Everybody see this??!!
- Thread starter winter brew
- Start date
How about we trade the current sledding areas for all the Wilderness that you don't want to use? Help us get sleds allowed in Wilderness (an exemption as used on Nat. Forest land) and there will be alot more sled-free and easy to access areas for the skiers. Sound good?
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WMC
Banned
Our issues are part of the topic here- the WWA Petition, which we signed.
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WMC
Banned
So you DO support 100% removal of snowmobiles from Nat Forest. Good "compromise".
No. We do want some areas for winter designated non-motorized areas on the pristine crest of the Wenatchee Mountains. We ride snowmobiles, many skiers ride snowmobiles. We would also support more road-plowing and more Sno Parks for access to Wilderness. We are about improving access for non-motorized users to some areas that do not have snowmobile traffic.
The Petition is about requiring management of snowmobiles as intended under the Executive Order for ORV use on Federal Lands. This will have a huge impact on snowmobile riding. My view is that one may oppose, as has been the case without discussion or compromise. Or one may try to understand and work for the best outcome.
Thank you.
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deepdiver
Well-known member
We all know you are Rondondee..Do you still have a job at the Hospital in Levenworth?
None the less..plowed roads...When the Clockum pass road was plowed all year one year and the east side of Clockum pass RD is a No snowmobile area for Elk reasons..not one damn time while I was on Search and rescue with the Chelan County Sherrifs Dept. did I see even one lonely pair of ski tracks. The only ones I saw were from a Doctor that got lost after falling off a hill on his skis while sking out of bounds at Mission Ridge. It was snowmobiles that rescued him.
You dont get it Rondondee....You dont ski enough terraign to need a million acres!! BTW...I have filed for the names on your petition under the freedom of information act. Even an email sent to the forest service can be made public. It is time you identify yourself. Obviously I could do it but you need to man up. It is the little changes that you want to impose that only open the door to the next one.
My proposal is that all winter activity be closed in the winter in any wilderness area..especially sking. It poses a threat to the Lynx. It also ruins the untouched virgin snow for the photographer.
WMC/Rondonee/Nurse we are tired of you and your lies. We are no longer able to give you any creditability and you have not earned any respect.
It is time we take a more offensive approach. There is little need for conversation with the likes of you because you just dont get it. What kinds of sleds do you ride? Are they fuel injected and do they meet the latest emissions standards...ill bet not.
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deepdiver
Well-known member
Hey ruffy...now you see why I would not give any respect to WMC/Rondumbdee. HE wants to use anything we say to understand what he needs to counter anything we have planned. What is bad is that there are plenty of good folks that are not greedy on skiis..I have given some rides and helped rescue others. They are the ones that get hurt with the likes of Rondondee ruining any respect they might have had.
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WMC
Banned
This part of the Petition specifically is the interest of WMC:
PUBLIC SAFETY
Snowmobiles are extremely powerful, fast machines that have significant impacts on the safety of other winter recreationists. Many stock snowmobiles today are built with 120- to 150-
horsepower engines, weigh up to 600 pounds, and can travel at speeds in excess of 100 miles per hour. At such speeds, a snowmobile will travel 200 feet before being able to come to a stop (National AG Safety Database). Horsepower and acceleration exceed that of many automobiles and snowmobile horsepower to weight ratios are equal to or higher than any other class of motorized vehicles manufactured today. Excessive speed is responsible for many snowmobile accidents. Snowmobile operators are often observed traveling dangerously fast on narrow trails despite numerous obstructions and obstructed visibility. A study in Alaska by Dr. Michael G. Landen of the New Mexico Department of Health found that for 1993-1994, the injury death and hospitalization rates were greater for snowmobiles than for on-road motor vehicles (Landen et al., 1999). During this period, 26 snowmobile injury deaths were reported in Alaska (16 in northern Alaska alone) for a rate of 27 deaths per 100,000 snowmobiles compared with 176 on-road motor vehicle injury deaths or 17 deaths per 100,000 on-road motor vehicles per year. This corresponded to a rate of 17 snowmobile injury deaths per 100 million miles driven, compared with two on-road motor vehicle injury deaths per 100 Petition to Remove OSV Exemption and Remedy Discretionary Management of OSVs – Draft 21 million miles driven. During this same time period, 238 snowmobile injury hospitalizations also occurred for a rate of 248 hospitalizations per 100,000 snowmobiles compared to 108 hospitalizations per 100,000 on-road motor vehicles in use. Between 1990 and 1994 there were 479 snowmobile deaths recorded in the United States with the majority reported in Alaska (63), Wisconsin (86), Minnesota (76), North Dakota (7), and Maine (15) (Landen et al., 1999). A number of studies have been published documenting the significant safety risks associated with snowmobile use (CDC 1995, CDC 1997, James et al., 1991, Gabert and Stueland 1993, Waller and Lamborn 1975, Rowe et al., 1992, Eriksson and Bjornstig 1982, Soininen and Hantula 1992, Rowe et al., 1994, Bjornstig et al., 1994). The tremendous power, weight and traction of snowmobiles are incompatible with skiers, snowshoers and other pedestrian users of winter trails and backcountry terrain.
