Does Cat Regret Building the ProClimb???

[high time]

Joe you know why they took the step .......

Now that they have a chassis that will work, maybe not the best, in the mountains, but will accommodate a fourstroke, they will find themselves on top as the years tic away. They do have a great ride, although not a leader, it's not over 'til the fat lady sings, and we have the fat lady.

Owen

 

[GoBigParts]

We haven't seen the longevity of the 2 stroke 600 DSI motor from cat yet, so your theory might be out the window on 2000 miles for pistons and rings.

Might be and lets hope it is. However, I can only judge of what we have seen from clean burning 2-strokes so far. Ski-doo has had numorous recalls and have replaced many pistons and rings on their e-tec 800 and we all now Polaris has had their share of motor issues, mostly pistons and rings since the Pro came out. Not sure if Cats 600 is going to be the one that is going to make longevity with their 600 clean burning engine right out of the gate. Look how long ski-doo has been making SDI engines. They have the most time under their belt and they still have issues. My buddy's 12 just got recalled for new pistons and rings.

Point is I don't want a four stroke, I want a light weight 2-stroke and light weight chassis for boondocking.

 

[arctic2009]

Might be and lets hope it is. However, I can only judge of what we have seen from clean burning 2-strokes so far. Ski-doo has had numorous recalls and have replaced many pistons and rings on their e-tec 800 and we all now Polaris has had their share of motor issues, mostly pistons and rings since the Pro came out. Not sure if Cats 600 is going to be the one that is going to make longevity with their 600 clean burning engine right out of the gate. Look how long ski-doo has been making SDI engines. They have the most time under their belt and they still have issues. My buddy's 12 just got recalled for new pistons and rings.

Point is I don't want a four stroke, I want a light weight 2-stroke and light weight chassis for boondocking.

I suppose you have a good point, but ski doo was also using the grease packed crank whifor however long, and we all know how long those lasted. Point is, just because youre first doesnt mean youre the best, and no matter how long youve been doing it someone can come up with something better.

 

[stingray719]

Might be and lets hope it is. However, I can only judge of what we have seen from clean burning 2-strokes so far. Ski-doo has had numorous recalls and have replaced many pistons and rings on their e-tec 800 and we all now Polaris has had their share of motor issues, mostly pistons and rings since the Pro came out. Not sure if Cats 600 is going to be the one that is going to make longevity with their 600 clean burning engine right out of the gate. Look how long ski-doo has been making SDI engines. They have the most time under their belt and they still have issues. My buddy's 12 just got recalled for new pistons and rings.

Point is I don't want a four stroke, I want a light weight 2-stroke and light weight chassis for boondocking.

I point to the direct injection boat motors Yamaha designed for Evinrude. How many years have those been successful? Now I have every reason to believe the Cat 600 and some future larger engine has been designed by Yamaha. With Yamaha on thier side I think the engine in Cat or Yamaha in the next few years will be the least thing to worry about.............

 

[1rarel78]

Been on the M platform since the introduction. I am having real issues adapting to my new sled. Wheelies to much for my taste,probably should have stuck with a 162. Missin my M so far,seemed more predictable. Hope I just need more time on it.

 

[Jeff C]

So what your saying is Cat has been sleeping with Yamaha so long that they, Cat is almost as far out of the mountain segment as Yamaha was in 2009. IMO Cat has just plain walked away from the mountain sleds and is strictly focused on making flat land, lake racers and groomers. They have no business in the mountains.

When you have a one size fits all, you can damn well bet it will not work for some and will work great for others. And in this case again, the mountain guys are taking it in the a$$.

Thunder

Thunder:

Yamaha was not "out" of the mountain segment ever. They carved a niche out of the segment and had a very strong following of those people who wanted four stroke reliability. Nobody else had that at the time. So I could turn your argument around and say that the other three were "far out" of the four stroke mountain segment. What Yamaha went for, they got, and got 100% of that market.

