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Explorer kit owners beware!

"I'm an engineering student so some of the mechanical concepts make a whole lot more sense to me than many of you, I'm sure. "

If you are such a brilliant engineering student, why did it take you two forks to notice the inherent weakness of the design and finally improve on it? Listen, you don't know who any of us are here so don't assume we are a bunch of idiots. Your engineering degree that you have not received yet may pale in comparison to what some of us do.

It sucks about your forks and it sounds like there is room for improvement, my suggestion is to find a Snowhawk it out performs both hands down no contest.


I had a feeling someone would take that statement to the extreme. I said "many" not "all" or even "most" of you. ;) I know that many people are not mechanically minded and don't know how to work on their own equipment, so I don't expect them to understand the forces involved in designing a power sports machine. That statement is for those people. If you know your stuff, great, that statement is NOT intended for YOU. :) I was not intending to slam anyone.

It didn't take me two forks to find the weakness. Just ask Mike. I was trying to get AD B to make me larger dowels right after the first time. They said [paraphrasing] "oh the bolts weren't torqued properly" and sent me the same parts. That was a viable possibility, though I thought unlikely, so I put them back on and ended up breaking it again. Turns out (like I thought) it wasn't the torque of the bolts that was at fault.

I wish I could afford a snow hawk, I would prefer to have one of those hands down. :(

As for the set up DefBoy, the bike is set up for my summer riding with my weight, riding style etc. I had to put on a heavier rear spring after getting the bike but the fork springs were OK (per the Race Tech website). Either way, unless I get a bunch of ice built up all over the bike I'm not changing the sprung weight (the bike came right out of the garage at the time of the second failure). The ski's weight may be different than the wheel but that change shouldn't affect how easily the front end bottoms. It would affect the handling in high speed situations, but I'm not worried about that as my problems have been low speed impacts that eat up the travel. The point I was getting at though is that the kit is sold as a plug-and-play operation. The literature says that there are no modifications necessary to the bike so I SHOULDN'T have to buy extra parts and change my fork setting all around. I'm riding the same terrain I do in the summer.

Super moto to enduro would require different suspension for someone serious, but you could throw super moto wheels on an enduro and have a blast even though you're sitting up higher. Enduro to the snow isn't that big of a change. If anything the snow is less demanding as you don't have all the roots, square rocks etc, not to mention that when the suspension fluid gets colder it tends to be more viscous anyway.

As for the high speed summer hack, those older Yamaha's are notorious for that in stock form. They can get better with professional revalving, but for the cost to to it I can deal with the hack as it's not THAT bad, just annoying. They work great until you start running 60+ mph over washboard terrain, then you start feeling it through the bars.

I picked up replacement forks off eBay. I can get the pair cheaper than the approximate $230 that Yamaha wants for the lower fork tube alone. :rolleyes:
 
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I see your point about the weight; but consider this the tire and rim soak up some of the stress of impact and help lessen the affect to the fork.
I do have a question though; does or did your fork bottom out?

And if so how many times do you think this had happened?
 
What are you asking about the fork bottoming? It bottomed out when the fork broke, but it doesn't bottom out on a regular basis in the snow.

I have it set up for woods riding, not motocross so it will bottom out easier than motocross forks, but that would be expected. I do bottom them out on occasion dropping off ledges or getting air off berms/hills etc on trails in the summer. 98% of the riding I do in the summer doesn't bottom out hard enough for me to tell, not saying it doesn't, but I can't feel if it does.

Does that answer your question?
 
Ya" it does answer my question.
It bottomed out when the fork broke
And your forks should not bottom out period.(set up is to soft)

And it is not an issue of motorcross verses woods /trail riding.

your forks every time they bottom out cause damage.

And all i was pointing out from my origional responce is that the forks are contrubiting to the problem.

I will bet that even Mikes bike are bottoming out too.

Once again I am not here to give you a hard time.

Just pointing out a flaw on both sides of this issue.

To see if you bottom out more than you think put a large O ring on the lower tube and you will see then how much travel you use.(old guy trick i learned the hard way)
 
No worries on the hard time thing...I can see where you're coming from.

