled which has your shovel and probe on it. You can't find your buried sled. No digging, no probing. Damn. You attempt to dig with your hands but the snow, as in all avalanches, is packed like concrete. You can't dig. You don't even know if your in the right spot because your probe is with your shovel on your buried sled. Your fingers are bleeding from digging, you try to dig with your handheld gps to no avail. You try to dig with your cellphone as a last ditch attempt to save your friend. That didn't work. You pull out your pocket knife but that does no good either. You sit and cry as you realize you have no shovel and your friends are dying beneath your feet. Now you get to tell the families of your dead friends that you didn't understand why you should carry your shovel on your backpack and you thought it was just to heavy, bulky, PITA and cumbersome so you carried it on your sled.
You just can't live with yourself as you could have saved both friends if you had just worn your shovel on your backpack.
Sooooooo, do you understand the argument now?
You don't necessarily need to be 2 on a hill to have the above mess. You could be having lunch in a spot that you thought was safe but the mountain top lets go and the fracture line is more than half a mile long. It wipes out you and your buddies and now you have no shovel and probe cuz it's on your buried sled.
...and I could be run over by a bus stepping off the curb, or lightening could strike me in the backcountry as I was making that big climb killing me dead...
You can make up scenarios all day long. If you do not know how to take turns on the hill and determine safe areas, NONE of the gear you bring will be of ANY help anyway. AWARENESS is 100X more importat than the gear you bring.
I have NEVER seen someone seperatd from their sled like you guys want to portrait, NEVER in over 15 years of riding. My buddy has been riding sleds in the mountains for 40 years, never seen that happen either. So I guess you can live in fear OR, pay more attention while in the backcountry. Duffy's avy classes are a GREAT way to help you learn what is probably safe and what is definetely NOT.
If you are riding somewhere where you are in constant avy danger, you should consider a different venue. Cautious is one thing but, what I am reading in this thread is lots of unnecessary paranoia.
If you are coming out west and are unfamiliar with the area you plan to ride, you should come on snowest and find a local willing to take you out. It just isn't nearly as dangerous as some of you want to suggest, and we ride some pretty serious terrain. We have NEVER had to dig anyone out, NEVER needed a beacon.
We had a guy on his first (and last) ride with our group cause the only sled induced slide I have seen in a few years. Everybody in our small group knew better. This guy thought it was funny, don't be that guy!
This was his little slide... Notice where the photo is taken from, where the rest of us were waiting, well away from the danger zone.
You can make up scenarios all day long. If you do not know how to take turns on the hill and determine safe areas, NONE of the gear you bring will be of ANY help anyway. AWARENESS is 100X more importat than the gear you bring.
I have NEVER seen someone seperatd from their sled like you guys want to portrait, NEVER in over 15 years of riding. My buddy has been riding sleds in the mountains for 40 years, never seen that happen either. So I guess you can live in fear OR, pay more attention while in the backcountry. Duffy's avy classes are a GREAT way to help you learn what is probably safe and what is definetely NOT.
If you are riding somewhere where you are in constant avy danger, you should consider a different venue. Cautious is one thing but, what I am reading in this thread is lots of unnecessary paranoia.
If you are coming out west and are unfamiliar with the area you plan to ride, you should come on snowest and find a local willing to take you out. It just isn't nearly as dangerous as some of you want to suggest, and we ride some pretty serious terrain. We have NEVER had to dig anyone out, NEVER needed a beacon.
We had a guy on his first (and last) ride with our group cause the only sled induced slide I have seen in a few years. Everybody in our small group knew better. This guy thought it was funny, don't be that guy!
This was his little slide... Notice where the photo is taken from, where the rest of us were waiting, well away from the danger zone.
...and I could be run over by a bus stepping off the curb, or lightening could strike me in the backcountry as I was making that big climb killing me dead...
You can make up scenarios all day long. If you do not know how to take turns on the hill and determine safe areas, NONE of the gear you bring will be of ANY help anyway. AWARENESS is 100X more importat than the gear you bring.
I have NEVER seen someone seperatd from their sled like you guys want to portrait, NEVER in over 15 years of riding. My buddy has been riding sleds in the mountains for 40 years, never seen that happen either. So I guess you can live in fear OR, pay more attention while in the backcountry. Duffy's avy classes are a GREAT way to help you learn what is probably safe and what is definetely NOT.
If you are riding somewhere where you are in constant avy danger, you should consider a different venue. Cautious is one thing but, what I am reading in this thread is lots of unnecessary paranoia.
If you are coming out west and are unfamiliar with the area you plan to ride, you should come on snowest and find a local willing to take you out. It just isn't nearly as dangerous as some of you want to suggest, and we ride some pretty serious terrain. We have NEVER had to dig anyone out, NEVER needed a beacon.
We had a guy on his first (and last) ride with our group cause the only sled induced slide I have seen in a few years. Everybody in our small group knew better. This guy thought it was funny, don't be that guy!
This was his little slide... Notice where the photo is taken from, where the rest of us were waiting, well away from the danger zone.
Ever wonder why there's no trees where you took that photo from?
