Driveshaft thoughts..

[Sunvang]

Sorry my mistake, in my bid to keep up with all these posts do a bit of speed reading, misread drivers for driveshaft. I am interested to know his source though however, possibly from a dealer? That is the part about hearing two specific dates where driveshafs were manufactured wrong. That's the problem with rumours. I am wondering where polaris is currently sitting on the topic. I should sure hope we hear something from them soon. There is obviously an issue, not nearly as HUGE as this site and snow and mud are making it out to be. I was getting at if the steel insert and aluminum shaft weren't mated perfectly center with a good strong bond, then vibrations will aid to some shaft failures. Any way you look there is a manufactuing defect going on here causing some shafts to fail. Whether it is insufficent glue, inadequate bonding, misalignment of steel insert to shaft or any combination of the above remains to be answered.

Heard it from a friend who is a dealer, who said he got a notice from Polaris regarding the problem. Acording to him it was a regarding some sleds in the states, and about 10 sleds in Norway.

But i need to correct myself! It was not the drivers that was out of alignment, but the part on the belt drive side, that is glued to the aluminum shaft, that was skewed after the glue process.

That could explain the broken driveshaft because of wobble, and also the belt drive failures, since it also would loosen the drive belt some.

 

[nuggetau]

I don't think they put that much thought into it .
Adhesive applied fence post cap pressed in ready for install , that simple .

That really give me a good laugh, thanks.

 

[Matte Murder]

AK do you think this is going to be a problem effecting a small percentage of sleds, all of them, or somewhere in between? I ordered a shaft to have a back up. I don't think I am going to install it before I ride. May regret that...

 

[nuggetau]

AK do you think this is going to be a problem effecting a small percentage of sleds, all of them, or somewhere in between? I ordered a shaft to have a back up. I don't think I am going to install it before I ride. May regret that...

No slam intended towards AK, but why do you think he would know any more than the rest of us? He will have an opinion, just like the rest of us, but that is all it will be. If you have a solid shaft in reserve, you are good to go.............well at least til your QD belt fails or your top end fails.


If even 1/2 of 1% fail, it will be an enourmous PR nightmare for Polaris because this story will never die on the internet( because people rightly fear riding a sled that might strand them). If they sell 20,000 sleds with a failure rate of 1/2 of 1% that would be 100 people complaining online, not to mention the endless second hand stories about what they "heard".

 

[sledneck_03]

I dont understand all this warranty talk? are you telling me if you change the drive shaft and you have electrical problems they wont warranty the electrical??? or are you concerned if your dealer or you put a last years drive shaft in they wont warranty the last years known reliable drive shaft??? If i can fix it my self rather than having some kid at the dealer fix it and have to drop off and pick up my sled and its stuck at the dealer for weeks i will, but if my motor goes ill take it in.....

like i remember seeing if you put better boards on it will void your warranty? what warranty? on your tunnel in case it bends??? like ****...... you need a better ****ing dealer.

I have 2 inch lift on my 1500 truck and my ball joints went and no questions asked about the lift or who installed it or anything.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

AK do you think this is going to be a problem effecting a small percentage of sleds, all of them, or somewhere in between? I ordered a shaft to have a back up. I don't think I am going to install it before I ride. May regret that...

Honestly Matt, right now I am not sure, my gut says polaris does enough failure analisis to know the shaft will hold up..and because of this, I think it will be a small amount...

No slam intended towards AK, but why do you think he would know any more than the rest of us? He will have an opinion, just like the rest of us, but that is all it will be. If you have a solid shaft in reserve, you are good to go.............well at least til your QD belt fails or your top end fails.
If even 1/2 of 1% fail, it will be an enourmous PR nightmare for Polaris because this story will never die on the internet( because people rightly fear riding a sled that might strand them). If they sell 20,000 sleds with a failure rate of 1/2 of 1% that would be 100 people complaining online, not to mention the endless second hand stories about what they "heard".