Your assertion that this new chassis "has no business in the mountains". Well that is just laughable. The new chassis is very capable in the mountains. Is it the best chassis for the mountains? Some might say it is, some will say no it is not.

Your point of: "And in this case again, the mountain guys are taking it in the a$$."

If you feel this way, then you HAVE CHOICES! don't buy that POS Cat then. Polaris and Doo will be happy to take your money.

Cat made a long term business decision. I think they did the right thing, given the pressures of bringing in Yamaha, motor choices, motors going away, and new motors coming in.

Can you imagine the production costs of having several chassis designs depending on what motor you want? You have to balance business cost concerns with what ideally you would "like to have" as a company.

This chassis will only get better and better over time.

 

[GoBigParts]

I suppose you have a good point, but ski doo was also using the grease packed crank whifor however long, and we all know how long those lasted. Point is, just because youre first doesnt mean youre the best, and no matter how long youve been doing it someone can come up with something better.

Well I hope they get a clean burning 2-stroke 800 out soon we outstanding reliability because this is what the industry needs right now.

 

[backcountryislife]

What is the future for cat. I hear the engine will not meet EPA compliance and will disappear. Which will make it even harder to get close the ProRMK weight.

I do believe the reason the cat motor is better is because it is dirty. I have yet to see a clean burning 2 stroke not need pistons and rings after 2000-5000 miles no matter the brand.

Do we really care about how long we go on pistons that much? To me pistons are cheap, and an easy swap to re-invigorate a motor, and keep it safe. The FIFO design of the cat will IMO always be risking the front skirt, even more so with the cutout skirt of the new motor (or is that in the rear? Anyone know?), but the motor itself is the most bomber thing out there... I'm fine with some new pistons here & there as long as they don't start raping us on them. Right now Suzuki pistons are affordable enough that a swap is no big deal... I love that.

 

[bradburck]

I don't think there is a way to compete in this market with a multiple chassis sled line. There just aren't enough new sled purchased every year. We also need to remember each and every manufacturer has time tables on their sleds in terms of chassis life. I almost feel as though cat needs to separate itself like Dodge has done with the ram and dodge. Be amazing to have a purpose build division of cat that focused solely on their own chassis and mountain segment specific sleds and it's needs. I think at all levels we are trying to make parts of the sled do a job that it isn't made to do. I also think that trying to make a sled that is built purposefully for one aspect of riding is difficult for an open market company such as cat. CMX or BDX does well because guys are looking to enhance just one portion of their riding (IE back country, on edge sledding)

One area I think cat is doing well in actually is making a sled that is pretty solid in all areas of riding, may not be king in any one area, but does all of them well. It handles the trails well (a factor for them, not necessarily those of us that are back country specific), handles straight climbing well, handles the trees well (when set up correctly). That is actually tough to do, which again brings me back to my initial point that they need to separate the two divisions of cat and push themselves to create something that is purpose driven to ride in the "trees".

That is what the market is demanding now. I think we are starting to get to a place that the market demands lighter weight, better on-edge sleds then straight up horse power. I know I can only speak for myself, but I'm having as much, probably more fun on a NA sled then I did the past 3 years on the turbo because of the chassis dynamics, lighter weight, more rider forward type of sled I've got now.

Back to the original question, no I don't think Cat regrets the proclimb. Definitely could've spent more time working on making them better for a first year, but just as everyone, they've pushed the refinement process. I think it was 1 year too early and it's hurting sales now as people still have a poor taste in their mouth after the 12 model year, which is too bad. I know we did in my group and now that I've got one (that is very much NOT stock) it has changed my entire groups outlook on the sleds. Been lots of debate in my camp about guys coming back to the cat after seeing what a well set-up cat can be compared to the other two.

 

[geo]

Tough love question JSun!

Cat made a lot of China connections (some have been dropped lol) for 2012 and the production line costs, for the future, inline with the bean counters wanted.
So I think in the round table meetings, they would call the 2012 year a success. A hic-up in one form of motor sports is washed out by the success of another. I'm sure there is zero '12's in the warehouse.
I'mprettysure they include the Yamaha's in the bottom line now too.

