I also said that because they had only listed two modifications at that time which were lower temp light and hotter hand grips which isnt a very good deal for $400. They then edited their post, and I asked further questions to a then edited post again! So obvioously I had made some valid questions or concerns or the need of editing wouldnt be necessary. Do they have a cool product or idea, yes they do. I have seen what they can do for the cats and they are headed in the right direction but I was replying to what I thought wasnt a very good deal, im sorry I will play nice and keep my opinion to myself. And yes, I think you do have blinders when it comes to MPI and what they offer. And thanks for editing your signature.
EVOLUTION POWERSPORTS & MPI introduce Yamaha Nytro ECU Reprogramming
- Thread starter Evolution Powersports
- Start date
P
pylon
Well-known member
I would love to see this on a sled in Revelstoke . Try before you buy for me with fuel systems now . Heard " THIS IS THE TICKET " way too many times now . Rode a new cat with this though and was quite impressed compared to the boondocker box . Let us know when you have a test sled on the snow !
In my opinion this is not comparable with what Evo offer to 1100T.
Yamaha ECU does not sense boost, so you still need an piggyback to get it to work, hence all problems with the piggyback still exist.
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
I edited the posts because when I saw your questions it was obvious that I was not clear with respect to what the flashes do and how they work.
Regarding the safety flash - I will explain it backwards. The timing protection maps are engaged a lower temperature which turns the water temp light on. The reason this flash came to be is we burned up a Nytro in marginal snow conditions by being on boost when the temp light came on. The factory programmers did not anticipate the proliferation of forced induction kits that would be applied to their engines or did not recognize that this margin of safety would be reduced to near zero with additional power. Ironically the Arctic Cat 1100T is the same way - the motor can only be killed by water temperatures - again because there is no margin. The cost to rebuild a Nytro motor that has failed this way is easily over $1500. If you don't think this is worth the peace of mind knowing that will now have some margin in case you run into low snow conditions or punch a hole in a heat exchanger, then good luck. With respect to $100.00 (or $79 with another flash) to fix your very good and perfectly capable handwarmers - once again, good luck. I spent about $400.00 to fix my apex handwarmers after buying a used set of handlebars and buying the electronic fix offered by someone on TY 5 years ago.
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
I believe MCX uses a piggyback.
This flash is only for sleds that are producing more hp than the stock injectors can supply fuel for - in other words, big turbo/big super sleds. This flash is not for low boost sleds. If you are looking to upgrade your low boost sled, this is a very good solution because if the rest of your system is upgradeable and your fueling is inadequate, this will allow you to raise your boost and be able to supply the fuel without changing to a different piggyback, standalone, etc. You still must use your current piggyback. If you have a turbo system that you can't dial in because of the complexity of controlling a 4th injector, this is a solution for you rather than going to a standalone system which will be infinitely harder to tune properly for the average rider. There are other systems out there that are more costly than this which do the same thing.
Yes MPI has a standalone, the same as the impulse system. i have one on my sled and it works well but has some areas that can be improved. With the standalone you have to add another wireing harness as well as a second ECU. With this you dont need any of that and can simple use the GEMS for boost only. before the GEMS was trying to do more that the processor would allow it to do. from what i have learned this upgrade will run much better than the standalone and the GEMS will simply run the boost. this is much cheeper and simpler than the standalone and should work muh better as we it will be using yamaha systems and we all know how well thay work! cant wait to get my ECU and injectors back this week!
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
There are a few test sleds on the snow. We will see what we can do about getting one to BC this season...
MPI issued a service bulliten, have done nothing to address it though. Still selling them......
T
TurboM700
Well-known member
What did this sled have for a cooling system on it. Was the radiator removed?
I have rode my sled on very marginal snow (thanks MN winters) and my coolant temp stays right around 180. But I also have the radiator.
I personal wouldn't mint this flash and the timing flash but I'm not ready to shell out 500 bucks on till there is some positive feedback on the improvements.
Mike
Mike
What do you consider big turbo/big supercharge?
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
Something that exceeds the capability of the stock injectors.
So are you doing this via sending in the factory ECU for reprogram? The Alpha-N technology of the stock ecu is about as smart as a chalkboard eraser, primarilly operating via throttle position and rpm, offset slightly via manifold vaccuum (not pressure) and coolant temp (barely)?
With all due respect, just pulling timing across the board isn't a good idea for a boosted motor, when there's no boost reference signal or MAP sensor to the ECU. It's not very often that two boosted systems are identical, in identical conditions, so how does it adjust for what the engine actually NEEDS, or how/can it be tuned differently for a .5bar boosted system (7.2psi) or a 1bar (14.5 psi) boosten system, or is it a fixed adjustement across the board for any system? Something is better than nothing, I'll give you that, but if pay for this, can it be done differently for either of my boosted sleds with different boost levels?