No slam taken, and you are right, I am not privy to much insider info..(although I do have some), I do sub contract to the biggest polaris/arctic cat/ skidoo/honda dealer in the world(total the company has over 2600 stores located thru out alaska and canada) and they sell everything..including the kitchen sink.. as for my opinion, well 30 yrs building custom racecars, wrenching, building custom axles, drivetrains, engines..so yeah, I can put up a pretty good idea...Will i always be right? no absolutely not......

I dont understand all this warranty talk? are you telling me if you change the drive shaft and you have electrical problems they wont warranty the electrical??? or are you concerned if your dealer or you put a last years drive shaft in they wont warranty the last years known reliable drive shaft??? If i can fix it my self rather than having some kid at the dealer fix it and have to drop off and pick up my sled and its stuck at the dealer for weeks i will, but if my motor goes ill take it in.....

like i remember seeing if you put better boards on it will void your warranty? what warranty? on your tunnel in case it bends??? like ****...... you need a better ****ing dealer.

I have 2 inch lift on my 1500 truck and my ball joints went and no questions asked about the lift or who installed it or anything.

Polaris can void your warranty..will they? most likely not if you change the shaft out for a 12..but it is possible,(I would have a heart to heart with my dealer and ask him to call polaris and see if they will autho the shaft exchange if you pay for it(thus keeping warranty intact and showing polaris there is a concern from owners) now will it void your whole warranty, I doubt it should just void the track, shaft/drivers and maybe the quickdrive assemby.......now for those considering the clamp on setup..if you study the shafts in pics(broken ones) while the clamp should stop the aluminum shaft from chunking off..it will not stop the hub from coming out of the shaft if the glue fails...it will still break if the glue fails...It may actually spread/ bend the tunnel out if it cant wobble the shaft out of the way(I doubt it, I think the shaft will just wobble apart), I say this because of how small the overlap is in the 2 peices...just not enough there to hold the shaft togeather if it comes unglued.........these are my honest opinions, and what I would do if I was that concerned of failure of the shaft..honestly I think if you follow polaris break in procedures for the Belt, it will help...I have contacted Paul at LORDS Adhesive to try and get some info on the glue as to estimated strength vrs a welded steel shaft, not sure if I will get any answers but will post whatever they do share..Mike

 

[OregonRMK]

AKSNOWRIDER, thanks for your opinions. Everyone freaking out on here has me scared to take my sled out of the garage. It's nice to hear someone say something other then doom and gloom. I'm thinking if the glue was put on and cured correctly it will not be an issue. Hopefully the snow falls soon and we all have better things to do then just speculate on how bad it may or may not be.

 

[minecat]

Has any one else been told about the bulletin that the dealers got about picking these new 13 pros up with forklifts from under the belly pan area more specifically under the belt drive. I was informed by my dealer that polaris is claiming that this is what is causing the failures

 

[cb2honk]

Has any one else been told about the bulletin that the dealers got about picking these new 13 pros up with forklifts from under the belly pan area more specifically under the belt drive. I was informed by my dealer that polaris is claiming that this is what is causing the failures

If this is the case, that is very sad.

 

[snowmobiler]

i wouldnt think with the bearing in there that it would pop the driveshaft apart

 

[RKT]

IMO, the shaft design is lacking and will need to be addressed. The glued surface is simply not large enough to name one area that needs adjustment. There are certainly other areas as well..

IMO, the chassis will have to "flex", "Move", or "spread" a good distance before the shaft can seperate from the end caps.. This is not impossible to have happen but difficult.

What DOES happen BEFORE the end caps can even think about coming out of the shaft is the shaft's outer surface breaks.. After this failure occurs, the end caps can EASILY seperate themselves from the shaft and you take a trip over the windshield.

The kit we offer will help prevent this from happening..

 

[whoisthatguy]

Picking up half the sled on a forklift fork, will at most be a 220 lb force. Which compares to the tension on the belt while the engine is putting out 120 ft-lbs of torque, is over 700 lbs. Just sayin.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Has any one else been told about the bulletin that the dealers got about picking these new 13 pros up with forklifts from under the belly pan area more specifically under the belt drive. I was informed by my dealer that polaris is claiming that this is what is causing the failures

I just looked at all service bullitins..only thing showing for 13s are for lower a-arms and a new one for shock bolts, shearing..thats it that I see, there could of been a team tip..but couldnt find anything there either...could also(and most likely) be a fax/email that I havent seen yet from the higher ups....