I remember reading an article in Dirt Bike magazine a while back though that said if the suspension is set up right, you WILL bottom out on largest hits that you will normally encounter. The idea being that if it's tuned properly, for 95% of the riding you are using as much of the travel as possible for the normal stuff you're riding over. If the suspension is set up so stiff that it NEVER bottoms, the forks won't compress on the small stuff, transferring most of the energy to the bike/rider.

You don't cause damage every time you bottom out one end or the other as there are dampers built in to keep from doing just that. About any review of a dirt bike you see in the magazines will talk about the bottoming characteristics, good or bad. The good being that you don't feel it as much when it bottoms.

That's the point of view I've always taken, and it seems logical to me. No offense, but setting up the suspension so it NEVER bottoms out seems ridiculous. Might as well not have any suspension at all for 95% of the riding. :beer;
 
I think you are mistaken on the article and the point being made.

Your forks should only bottom in extreme cases (largest hits)/your words/ and the place where you broke your fork is a large hit???

I can run over rocks the size of bowling balls on my 450x at speed and it is still plush on slow and technical terrain. (not stiff)
And it doesn’t bottom out on large drop offs (IE like a large wash out in Baja)

You don't cause damage every time you bottom out one end or the other as there are dampers built in to keep from doing just that. About any review of a dirt bike you see in the magazines will talk about the bottoming characteristics, good or bad. The good being that you don't feel it as much when it bottoms.”
On a motocross track your momentum is grater and is moving forward on the throttle. The more you are on the gas when landing the softer the landing.
The physics are different and don’t really aply here.
So any comparison to moto forks is not relitive

And the articles are almost exclusively about motocross bikes and there specific purpose.



I am not sure why you hear stiffer when I mean properly set up. Larger springs are not necessarily stiffer to the feel of the rider; but as I stated holding you higher in the stroke thus being in the plush part of the stroke to begin with rather than being half way thru the stroke where it is harsh/stiffer.

And bottoming will affect the shim stacks affecting flow and the hydraulic dampening they were designed for as well as high and low speed dampeners.

Even Race Tech will confirm this if you were to ask them.

You know it is just a valid point of view and should be considered not thrown away because you dont like it.

If Jason Raines (GNCC (woods racing not motorcros)Yamaha factory rider from Washington having his suspension done here in washingtin by a local guy(Dirt Works) can get the plush with out bottoming I am sure yours could be set up as well) That is with readily avalible parts not super unattainable factory parts. His choice rather than using factory Yamaha guys

And yes I and my freinds have ridden and trained with him before he turned pro and after the season when he comes home to Bremerton,WA
 
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I think you are mistaken on the article and the point being made.

Your forks should only bottom in extreme cases (largest hits)/your words/ and the place where you broke your fork is a large hit???

I can run over rocks the size of bowling balls on my 450x at speed and it is still plush on slow and technical terrain. (not stiff)
And it doesn’t bottom out on large drop offs (IE like a large wash out in Baja)


On a motocross track your momentum is grater and is moving forward on the throttle. The more you are on the gas when landing the softer the landing.
The physics are different and don’t really aply here.
So any comparison to moto forks is not relitive

And the articles are almost exclusively about motocross bikes and there specific purpose.



I am not sure why you hear stiffer when I mean properly set up. Larger springs are not necessarily stiffer to the feel of the rider; but as I stated holding you higher in the stroke thus being in the plush part of the stroke to begin with rather than being half way thru the stroke where it is harsh/stiffer.

And bottoming will affect the shim stacks affecting flow and the hydraulic dampening they were designed for as well as high and low speed dampeners.

Even Race Tech will confirm this if you were to ask them.

You know it is just a valid point of view and should be considered not thrown away because you dont like it.