CONFICTS WITH OTHER RECREATIONISTS
Until the early 1990s the conflict that existed between motorized and non-motorized winter recreation uses was localized; non-motorized forest visitors could still readily find places where they could get away from the negative effects of snowmobile use. However, by the 1990s snowmobiles were changing rapidly. More powerful machines and more skilled riders made almost no area off limit to their use. These technological advances in snowmobiles have dramatically altered winter use on NFS lands. Improvements in horsepower, weight, traction, and fuel tank capacities enable snowmobiles to access places previously reachable only by backcountry skiers or snowshoers. As documented repeatedly and extensively in Appendix E, “Documentation of User Conflict Due to Over-Snow Vehicle Use,” snowmobiles are incompatible with other forms of winter recreation such as snowshoeing, cross-country and backcountry skiing, wildlife observation, and winter hiking. Non-motorized winter recreationists report that the noise and smell of snowmobiles greatly reduces their level of enjoyment in the peaceful winter environment (Vitterso, et. all, 2004). The high speed of snowmobiles presents the danger of collision with slower cross-country skiers and snowshoers (Blue Water Network, 1999). Many skiers report that snowmobiles ruin ski trails (Baker and Bithmann, 2005).
Thank you.
PUBLIC SAFETY
Snowmobiles are extremely powerful, fast machines that have significant impacts on the safety of other winter recreationists. Many stock snowmobiles today are built with 120- to 150-
horsepower engines, weigh up to 600 pounds, and can travel at speeds in excess of 100 miles per hour. At such speeds, a snowmobile will travel 200 feet before being able to come to a stop (National AG Safety Database). Horsepower and acceleration exceed that of many automobiles and snowmobile horsepower to weight ratios are equal to or higher than any other class of motorized vehicles manufactured today. Excessive speed is responsible for many snowmobile accidents. Snowmobile operators are often observed traveling dangerously fast on narrow trails despite numerous obstructions and obstructed visibility. A study in Alaska by Dr. Michael G. Landen of the New Mexico Department of Health found that for 1993-1994, the injury death and hospitalization rates were greater for snowmobiles than for on-road motor vehicles (Landen et al., 1999). During this period, 26 snowmobile injury deaths were reported in Alaska (16 in northern Alaska alone) for a rate of 27 deaths per 100,000 snowmobiles compared with 176 on-road motor vehicle injury deaths or 17 deaths per 100,000 on-road motor vehicles per year. This corresponded to a rate of 17 snowmobile injury deaths per 100 million miles driven, compared with two on-road motor vehicle injury deaths per 100 Petition to Remove OSV Exemption and Remedy Discretionary Management of OSVs – Draft 21 million miles driven. During this same time period, 238 snowmobile injury hospitalizations also occurred for a rate of 248 hospitalizations per 100,000 snowmobiles compared to 108 hospitalizations per 100,000 on-road motor vehicles in use. Between 1990 and 1994 there were 479 snowmobile deaths recorded in the United States with the majority reported in Alaska (63), Wisconsin (86), Minnesota (76), North Dakota (7), and Maine (15) (Landen et al., 1999). A number of studies have been published documenting the significant safety risks associated with snowmobile use (CDC 1995, CDC 1997, James et al., 1991, Gabert and Stueland 1993, Waller and Lamborn 1975, Rowe et al., 1992, Eriksson and Bjornstig 1982, Soininen and Hantula 1992, Rowe et al., 1994, Bjornstig et al., 1994). The tremendous power, weight and traction of snowmobiles are incompatible with skiers, snowshoers and other pedestrian users of winter trails and backcountry terrain.