The question you ask should be put to the western dealers (by private ballot) at the spring dealer show. They may still have a couple of '12's or 13's on the floor.

A round about way of looking at your question could be resale. Around here a cherry '06 M7 sells pretty quick for too much money. A '11 M8 is hard to find (they sold a ton though) and other brand dealers take them on trade.
Not many will take a Pro-climb unless you want to give it away.

'14 could turn that around though (just being polite lol) but from a rider's point of view, until they reach the #1 in sales again (that says a lot to me, it's like voting lol) they are not quite back to the standard of the M series.
And it isn't because of the chassis.

 

[knifedge]

Well I hope they get a clean burning 2-stroke 800 out soon we outstanding reliability because this is what the industry needs right now.

--The new motors inject oil when they need to relative to RPM and power output--they should be fine

 

[Woody67]

Do we really care about how long we go on pistons that much? To me pistons are cheap, and an easy swap to re-invigorate a motor, and keep it safe. The FIFO design of the cat will IMO always be risking the front skirt, even more so with the cutout skirt of the new motor (or is that in the rear? Anyone know?), but the motor itself is the most bomber thing out there... I'm fine with some new pistons here & there as long as they don't start raping us on them. Right now Suzuki pistons are affordable enough that a swap is no big deal... I love that.

The fuel injectors and cutout are in the rear.

 

[speedybeedy]

I had to laugh at a post in the first page. A guy said doo fold when you hit a stump. Haha. Well I'd agree there. I would assume everything is going to fold when you hit a stump.
This post comes down to where you ride and what you ride. Some guys here come on and say we love the cats. They live on the flats. Manitoba Ontario and sask. I love the looks of the cats and agree there motors are good but here in BC you just don't see allot of them. There heavy and not functional for deep fluffy powder. The pros do sell yes and guys will buy them especially if they have a dealer close to them that's really good to them and I do to blame them. Having a dealer that will fix your sled for you overnight so you can ride again the next day when there is 3 feet of fresh goes along way instead if a dealer telling you sorry bud well have your sled back to you in 2 weeks and you miss 4 blue bird powder dAys that are worth there weight in gold to a sled head. But you put all dealers equal side by side and you live in the mountains you ride a doo. There by far best fit and finish. Most reliable and best in the mountains. Some guys will go for the pros but there looking to save 1500 bucks on the original purchase price not realizing they need a pipe programmer and clutch kit to make it compare to a doo and there A arms fall apart at the seems when you do a few drops or hit jumps. Most dealers around here stood behind there customers and replaced all the broken a arms and I know Polaris did t want to stand behind it until after the 500 one came in and I still hear stories from some guys that had to come out of pocket to fix there's. So shame on the dealers and Polaris for leaving those guys hung out to dry and good for you dealers that stood behind your customers and replaced there customers a arms for them without question.
We ride in the mountains here so I can only speak for mountiAn riding. Last year I put over 4000 km total and spent time on all 3 sleds. The Polaris feels wierd because you can't get your feet far enough under the foot wells to feel in control. But it is a good sled and did work well. The a arms came apart on it on my 2 nd day. The glue was not glued all the way around the joint and it came apart from regular wear and tear. I ride the hell out of the doo and couldn't faze it. Never burn a belt all yeAr and ran like a clock. We had tons of belt problems with the cats. There heavy and didn't climb or outperform any of the others. There definatley in last place for mountain powder riding. Again The pros are good but you can't sacrifice weight in a sled to the point were guys are breaking apart a arms and missing days on the hill and having to battle with dealer and the company for wArrant issues when you only have a designated Amount of riding time in a year and your losing days because of a cheap manufacture defect and Polaris is now seeing the effects of that this year in lost sales and guys going over to skidoo.
More and more guys have now gone to the doo around our territory. They offer a unbeatable mountain sled at the top of the industry in all aspects with a 4 yeR warranty which is why they are slowly taking over. If you think I'm wrong go I to kijiji and look at used sleds for sale in BC Alberta. Count the number of 2013 pros that are for sale and what there selling for. And then have a look for some 2013 xms. It's more than a 10-1 ratio and that's if you can even find a Xm on there for sale.