I've seen it posted that you've made it rpm/load based? How? The stock ecu has no provisions for a positive value MAP sensor, and simply adding a positive value MAP sensor puts it's reading beyong the OEM calibration range, in which it has no idea what to do with such sensor values? Is your system an actual re-flash of the stock ECU, or a slight of hand, plug and play harness to fool certiain input values? Unless you've decoded the Mitsubishi ECU operating language, I'm not seeing how you only change the few things you do, when if you have developed software to actually re-tune the ecu, why not go further with with the other parameters that Yamaha doesn't use within it? I'm sure you've figured out (not saying why) that it's not the only thing that ECU is used on? Doesn't sound to me that it's a software based change, but rather more like a "resistor" based modification for the affected sensor inputs? Either way is completely your perogitave, and while marginally effective, you may consider being more transparent with your methodology as there are may of us that understand this technology very well. If it is in fact a re-flash, it would be nice to know the difficulties of reversing the modification if the need should arise, or if this is a permanent modification, unlike a piggyback controller whch can simply be unplugged?
Running a boost referenced piggyback can control fuel requirements, but having timing and fuel controlled by different "boxes" is a recipe for complications since one hand doesn't know what thte other is doing, and neither knows what it really should be doing. I do work with boosed engines and ecu programming for a living, and again, with all due respect, I'm more than a little bit "fuzzy" on the loic and excecution of this system, and for the justification of customer cost?
While I know you've been working very hard on it, and I have to praise the efforts you've made, I'm only touching on what I think is a logical and technical topic to justify the price you are asking, when this is something that still must be used in conjunction with a fuel tuner, only retards timing via rpm (load based isn't possible without additional components, and the OEM ecu wouldn't recognize them anyway) and isn't something that can be removed easilly if the user needs to in an emergency?
Please describe in somewhat greater detail what this entails, and what will make us spend hundreds of dollars on it?
With all due respect, just pulling timing across the board isn't a good idea for a boosted motor, when there's no boost reference signal or MAP sensor to the ECU. It's not very often that two boosted systems are identical, in identical conditions, so how does it adjust for what the engine actually NEEDS, or how/can it be tuned differently for a .5bar boosted system (7.2psi) or a 1bar (14.5 psi) boosten system, or is it a fixed adjustement across the board for any system? Something is better than nothing, I'll give you that, but if pay for this, can it be done differently for either of my boosted sleds with different boost levels?
I've seen it posted that you've made it rpm/load based? How? The stock ecu has no provisions for a positive value MAP sensor, and simply adding a positive value MAP sensor puts it's reading beyong the OEM calibration range, in which it has no idea what to do with such sensor values? Is your system an actual re-flash of the stock ECU, or a slight of hand, plug and play harness to fool certiain input values? Unless you've decoded the Mitsubishi ECU operating language, I'm not seeing how you only change the few things you do, when if you have developed software to actually re-tune the ecu, why not go further with with the other parameters that Yamaha doesn't use within it? I'm sure you've figured out (not saying why) that it's not the only thing that ECU is used on? Doesn't sound to me that it's a software based change, but rather more like a "resistor" based modification for the affected sensor inputs? Either way is completely your perogitave, and while marginally effective, you may consider being more transparent with your methodology as there are may of us that understand this technology very well. If it is in fact a re-flash, it would be nice to know the difficulties of reversing the modification if the need should arise, or if this is a permanent modification, unlike a piggyback controller whch can simply be unplugged?
Running a boost referenced piggyback can control fuel requirements, but having timing and fuel controlled by different "boxes" is a recipe for complications since one hand doesn't know what thte other is doing, and neither knows what it really should be doing. I do work with boosed engines and ecu programming for a living, and again, with all due respect, I'm more than a little bit "fuzzy" on the loic and excecution of this system, and for the justification of customer cost?
While I know you've been working very hard on it, and I have to praise the efforts you've made, I'm only touching on what I think is a logical and technical topic to justify the price you are asking, when this is something that still must be used in conjunction with a fuel tuner, only retards timing via rpm (load based isn't possible without additional components, and the OEM ecu wouldn't recognize them anyway) and isn't something that can be removed easilly if the user needs to in an emergency?
Please describe in somewhat greater detail what this entails, and what will make us spend hundreds of dollars on it?