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Picking up half the sled on a forklift fork, will at most be a 220 lb force. Which compares to the tension on the belt while the engine is putting out 120 ft-lbs of torque, is over 700 lbs. Just sayin.

Who..actually, if its someone whos not being careful, got the forklift revved up and in a hurry, my guess would be he could exert enough pressure on the lower pulley(it will have leverage on the shaft, the bearing will be the pivot point) to exceed what the shaft was designed for..Polaris could be right about this, it could be just enough force to start the demise of the joint on the shaft...which then fails on your ride....

 

[snowmobiler]

if thats what is happening its a major fail and they better start over.

 

[Hawkster]

Has any one else been told about the bulletin that the dealers got about picking these new 13 pros up with forklifts from under the belly pan area more specifically under the belt drive. I was informed by my dealer that polaris is claiming that this is what is causing the failures

Becareful how you phrase that one . Some of these dealers are hanging on tooth and nail and don't need the Untouchables blaming them . Does it come with a binky ?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

IMO, the shaft design is lacking and will need to be addressed. The glued surface is simply not large enough to name one area that needs adjustment. There are certainly other areas as well..

IMO, the chassis will have to "flex", "Move", or "spread" a good distance before the shaft can seperate from the end caps.. This is not impossible to have happen but difficult.

What DOES happen BEFORE the end caps can even think about coming out of the shaft is the shaft's outer surface breaks.. After this failure occurs, the end caps can EASILY seperate themselves from the shaft and you take a trip over the windshield.

The kit we offer will help prevent this from happening..

Ok...first off, I have a feeling this is going nowhere but south in a big hurry...I sure hope it doesnt.........

Ok, so your clamp setup ...If peeps look at the pics of the failed shafts, its obvious that the hub tore out the side of the tube at the joint...so your idea is to clamp a steel collar over it so it cant rip apart the tube..great..but the tube wont rip at the joint...unless the glue breaks loose....and if the glue breaks loose..your tube clamp is not going to prevent the hub from coming out from the tube(theres just to much force for it not too and too short of an overlap between the tube and hub)...so if it cant come out thru the side of the tube(as pictured in current failures) because of your steel collar, then its going to climb out the end of the tube by spreading the tunnel(its only sheetmetal on the clutch side)..until the hub pops out of the tube...so your right back to square one, sled that wont move....

now lets say I install this clamp, and my shaft holds up, and down the road polaris does a bulletin/recall/claim, and I remove your clamp, remember now..this is a steel clamp tightly clamped to a extruded aluminum tube...and take the sled to my dealer...they pull it down, take pics of the shaft(polaris does this on almost every warranty claim, and since they read these forums threads, they know this clamp is out there), and they can see signs that something was on the tube..and they deny my coverage... My QUESTION IS THIS..IN EITHER CASE,I bought your clamp, installed it, in one the clamp didnt stop the joint from failing and in the process it bowed my tunnel. or I rode sled, polaris does a recall/claim/ bulletin and i remove clamp, take sled in and they deny due to signs of something being clamped on it.....is RKT GOING TO COVER MY REPAIRS? becasue I know if I leave it stock, and it fails or they do a recall/bulletin/claim..polaris will cover it.........and they do deny stuff all the time..I know because I just got done spending 9 months getting my sled completely covered for a failed injector(yep 7 grand in parts alone for a fuel fire caused by an injector)and it took filing a consumer complaint with the AG to get it taken care of...(and this was indeed a real safety issue..yet no recall/no bulletin to fix before failure)....

Now with that said..my sole reason to answer this post was so people will understand..you mod anything on your sled...Polaris can and most likely will deny your coverage..meaning you are paying for it out of pocket.........and if the glue on the driveshaft joint breaks..no tube clamp will keep the driveshaft togeather with such a short overlap...........THINK BEFORE YOU MOD.......

 

[RKT]

Ok...first off, I have a feeling this is going nowhere but south in a big hurry...I sure hope it doesnt.........