 

[Slick]

I had to laugh at a post in the first page. A guy said doo fold when you hit a stump. Haha. Well I'd agree there. I would assume everything is going to fold when you hit a stump.
This post comes down to where you ride and what you ride. Some guys here come on and say we love the cats. They live on the flats. Manitoba Ontario and sask. I love the looks of the cats and agree there motors are good but here in BC you just don't see allot of them. There heavy and not functional for deep fluffy powder. The pros do sell yes and guys will buy them especially if they have a dealer close to them that's really good to them and I do to blame them. Having a dealer that will fix your sled for you overnight so you can ride again the next day when there is 3 feet of fresh goes along way instead if a dealer telling you sorry bud well have your sled back to you in 2 weeks and you miss 4 blue bird powder dAys that are worth there weight in gold to a sled head. But you put all dealers equal side by side and you live in the mountains you ride a doo. There by far best fit and finish. Most reliable and best in the mountains. Some guys will go for the pros but there looking to save 1500 bucks on the original purchase price not realizing they need a pipe programmer and clutch kit to make it compare to a doo and there A arms fall apart at the seems when you do a few drops or hit jumps. Most dealers around here stood behind there customers and replaced all the broken a arms and I know Polaris did t want to stand behind it until after the 500 one came in and I still hear stories from some guys that had to come out of pocket to fix there's. So shame on the dealers and Polaris for leaving those guys hung out to dry and good for you dealers that stood behind your customers and replaced there customers a arms for them without question.
We ride in the mountains here so I can only speak for mountiAn riding. Last year I put over 4000 km total and spent time on all 3 sleds. The Polaris feels wierd because you can't get your feet far enough under the foot wells to feel in control. But it is a good sled and did work well. The a arms came apart on it on my 2 nd day. The glue was not glued all the way around the joint and it came apart from regular wear and tear. I ride the hell out of the doo and couldn't faze it. Never burn a belt all yeAr and ran like a clock. We had tons of belt problems with the cats. There heavy and didn't climb or outperform any of the others. There definatley in last place for mountain powder riding. Again The pros are good but you can't sacrifice weight in a sled to the point were guys are breaking apart a arms and missing days on the hill and having to battle with dealer and the company for wArrant issues when you only have a designated Amount of riding time in a year and your losing days because of a cheap manufacture defect and Polaris is now seeing the effects of that this year in lost sales and guys going over to skidoo.
More and more guys have now gone to the doo around our territory. They offer a unbeatable mountain sled at the top of the industry in all aspects with a 4 yeR warranty which is why they are slowly taking over. If you think I'm wrong go I to kijiji and look at used sleds for sale in BC Alberta. Count the number of 2013 pros that are for sale and what there selling for. And then have a look for some 2013 xms. It's more than a 10-1 ratio and that's if you can even find a Xm on there for sale.

LOL. You must sled in a pretty small secluded area. Good sled for the Greystokes, but they ain't mountains. Lol.
The Pro is hands down the most capable mountain sled, and all your horror stories re thePro, BS, mostly Internet crap. This year the 14. cat is working really well also, the XM, basically a skinny tippy XP with a great engine.
This year, all 3 have lots of redeeming qualities, the $ 2 k more you pay for the Doo, gotta question that, and the 4 year warranty, I think lots of folks are gonna be really disappointed when the claims start getting submitted. It's already started with the clawback to 1 year on any sno check not taken by original checker.
Kinda seems like so far this year the more experienced serious mountain riders are favoring the Pro, and the newer more inexperienced riders are drinking the doolaide.
Another big factor seems to be to get a friendly boost kit on a Doo ur probably looking at $ 8500 - $10 k, the Pro seems like a good kit is around $ 5500 to $7000. Combine that with the $ 2 grand higher purchase price, makes a big difference.