CONFICTS WITH OTHER RECREATIONISTS
Until the early 1990s the conflict that existed between motorized and non-motorized winter recreation uses was localized; non-motorized forest visitors could still readily find places where they could get away from the negative effects of snowmobile use. However, by the 1990s snowmobiles were changing rapidly. More powerful machines and more skilled riders made almost no area off limit to their use. These technological advances in snowmobiles have dramatically altered winter use on NFS lands. Improvements in horsepower, weight, traction, and fuel tank capacities enable snowmobiles to access places previously reachable only by backcountry skiers or snowshoers. As documented repeatedly and extensively in Appendix E, “Documentation of User Conflict Due to Over-Snow Vehicle Use,” snowmobiles are incompatible with other forms of winter recreation such as snowshoeing, cross-country and backcountry skiing, wildlife observation, and winter hiking. Non-motorized winter recreationists report that the noise and smell of snowmobiles greatly reduces their level of enjoyment in the peaceful winter environment (Vitterso, et. all, 2004). The high speed of snowmobiles presents the danger of collision with slower cross-country skiers and snowshoers (Blue Water Network, 1999). Many skiers report that snowmobiles ruin ski trails (Baker and Bithmann, 2005).
Thank you.
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You are correct. It is quite sad that the WMC are doing more to hurt their cause then anything else. Instead of trying to build bridges between the two groups, all they are doing is to create conflict where there is none, create problems where their weren't before.
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WMC
Banned
This may illustrate why snowmobile riders do not sense conflict, or do not even see skiers, who do not just jump in front of snowmobiles- they tend to leave the area. From the Petition:
The social conflict dimension with respect to OSV use is well documented. The most telling characteristic of the conflict between motorized and non-motorized recreationists is that the impacts fall disproportionately on one type of forest user. That is, the presence of a few skiers, snowshoers, snowboarders, climbers, winter hikers, hunters or anglers does not diminish the recreational experience of snowmobilers, while the noise, exhaust, tracks and speed of just one snowmobiler may significantly degrade the experience of many quiet recreationists over the many miles traveled by that one snowmobiler in a comparatively short time period.
Thank you.
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Ak nitro
Well-known member
WMC
From what I have read, you the WMC want to force all backcountry snowmobilers on to trails, no more cross country travel. Than you go ahead and post stats listing how dangerous trail riding can be, all the states you listed are midwest states where people are already forced to ride on trails, except Alaska, but you state that most of the accidents were in Northern Alaska. I lived in Alaska and I can tell you almost nobody in northern Alaska mountain rides, they ride Village to village on frozen rivers ( which most deaths are people falling into water holes or hitting tree stumps) as a means for there survival. How many mountian riders are running 100 mph, I have a turbo yamaha, and I have never had it up to 100 mph, mountain machines are not meant for speed like trail machines. Your examples of sleds being a public safety concern only show me why we should not be forced to ride trails, because they are obviously way more dangerous than riding in the mountains. And then you go and state that snowmobiles are just starting to reach areas where back country skiers have always been able to go, LOL. Where we ride it would take you boot backers a week to get into. I drive by empty wilderness all winter and see no ski tracks, where could all the skiers be, oh yeah they are poaching the tracks that the snowmobile clubs groom and our machines lay on the snow because it is way easier than making there own track. I can't believe you want to come on our website and have civil discusions when people like you are the single biggest threat to our livelyhoods.
From what I have read, you the WMC want to force all backcountry snowmobilers on to trails, no more cross country travel. Than you go ahead and post stats listing how dangerous trail riding can be, all the states you listed are midwest states where people are already forced to ride on trails, except Alaska, but you state that most of the accidents were in Northern Alaska. I lived in Alaska and I can tell you almost nobody in northern Alaska mountain rides, they ride Village to village on frozen rivers ( which most deaths are people falling into water holes or hitting tree stumps) as a means for there survival. How many mountian riders are running 100 mph, I have a turbo yamaha, and I have never had it up to 100 mph, mountain machines are not meant for speed like trail machines. Your examples of sleds being a public safety concern only show me why we should not be forced to ride trails, because they are obviously way more dangerous than riding in the mountains. And then you go and state that snowmobiles are just starting to reach areas where back country skiers have always been able to go, LOL. Where we ride it would take you boot backers a week to get into. I drive by empty wilderness all winter and see no ski tracks, where could all the skiers be, oh yeah they are poaching the tracks that the snowmobile clubs groom and our machines lay on the snow because it is way easier than making there own track. I can't believe you want to come on our website and have civil discusions when people like you are the single biggest threat to our livelyhoods.
Very good points ak..
Though I don't mind that he is here, actually I think it is great that non-motorized users discuss some of the issues that they have. I only wish it was with a more honest person and someone actually interested in engaging the snowmobile public.
The WMC is failing to do that.