Ok, so your clamp setup ...If peeps look at the pics of the failed shafts, its obvious that the hub tore out the side of the tube at the joint...so your idea is to clamp a steel collar over it so it cant rip apart the tube..great..but the tube wont rip at the joint...unless the glue breaks loose....and if the glue breaks loose..your tube clamp is not going to prevent the hub from coming out from the tube(theres just to much force for it not too and too short of an overlap between the tube and hub)...so if it cant come out thru the side of the tube(as pictured in current failures) because of your steel collar, then its going to climb out the end of the tube by spreading the tunnel(its only sheetmetal on the clutch side)..until the hub pops out of the tube...so your right back to square one, sled that wont move....

now lets say I install this clamp, and my shaft holds up, and down the road polaris does a bulletin/recall/claim, and I remove your clamp, remember now..this is a steel clamp tightly clamped to a extruded aluminum tube...and take the sled to my dealer...they pull it down, take pics of the shaft(polaris does this on almost every warranty claim, and since they read these forums threads, they know this clamp is out there), and they can see signs that something was on the tube..and they deny my coverage... My QUESTION IS THIS..IN EITHER CASE,I bought your clamp, installed it, in one the clamp didnt stop the joint from failing and in the process it bowed my tunnel. or I rode sled, polaris does a recall/claim/ bulletin and i remove clamp, take sled in and they deny due to signs of something being clamped on it.....is RKT GOING TO COVER MY REPAIRS? becasue I know if I leave it stock, and it fails or they do a recall/bulletin/claim..polaris will cover it.........and they do deny stuff all the time..I know because I just got done spending 9 months getting my sled completely covered for a failed injector(yep 7 grand in parts alone for a fuel fire caused by an injector)and it took filing a consumer complaint with the AG to get it taken care of...(and this was indeed a real safety issue..yet no recall/no bulletin to fix before failure)....

Now with that said..my sole reason to answer this post was so people will understand..you mod anything on your sled...Polaris can and most likely will deny your coverage..meaning you are paying for it out of pocket.........and if the glue on the driveshaft joint breaks..no tube clamp will keep the driveshaft togeather with such a short overlap...........THINK BEFORE YOU MOD.......

Please tell me how you know there will be a "mark" present after this install? How do you know this??

With all due respect....a Recall is NOT the same as a warranty and a RECALL is what is required here.. NOT a warranty claim.. TOTALLY different .. Recalls can NOT be denied do to ANY mods..

OK, The glue is NOT the only substance holding these ends in the shaft.. The 6 corners of the extruded shaft are mated with the 6 corners of the end caps and the glue is there for the flat edges.. So, you have SIX points of metal on metal contact COUPLED with glue hold these pieces together.. Just like a hex head bolt and a socket.. NO glue required to turn the bolt out, YET, it comes out even under 200 ft/lbs of torque or better without failure making contact at the 6 corners.. Same with this design.. The glue is just an added substance to give more stength NOT the sole "contacting" / "Bonding" agent..

SO, IF the glue fails, you still have the 6 corners providing contact (again just like a socket and bolt) .

Glue failing = BAD but for the shaft to seperate from the end pieces, the shaft must ALSO let go of the contact at the points before it can totally fail.. OR the tunnel has to flex or bend enough to allow for the end pieces to "walk" and seperate..

Here is the way I see it (just my observation) the weakest area is the thin extrusion's outer shell. Once it "moves" it is all over even if the glue remains intact... SO, ANYTHING you can do to strengthen the extrusion's outer shell will increase the amount of force required to cause fracture..