Last edited by a moderator:
E
Evo1
Active member
Thank you for your post and bringing up some valid points. I am one of the ECU programmers at Evolution Powersports as well as Evolution MotorSports (evoms.com) and Intelligent Tuning (evomsit.com). What we are offering here is an ECU REFLASH. There are no resistors or external signal modifying devices, etc. This is a TRUE reprogram of the internal Mitsubishi ECU memory which can be flashed back to stock at any time if needed.
<O
The ECU does have input from the throttle position, MAP sensor which does in fact read positive pressure (irrelevant for this topic) speed sensor, coolant temp, etc. The "theoretical load" is based off of throttle position, speed and RPM. When we program the ECU for a boosted application, we are not "just pulling timing across the board" as you mention. The timing is reduced based on a theoretical boost level based on RPM and "load". With the increased boost and RPM, the timing is tapered so the most timing is reduced in the higher RPM, higher "load" areas and less in the lower "load" areas and lower RPMS. <O
</O<O
</OThere are other items in our software that we modify as well that are mentioned. Rescaling the water temp table to activate the timing retard safety routine sooner is a huge benefit on a boosted sled. Additionally, scaling larger injectors to operate like the stock ones is another feature we chose to include in our development. There are features that we recalibrated as well to eliminate some of the drivability issues and stumbles that can be experienced on a boosted sled with the OEM calibration. <O
</O<O
</OWhat we have developed in this ECU is no different than what we do when we tune a normally aspirated ECU such as a BMW MS52 from an E46 M3 when we add a turbo or supercharger system. We convert to an alpha-N setup and program for larger injectors, reduced ignition timing, etc. Yes, there are limitations in this Mitsubishi ECU that are not 100% ideal however what we have accomplished with our software calibration does make the engine run more optimal, safer and eliminates some of the drivability issues that are inherent to a boosted nytro.
<O
</O<O
</OI hope this clarifies some of the questions raised without getting into a pissing match about what we know about this ECU, tuning principals as well as "terminology" that is used. Ideally, custom tuning every sled would be great but not realistic. We feel that what we have developed will work for 90% of the mild to mid power boosted sleds out there and those that want custom tuning and are willing to pay for it, we are more than willing to provide this service.
<O</OFor some of the Yamaha guys that don't know Evolution Powersports background with Arctic Cat or the car world I will through in a reference for them. In car world these guys are a premier player for tuning. Their HUGE advantage in cars and now sleds is their programing skills. Evolution MOTORSPORTS and evomsit.com have built a stellar reputation in large part tuning Porsche turbocharged STREET cars. I have raced at a pretty high level and can tell you that race cars($200,000-$750,000 racecars) are vastly simpler to do than high horsepower street cars. Street cars need to run well at all elevations, temperatures, speeds, loads etc. Cracking the factory codes and getting a tune on a 3.6L engine making 750HP that will never fail to start and have great daily drivability but also live through an owners 10 minute full throttle blast across the Mojave desert in 100 degree heat is no small undertaking. It is very hard for the Evo guys to thump their chest and say "trust us guys, we have the Yamaha ECU covered" without sounding arrogant. So I will do it for them.The beauty of the AC 1100T tunes they do is that all of the engine protection and compensation features are not only enabled but enhanced. There is not enough money in snowmobiling for a company to acquire the skill and knowledge the Evo guys have. The billet compressor designs in the Super Chute turbo come from years of building turbos for cars. Who in sled world has $100,000s to invest in design and research of turbo wheels? Google Evolution Motorsports and evomsit.com and see what these guys are capable of. These guys are NOT doing sled stuff too make a bunch of money. They are doing it because they love snowmobiles and enjoy the challenge.
L
Linc
Active member
Thank you for your post and bringing up some valid points. I am one of the ECU programmers at Evolution Powersports as well as Evolution MotorSports (evoms.com) and Intelligent Tuning (evomsit.com). What we are offering here is an ECU REFLASH. There are no resistors or external signal modifying devices, etc. This is a TRUE reprogram of the internal Mitsubishi ECU memory which can be flashed back to stock at any time if needed.