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WMC
Banned
If someone drives a car through a campground or meadow with pedestrians at high speed, that would be a dangerous conflict. Snowmobile riding is a legitimate activity on and off road in the Forest, but all uses are managed. Speeding snowmobiles around skiers or on avalanche terrain present real hazards to skiers. Skiers, snowshoers and winter campers are not compatible with snowmobile riding in the same place. There is plenty of Forest, there is room to make some nice areas winter non-motorized.
Winter Brew posted this- "Of the available area to sledders, I would make a wild-a$$ guess that less than 5% is routinely used.
At least 90% of weekend sledders are mostly using the "popular" areas....it's not like they are evenly dispursed throughout the national forest. Look at Gold Creek and Salmonlasac alone.....probably 3/4 of the sledders in western Wa are there every weekend....a VERY small % of what's available for all to use."
So even though there is so much room, folks here cannot consider allowing some non-motorized areas? You folks state that you are mainstream family folks, if so we have that in common, but none here can consider our concerns, needs, and requests for our forest use, which we also own? Public Access for Public Land? No, snowmobiles must be ridden on every square foot- is that what is said here? USFS has already designated a few winter non-motorized areas, so it is a legitimate concept, but more are needed. More winter designated non-motorized areas are needed because of constantly expanding areas used by snowmobiles.
ruffryder I am here to try to have discussion and collaboration, as USFS folks suggested. WMC is making a legitimate effort to meet and discuss, collaborate, compromise winter Forest recreation issues.
Thank you.
yes they are, I have seen it, done it, and even got the t-shirt. All it takes is some common courtesy and respect. Pretty easy solution that seems to be working pretty good, except when the WMC talks that is.
I would agree, if it weren't for stupid statements from you like the below..
nobody is saying snowmobilers must be ridden on every square foot, except for you. Lots of people here have stated countless times about leaving terrain for non-motorized users and for giving them space, reducing speeds, and for helping out when they can be of assistance. Yet this goes un-noticed by the WMC countless times. It is getting old.
If snowmobiles are so dangerous, why do you ride them on trails near non-motorized users? Aren't you part of the problem?
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WMC
Banned
Nice. Please try to expand your consideration and embrace the concept that there is a different view. WMC is here to illustrate a different view. Are you folks not curious beyond just calling names like "crazy" etc? Why would a significant Organization that is funded by significant numbers of folks, Forest users, bring this Petition? Well, I am here discussing the views behind it. I really can't understand why you do not agree with much of what I say- like you do not in reverse understand much of what I say- but you have your views so I need to respect that. I try to find understanding through discussion.
The talk of courteous and considerate behavior is great. If that had been reality, and if Boundaries were respected in the past, we would not be having these discussions. I wish that some skiers could have better attitudes toward snowmobiles, I even sometimes get the stinkeye from skiers at times when I ride out to go skiing, even though I offer a tow. However, the reality is that many of us watch snowmobile riders track it up sometimes right where we were skiing first- and they may lawfully do that! It is fantastic that some folks are posting Wilderness Boundary signs, but the fact is that for many years there has been plenty of snowmobile riding right by bright orange Wilderness Boundary signs. It is interesting in these and other discussions that snowmobile riders talk of places such as Ingalls Lake and the Stuart range and appear to not realize that those areas are in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness! There are significant issues that cause this advocacy for winter non-motorized recreation.
And to all folks here who may not have followed all of the WMC discussions, the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition wants some areas of the Wenatchee Mountains crest designated as non-motorized. A few percent of the total, not the entire Forest, off limits to snowmobiles.
WMC believes that meeting to accomplish cooperation and compromise will get some of what we are after while offering some advantages for snowmobile interests in setting a precedent for established riding areas. When this Winter Wildlands Alliance Petition is in effect, all of the Forest will be negotiated in the manner that WMC is trying. Let's get started.
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How many of these were snowmobile/skier related injuries? I'm thinking none.....so out of all the statistics they could find, and the claims to incompatibility for decades, there are no statistics of sledders injuring skiers?.....and since the number of snowmobiles AND skiers has been dropping steadily over the last 10+ year one would have to conclude that the odds of an accident are also dropping.
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WMC
Banned
Good point. I know of no reports of skiers hurt by snowmobile rider. Nor do I know of jerks who stab at snowmobilers with a ski pole to actually cause an injury either...
The issue is that skiers and snowshoers just leave the area or get out of the way of snowmobile riders. That is the incompatibiity. That is why we need separate areas- we do not want to be close to speeding snowmobiles, and you guys want to ride hard and have fun.
Thanks.
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