Sleds do get buried
Well I have seen it happen, and believe me it doesn't take much
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Well I have seen it happen, and believe me it doesn't take much
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inspector01
Well-known member
Always having gear on your person (he gives specific example of 3 ppl getting sleds buried and one guy getting himself free but doesn't have shovels or probes to help his friends, and i believe lost his gloves in the avy too and couldn't change over beacon to search), but he keeps a spare shovel on the tunnel so he doesn't have to remove AVY bag to grab shovel if stuck on a hill.
I had a bad day in the mountains several years ago. Buddy was swept down a chute, out of sight. I went to auto pilot, watching him like a hawk until he went around a corner. I immediately reached for my pack, opened the shovel compartment to grab it & the probe, but it was empty. Put my hand on my chest--no beacons. Fawk. It was October, we didn't think we'd be in danger that day. I had a 10-15 second moment of silent panic (felt like days!), and I am not the type to panic, in fact that may be the only time I ever have. Thought's like, "how am I going to tell Andy (buddy's dad) and Steph (buddy's gf) that __ is dead???". Felt like puking. Rational me came back, decided we could probe with another guy in the party's ski pole if we pull the basket off--hopefully its a shallow debris pile. Putting together a plan, making sure everyone else was safe, checking for hangfire, when buddy's voice is heard faintly in the distance, "I'm OK!". Less than two minutes had elapsed (estimated) but that was 2 minutes of hell.
We made many mistakes: group dynamics, gear, terrain selection, basically the perfect storm of dumb decisions. He's alive out of luck & swimming as hard as he could. Decided that day I'd never let something like that day play out again in my presence. Lucky once, probably ain't happening again.
Gear is important. Decisions & knowledge are more important. Neither can be over looked. Slide paths can & do run bigger than you think possible from time to time. Chit happens. There's a reason the experts give the recommendations they do. They have seen things go very, very wrong, and understand keeping gear on person is a simple way to prevent one of those "if only I had..." situations from happening. Some of you might ride relatively mellow terrain, giving you few surprises. When you come up on avy debris and wonder where in the hell it came from you'll grasp the idea that you're not as all knowing as you think. You can't be right about every slope; it could be a mile away and off your radar.
Your beacon/shovel/probe is not for you, it's for your friends lives. They are your responsibility. And your life is your friends' responsibility. Take it seriously or pay. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year...
What does it for me is thinking what it's like to visit graves or imagining explaining to a victim's family why they're never coming home. Not worth being apathetic or being a tough guy.
We made many mistakes: group dynamics, gear, terrain selection, basically the perfect storm of dumb decisions. He's alive out of luck & swimming as hard as he could. Decided that day I'd never let something like that day play out again in my presence. Lucky once, probably ain't happening again.
Gear is important. Decisions & knowledge are more important. Neither can be over looked. Slide paths can & do run bigger than you think possible from time to time. Chit happens. There's a reason the experts give the recommendations they do. They have seen things go very, very wrong, and understand keeping gear on person is a simple way to prevent one of those "if only I had..." situations from happening. Some of you might ride relatively mellow terrain, giving you few surprises. When you come up on avy debris and wonder where in the hell it came from you'll grasp the idea that you're not as all knowing as you think. You can't be right about every slope; it could be a mile away and off your radar.
Your beacon/shovel/probe is not for you, it's for your friends lives. They are your responsibility. And your life is your friends' responsibility. Take it seriously or pay. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year...
What does it for me is thinking what it's like to visit graves or imagining explaining to a victim's family why they're never coming home. Not worth being apathetic or being a tough guy.
B
Bcorn
Well-known member
Everybody makes some good points in there replies, you could say keeping your Avy gear in your tunnel bag is a personal choice but in but in reality IMO it's not because if things go south and you and your buddy get caught in a slide and you pull your trigger on your pack , sled gets buried and when the dust clears and your the only one on top of the snow you have know way to help your buddy.Being from the flatlands I could be a little overboard on safety. It just makes sense to be prepared for the worst! Just my 2 cents. Don't want my first ride out west to be my last.I do agree awareness is just as or more important as the tools!
If you and your buddy are both caught in the same slide, you made a VERY bad mistake. I think there is some sense that this gear makes you safe, it doesn't, no matter how or where you carry it. If two of you are on the same sketchy slope, you made an error in judgement. That was the mistake, not whether or not you had avy gear training or how/where you carry said gear.
We each have of calculate the risks of riding for ourselves. I keep reading these claims that getting seperated from your sled happens all the time... Not from where I am standing, NEVER seen that happen in over 15 years of mtn riding. There are MUCH bigger concerns IMO. I would prefer my riding buddies bring their brains than their avy gear. Following some simple common sense rules will prevent the need for all this gear. Going out on dangerous days means I will bring more gear, most days that is completely unnecessary. If I do not feel I have the appropriate gear for the day, I adjust my riding to suit. I have entire riding areas I avoid until conditions are right. There is just so much more to it than the gear, that would be my point.
If you are not familiar with the terrain, and you question your riding buddies judgement on the hill, then you have a couple of choices, find new riding buddies or gear up. I see a bunch of you leaning towards gearing up rather than gathering the knowledge that will preclude the need for all the extra gear.
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Bcorn
Well-known member
You are correct ,knowedge Is your best tool.
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