<O
The ECU does have input from the throttle position, MAP sensor which does in fact read positive pressure (irrelevant for this topic) speed sensor, coolant temp, etc. The "theoretical load" is based off of throttle position, speed and RPM. When we program the ECU for a boosted application, we are not "just pulling timing across the board" as you mention. The timing is reduced based on a theoretical boost level based on RPM and "load". With the increased boost and RPM, the timing is tapered so the most timing is reduced in the higher RPM, higher "load" areas and less in the lower "load" areas and lower RPMS. <O
<O
There are other items in our software that we modify as well that are mentioned. Rescaling the water temp table to activate the timing retard safety routine sooner is a huge benefit on a boosted sled. Additionally, scaling larger injectors to operate like the stock ones is another feature we chose to include in our development. There are features that we recalibrated as well to eliminate some of the drivability issues and stumbles that can be experienced on a boosted sled with the OEM calibration. <O
<O
What we have developed in this ECU is no different than what we do when we tune a normally aspirated ECU such as a BMW MS52 from an E46 M3 when we add a turbo or supercharger system. We convert to an alpha-N setup and program for larger injectors, reduced ignition timing, etc. Yes, there are limitations in this Mitsubishi ECU that are not 100% ideal however what we have accomplished with our software calibration does make the engine run more optimal, safer and eliminates some of the drivability issues that are inherent to a boosted nytro.
<O
<O
I hope this clarifies some of the questions raised without getting into a pissing match about what we know about this ECU, tuning principals as well as "terminology" that is used. Ideally, custom tuning every sled would be great but not realistic. We feel that what we have developed will work for 90% of the mild to mid power boosted sleds out there and those that want custom tuning and are willing to pay for it, we are more than willing to provide this service.
Wow… Finally someone has figured out what makes these things tick, and how to make them tock, or talk, whichever. I've always maintained that unless you can make the the ECU understand what the engine needs and compensate for it, everything else is stopgap. I'm certain that the stock ECU can't accommodate a closed loops system, but that would rule the snow if it could. It drives me nuts when the Nytro or even the APEX has that little stumble just before it comes on, now it been explained… thanks.
B
BigFish BC
Well-known member
some cool stuff,seems a bit pricy but its for sleds so it will always be big$ think you would do better priced a little diff
.did not see anywhere on how the programing will be done,will it be just send it in & wait or can you do swaps with another ecu.
.did not see anywhere on how the programing will be done,will it be just send it in & wait or can you do swaps with another ecu.
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
some cool stuff,seems a bit pricy but its for sleds so it will always be big$ think you would do better priced a little diff
There are two locations that have the capability to do the flash:
Evolution Powersports
30960 Hummingbird Lane
Steamboat Springs, CO 80487
970-680-EVO1 (3861) Please call before shipping.
Mountain Performance (MPI)
12379 So. 265 W, Unit B
Draper, UTAH 84020
(888) 649-4609
evo
I had a chance to ride with the EVO guys while they were in IP on New Years day, I have a Big Chute on my 1100T and wanted to ride with them in case I had any tunning questions.
They were on a couple of Super Chute 1100Ts and there was 1 Yamaha Nytro with a MPI super charger they said they had done some tunning on.
All the sleds ran flawless, no bobbles, no hesitations, no miss fires, just spot on! The super charged Yamaha had a loud exhaust on it and when we were waiting for some of the other riders, you could hear it run. It never missed a beat, very crisp, clean, the sled was making good power. I was really impressed with this one because its the best running super charged Nytro I have ever been around.
I have rode my Big Chute 1100T from 4500 ft in the field to 9,500 ft climbing a 900 ft 45 degree or steeper slope with the same experiance ( it runs spot on every pull). In and out of the throttle doing technical manauvers in deep powder doesnt matter it just runs and pulls hard.
I guess my point is these guys are on their game and I think we have only seen a small part of their expertise, Ill bet there is much more to come.
Kevin
I had a chance to ride with the EVO guys while they were in IP on New Years day, I have a Big Chute on my 1100T and wanted to ride with them in case I had any tunning questions.
They were on a couple of Super Chute 1100Ts and there was 1 Yamaha Nytro with a MPI super charger they said they had done some tunning on.
All the sleds ran flawless, no bobbles, no hesitations, no miss fires, just spot on! The super charged Yamaha had a loud exhaust on it and when we were waiting for some of the other riders, you could hear it run. It never missed a beat, very crisp, clean, the sled was making good power. I was really impressed with this one because its the best running super charged Nytro I have ever been around.
I have rode my Big Chute 1100T from 4500 ft in the field to 9,500 ft climbing a 900 ft 45 degree or steeper slope with the same experiance ( it runs spot on every pull). In and out of the throttle doing technical manauvers in deep powder doesnt matter it just runs and pulls hard.
I guess my point is these guys are on their game and I think we have only seen a small part of their expertise, Ill bet there is much more to come.
Kevin
B
BigFish BC
Well-known member
so no exchange then & what is turn around time?
E
Evolution Powersports
Well-known member
We reflash them the same day they arrive. Shipping is usually the next business day. If urgent, we can bring the package to UPS for same day shipping service.
Similar threads
