Fighting the front ski

[DieselTwitch]

It looks like you have enough room to drill new holes with out any problems. With a lot more trail the ski will want to fallow your directions more and be less inclined to find its own path. Let us know when you've changed it and ridden it again. 20$ says you will be super happy with 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch from the back of the clamp to the edge of the spindle. If you need help understanding what Im talking about I can mark up on my photo where you need to take the measurement.

 

[Timbersled]

please see the instructions

You need to look at the current instructions we have available on our website.

http://www.timbersled.com/docs/ST & LT Instructions.pdf

It will show you how to correctly position your spindle for proper handling.

please call us at Timbersled if you have any questions

Dave @ Timbersled
208-255-5644

 

[h2orider]

Thanks for the help and advice.
I had my friend come over who has a similar setup as I do on a KTM.
He seems to think by moving it back it will actually put me even more on the top of the ski.
Maybe a simple drawing would help.
He says he rides a bit heavy too and that's just KTMs but I can't believe they are that heavy to ride all the time otherwise you would have to be Popeye to ride it and everyone would give up.
Thanks again.

 

[DieselTwitch]

Thanks for the help and advice.
I had my friend come over who has a similar setup as I do on a KTM.
He seems to think by moving it back it will actually put me even more on the top of the ski.
Maybe a simple drawing would help.
He says he rides a bit heavy too and that's just KTMs but I can't believe they are that heavy to ride all the time otherwise you would have to be Popeye to ride it and everyone would give up.
Thanks again.

Hes wrong, simple as that. By putting the pressure point (also the pivot point) of the ski behind the axis of steer. A line drawn to the ground through your fork tubes, a better way to think about it is if you think of your forks as pointing to the ground then then the pivot of the ski needs to behind it. This will keep the skis more or less fallowing the bike and increase your stability. Its works the same way as caster in a car or truck makes it more stable on the road. right now your bike is trying to pass your ski.

This isn't a ski but it might help explain it.

Here in a minute I'll upload a photo of what to measure.

 

[DieselTwitch]

 

[DieselTwitch]

actually i was wrong. the axis of steer is through you triple tree head bolt to the ground. it will be an inch or so behind the forks all the way to the ground.

 

[DieselTwitch]

this is a better photo to describe it

More trail = more stability.

However, too much trail can make for a hard to turn bike.

 

[snowbikekits.com]

Dave's instructions are correct - you need to drill new holes. The spindle's ski pivot bolt should be behind the axle. Also - I would remove the metal on the outside of your ski and get the new dual track runner. Does you ski have the taller center keel?

One other thing that I noticed really seems to affect the trail manners is the front suspension's setup - soft fork springs seem to attribute to poor trail handle and steering characteristics in general from what I have experienced.

You are riding a KTM - which one?

One other thing is that anyone that does not have the cross haft shown in the photo, I would consider it. I was riding with a buddy and he hit a rock that total his ski spindle - not sure if it would have helped, but I'd like to think it would have. They are $10.

 

[WASnowBiker]

Swap your springs

I'm certainly not the leading expert on this site, but in addition to the leading/trailing ski issue, we should have asked if you already fixed the notoriously soft KTM springs? I've owned 3 various KTMs and all come way under sprung. Add a MH kit to stock forks and you'll be diving and plowing with the suspension half compressed before you even hit a hole - it makes for terrible handling.
If you haven't already, swap your springs for the stiffest you can get and play with your rebound if you have WP forks. It makes a massive difference and will keep you riding up on the forks and also helps prevent bottoming into the clamps.

 

[DieselTwitch]

I'm certainly not the leading expert on this site, but in addition to the leading/trailing ski issue, we should have asked if you already fixed the notoriously soft KTM springs? I've owned 3 various KTMs and all come way under sprung. Add a MH kit to stock forks and you'll be diving and plowing with the suspension half compressed before you even hit a hole - it makes for terrible handling.
If you haven't already, swap your springs for the stiffest you can get and play with your rebound if you have WP forks. It makes a massive difference and will keep you riding up on the forks and also helps prevent bottoming into the clamps.

I keep hearing this, my dealer told me to crank up the preload. It then Felt too pokie. Like it would stab the ski under when It should have just ridden up and over. Now I'm running the stock springs and all the setting in "sport" as spec'd in the manual. And she handles great! I kind of like the plush feeling in the trees. I may swap to the heavier springs but so far I haven't had a problem. If it bottoms out more you can crank up the compression to help stop bottoming out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[WASnowBiker]

Spring rate matters A LOT

Of this I am 100% sure, having tried for years on my dirt bikes and now TS, you cannot fix an under sprung bike with preload and compression alone. You can make the stroke feel different, and preload helps a little, but nothing fixes it like new springs that hold the weight up. Cheap fix, big return. I've found it even more important on TS because the track suspension does not compress anything close to a wheel/swingarm travel so the front forks take way more load. The more they compress the more your steering angle is affected.

I have other things to do with my life so the required -each bike has same/different problems - it is a bit frustrating, but as long as the fun factor remains worth it.