If Jason Raines (GNCC (woods racing not motorcros)Yamaha factory rider from Washington having his suspension done here in washingtin by a local guy(Dirt Works) can get the plush with out bottoming I am sure yours could be set up as well) That is with readily avalible parts not super unattainable factory parts. His choice rather than using factory Yamaha guys

And yes I and my freinds have ridden and trained with him before he turned pro and after the season when he comes home to Bremerton,WA

thats not what Factory Connection say, i had my forks re-valved for woods and rocky terrain, (enduro riding) they put larger bump stops in the bottom of the fork for occasional bottoming. if you get occasional bottoming you know that you are getting full travel on the forks, which is what is needed for enduro riding. and i have to say i agree, at 1st i didn't like the fact that they bottomed out so i put stiffer springs in and more oil, no more bottoming, great over big hits, terrible over rocks and obstacle's.
i can't believe you are comparing a factory bike to a wkend worrior, LOL, have a little think about what it is you are exactly trying to say, and remember not all of us have a suspension Tech in our back pocket available to pull out and set our suspension every time we go riding. :D
 
not here to fight....

but check with a local suspension guy to set up your bike.... its not a ton of money and will make the bike a way better ride. i have a 250x that was way too mushy and sat to low in the travel. i wanted a super plush woods bike that still wouldnt bottom...result, stiffer springs. bike now rides higher in the softer part of the stroke and with stiffer springs will resist hard bottoming. still will bottom occasionally, but rarely.a good suspension guru can make it better for not a ton of money.....your bike can still be plush and not bottom over a 3 foot snowbank even with a flat landing, unless you were in a big endo with the weight of the explorer behind it....
 
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Amen buffalo: that is all I wanted to bring into the discussion.

The jump in the picture is not a Large hit and unless you were to sail a huge distance and land in the flat on a solid packed ice surface I still could not see it bottoming. I am talkin huge air time

I also was not referring to a factory bike but rather to a factory rider (local boy done good) and another local guy that did his suspension Not the Factory.

Most if not all the GNCC bikes are off the shelf just like the ones you and I can by; and yes they get factory support; but once again they are set up for the type of race they are at.
It is not like or even close to the support the motocross guys get.
Heck the guys that race Baja there bikes are not that modified to race there either(but it would be nice to be able to thrash a new bike every couple of weeks__on the factories tab).

Im done.;):beer;:beer;:beer;
 
Mainly WORX style out here in the west and Baja
Being from Florida the Alligator Enduro was a hoot; but you guys up there have a nasty course.
Here we have a couple of races that come close but not like Unadilla.

Are you going to the Hawk fest?
 
no hawk fest, not in the budget this year.we raced florida and georgia gncc 08, never do florida again! that sand is brutally rough(even with correct suspension set up)haha. georgia was awesome, great track tons of fun! worcs look like fun but really fast stuff, i like the tighter woods stuff.i could do without all the rocks and mud that dilla presents, but its a great event and atmosphere. brings out some big names! maybe next year for hawk fest..i hear it gonna be on the east for 2010.................
 
That would be sweet for you guys out there.
I do miss the east coast i dont go back as much as i would like.:)

Ya i agree about the sand by it self and now add a tree or two to the mix and ouch:eek:

Georgia red mud was funn?? snotty stuff
You would like the riding here in washington /they have it all around here sand rocks trees desert mountains open and tight. what ever you like and only a couple of hours in each direction if that long:clock:
 
well addict and hawk gal....start planning the 2010 hawkfest. East of the missiissisisppiiie. michigan, ny, vt.? hawkfest gncc style! rocks and mud, no powder to get stuck in or avalanches to worry about...haha sounds fun for some of us anyways!
 
LOL, i like what you did there, you must be in training to be a politician!!
and no i didn't miss that you said something nice, its just when its followed by 3 things that are not, i start to wounder. :rolleyes:
constructive criticism is good, but blatant bashing is NAFF

Dude, he works for 2moto. what do u expect? same for mike and the explorer. put urself in their shoes, of course they're going to talk good about their product compared to the other one. it's because they're proud of their product and they like it more than the competitions. when ur proud of something and trying to sell it, then any statement about the two products can sound like bashing of one. I think both bret and mike have been really responsible with their posts, especially given the fine line they have to walk. it's not easy. and you can't take anything to personal. at the end of the day you like whatever you like for whatever reasons. I think they should be able to say whatever opinions they have, as long as they're not childish taunting or malicious. and i think a little friendly rivalry among the customers of the 2 products isn't too bad, as long as it's all in good fun and doesn't get out of hand. like the yamaha vs. kawasaki vs. honda vs. whatever for example.
 
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