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Polaris may or maynot have a recall..most likely not..and I can back that up, in 11 the pros failed injectors like crazy, dealers were changing injectors constantly..(this is a fuel injector, when they go bad they dump fuel into the motor, loading it and the exhaust full(which the hot exhaust then lights on fire, turning the exhaust cherry red and melting the plastic and eventually catching on fire) I know this because my 11 did this, as have many others..no safety recall...no recall. no letter of info..just simple general warranty claim on failure...So YOU CANT GUARENTEE THAT THERE WILL BE A RECALL..just as likely there wont even be a service bulletin, just a general warranty claim on each failure...
as for your bolt and socket analogy..yep..and nothing keeps the bolt from sliding out of the socket ..nothing..and in the case of the hub and tube...the only thing that keeps it from coming apart is the glue...period..easy to prove too..heat it up and pull with your bare hands..hub will slide right out of the tube...so the only thing that will hold it togeather once the glue breaks...is the sheetmetal tunnel, and its not strong enough to with stand the forces made by the driveshaft trying to tear itself apart........
And finally, for your clamp and leaving indications that it was on there..even if it doesnt leave a clamp mark(remeber, this is a heavy steel collar being sucked down tight on a thin sheetmetal aluminum tube extrusion.. even if no mark is left, i havent seen a driveshaft yet that didnt show all sorts of marks from being blasted with stuff while run..so , run this clamp for a while and then remove it and take it in..the area where the clamp was will look brand new/smooth compared to the rest of the shaft..very noticable even if it doesnt crimp up the tube..any one doubts this..walk out and flip any used sled up on its side and look at the driveshaft..it will have a blasted look to it.......... so that brings me back to..if polaris denies my warranty..are you going to pay for the repairs if I run your clamp?

 

[RKT]

Polaris may or maynot have a recall..most likely not..and I can back that up, in 11 the pros failed injectors like crazy, dealers were changing injectors constantly..(this is a fuel injector, when they go bad they dump fuel into the motor, loading it and the exhaust full(which the hot exhaust then lights on fire, turning the exhaust cherry red and melting the plastic and eventually catching on fire) I know this because my 11 did this, as have many others..no safety recall...no recall. no letter of info..just simple general warranty claim on failure...So YOU CANT GUARENTEE THAT THERE WILL BE A RECALL..just as likely there wont even be a service bulletin, just a general warranty claim on each failure...
as for your bolt and socket analogy..yep..and nothing keeps the bolt from sliding out of the socket ..nothing..and in the case of the hub and tube...the only thing that keeps it from coming apart is the glue...period..easy to prove too..heat it up and pull with your bare hands..hub will slide right out of the tube...so the only thing that will hold it togeather once the glue breaks...is the sheetmetal tunnel, and its not strong enough to with stand the forces made by the driveshaft trying to tear itself apart........
And finally, for your clamp and leaving indications that it was on there..even if it doesnt leave a clamp mark(remeber, this is a heavy steel collar being sucked down tight on a thin sheetmetal aluminum tube extrusion.. even if no mark is left, i havent seen a driveshaft yet that didnt show all sorts of marks from being blasted with stuff while run..so , run this clamp for a while and then remove it and take it in..the area where the clamp was will look brand new/smooth compared to the rest of the shaft..very noticable even if it doesnt crimp up the tube..any one doubts this..walk out and flip any used sled up on its side and look at the driveshaft..it will have a blasted look to it.......... so that brings me back to..if polaris denies my warranty..are you going to pay for the repairs if I run your clamp?

Mike,

I guess will agree to disagree on this one..

The shaft and end pieces are "bound" together via the tunnel.. it is no different than the the jack shaft or A-Arms and a few other areas... They are "sandwiched" / "Bound" at each end.. So, is this drive shaft..

Back to the socket and bolt analogy, the pressure from your ratchet or hand keeps the socket from working its way off the bolt head.. Same with this drive shaft... the bearing at PTO and and shaft at the other end, maintains pressure on the shaft and keeps it from moving laterally..
This MUST be the case otherwise your drive shaft would move side to side.. So, it must be bound at each end.. So, in answer to your question. THAT is what will keep it from moving laterally.. As long as the end pieces can not "tilt" they should remain fixed in the shaft. Once they tilt, the thin outer wall wil fracture and then there is nothing holding them in the shaft anymore and they are free to move in any direction they wish.. If the outer wall never fractures, the shaft should remain "connected" via the 6 corners to each end piece.

As for my piece leaving marks or not.. I think it is fair to say that you are just speculating on this since you have never seen the part or installed it.. So, hopefully, we can get past that one?