Also, while I'm rambling on this handling topic - I rode a buddy's new kit this weekend with both the new dual skag and flex arm. WOW, HUGE DIFFERENCE so now I gotta pay even more money to make this thing ride like it should. But at least they're making progress on the design. It's also a testament that seemingly small tweaks - not just springs - seriously affect handling.

Happy Trails

 

[DieselTwitch]

Of this I am 100% sure, having tried for years on my dirt bikes and now TS, you cannot fix an under sprung bike with preload and compression alone. You can make the stroke feel different, and preload helps a little, but nothing fixes it like new springs that hold the weight up. Cheap fix, big return. I've found it even more important on TS because the track suspension does not compress anything close to a wheel/swingarm travel so the front forks take way more load. The more they compress the more your steering angle is affected.

I have other things to do with my life so the required -each bike has same/different problems - it is a bit frustrating, but as long as the fun factor remains worth it.

Also, while I'm rambling on this handling topic - I rode a buddy's new kit this weekend with both the new dual skag and flex arm. WOW, HUGE DIFFERENCE so now I gotta pay even more money to make this thing ride like it should. But at least they're making progress on the design. It's also a testament that seemingly small tweaks - not just springs - seriously affect handling.

Happy Trails

what kit are you running? and what do you mean flexarm? do you mean the mtn tamer slider on the rear arm?

Edit, Nevermind, I never rode any other year than the new one. so the changes are as big in my mind as they may be in yours.

I think ill be ordering new springs this week to see if it really helps. they are easy to change on the WP forks so why not.

 

[snowbikekits.com]

That's good DT - I just noticed your bike is the same as my buddys - '12 500 XC-W. I think you will notice a difference. Going from a 450 SXF to the 500 XCW I noticed a big difference.

 

[Mtn. Muncher]

View attachment 224711

One thing I will point out that no won has mentioned it that he is not running a Timbersled ski. He is running an old Simmons Gen-2 ski with metal runners or some other thing bolted to the bottom with no skags bolted on the original keel location. For handling that is one of the worst ski combination out there. Simply by putting a new TS Backcountry ski on will fix 99% of your problems.

 

[yukondood]

I agree with mtn muncher. I ran an old simmons II wight those crazy angle irons and centre keel and it was ridiculous. Buy the new ski!!!!

 

[DieselTwitch]

I agree with mtn muncher. I ran an old simmons II wight those crazy angle irons and centre keel and it was ridiculous. Buy the new ski!!!!

I agree that the new ski will help. However, the dynamics and physics of his setup are whats causing him so many problems not only on the trail but also in the deep stuff.

 

[dhdey]

i dont think how he mounted it is the problem. mine is almost identical to his and i dont have the same problems. i think its the ski. with the ski mounted a bit further forward the trail manners are a little worse but the off trail preformance improves. better float and less likely to dive

 

[DieselTwitch]

i dont think how he mounted it is the problem. mine is almost identical to his and i dont have the same problems. i think its the ski. with the ski mounted a bit further forward the trail manners are a little worse but the off trail preformance improves. better float and less likely to dive

Can you post a photo of your spildle with a tape measure showing your setting? I highly doubt you could ride it that far forward with out fighting it. Having if forward does help but having it too far forward makes it act like its pushing and will make controlling it very hard... just like the op is having.

Quoted right out of the install manual: "this will determine how much trailing the ski will have in relation to the axle bolt. For better understanding, the farther back the ski is located the better trail ride quality it will have and the farther forward it is, the better off trail handling it will have. It is important that you stay within the given 1/4” measurement."

 

[Hawkster]

I run the gen II on mine and there's no denying it's as slippery as an eel , face plants when least expected , it's only good for the deep nothing else . The reason why I've stuck with it is that it virtually has no resistance . T/S new ski has all the traction you need plus some . One of the things that I haven't seen discussed is that one of the things the T/S also doe is that the ski actually assists itself in floating , meaning with the outside heels being so deep that it funnels the snow under the ski helping it lift . What caught my eye was the track it leaves behind the ski , it leaves a different form that does not resemble the ski design .

One other thing the Gen II is a bit longer on the back side than the T/S which makes a noticeable difference in feed back threw the bars. The rake on the forks was not designed for such a foot print and T/S is figuring that out .

 

[teal_210]

Can you post a photo of your spildle with a tape measure showing your setting? I highly doubt you could ride it that far forward with out fighting it. Having if forward does help but having it too far forward makes it act like its pushing and will make controlling it very hard... just like the op is having.

Quoted right out of the install manual: "this will determine how much trailing the ski will have in relation to the axle bolt. For better understanding, the farther back the ski is located the better trail ride quality it will have and the farther forward it is, the better off trail handling it will have. It is important that you stay within the given 1/4” measurement."

I've ridden many kits with the ski that far forward and they handle okay (I actually preferred it that way), as someone already mentioned it's not quite as good on the trail but it's better off-trail.

Like Allen said, his problem is the ski, not the mounting. Those modified Gen2 ski's are horrible, you're better off with a 6" wide one if you can't afford the new 10" one.