 

[carlc]

I had to laugh at a post in the first page. A guy said doo fold when you hit a stump. Haha. Well I'd agree there. I would assume everything is going to fold when you hit a stump.

This post comes down to where you ride and what you ride. Some guys here come on and say we love the cats. They live on the flats. Manitoba Ontario and sask. I love the looks of the cats and agree there motors are good but here in BC you just don't see allot of them. There heavy and not functional for deep fluffy powder. The pros do sell yes and guys will buy them especially if they have a dealer close to them that's really good to them and I do to blame them. Having a dealer that will fix your sled for you overnight so you can ride again the next day when there is 3 feet of fresh goes along way instead if a dealer telling you sorry bud well have your sled back to you in 2 weeks and you miss 4 blue bird powder dAys that are worth there weight in gold to a sled head. But you put all dealers equal side by side and you live in the mountains you ride a doo. There by far best fit and finish. Most reliable and best in the mountains. Some guys will go for the pros but there looking to save 1500 bucks on the original purchase price not realizing they need a pipe programmer and clutch kit to make it compare to a doo and there A arms fall apart at the seems when you do a few drops or hit jumps. Most dealers around here stood behind there customers and replaced all the broken a arms and I know Polaris did t want to stand behind it until after the 500 one came in and I still hear stories from some guys that had to come out of pocket to fix there's. So shame on the dealers and Polaris for leaving those guys hung out to dry and good for you dealers that stood behind your customers and replaced there customers a arms for them without question.

We ride in the mountains here so I can only speak for mountiAn riding. Last year I put over 4000 km total and spent time on all 3 sleds. The Polaris feels wierd because you can't get your feet far enough under the foot wells to feel in control. But it is a good sled and did work well. The a arms came apart on it on my 2 nd day. The glue was not glued all the way around the joint and it came apart from regular wear and tear. I ride the hell out of the doo and couldn't faze it. Never burn a belt all yeAr and ran like a clock. We had tons of belt problems with the cats. There heavy and didn't climb or outperform any of the others. There definatley in last place for mountain powder riding. Again The pros are good but you can't sacrifice weight in a sled to the point were guys are breaking apart a arms and missing days on the hill and having to battle with dealer and the company for wArrant issues when you only have a designated Amount of riding time in a year and your losing days because of a cheap manufacture defect and Polaris is now seeing the effects of that this year in lost sales and guys going over to skidoo.

More and more guys have now gone to the doo around our territory. They offer a unbeatable mountain sled at the top of the industry in all aspects with a 4 yeR warranty which is why they are slowly taking over. If you think I'm wrong go I to kijiji and look at used sleds for sale in BC Alberta. Count the number of 2013 pros that are for sale and what there selling for. And then have a look for some 2013 xms. It's more than a 10-1 ratio and that's if you can even find a Xm on there for sale.

Come to MT and tell me cats can't mountain ride. It's guys like you who are either going to be extremely surprised by the cats this year or too f@&$in cocky to realize that they do work. Just you wait



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[summ8rmk]

I had to laugh at a post in the first page. A guy said doo fold when you hit a stump. Haha. Well I'd agree there. I would assume everything is going to fold when you hit a stump.
This post comes down to where you ride and what you ride. Some guys here come on and say we love the cats. They live on the flats. Manitoba Ontario and sask. I love the looks of the cats and agree there motors are good but here in BC you just don't see allot of them. There heavy and not functional for deep fluffy powder. The pros do sell yes and guys will buy them especially if they have a dealer close to them that's really good to them and I do to blame them. Having a dealer that will fix your sled for you overnight so you can ride again the next day when there is 3 feet of fresh goes along way instead if a dealer telling you sorry bud well have your sled back to you in 2 weeks and you miss 4 blue bird powder dAys that are worth there weight in gold to a sled head. But you put all dealers equal side by side and you live in the mountains you ride a doo. There by far best fit and finish. Most reliable and best in the mountains. Some guys will go for the pros but there looking to save 1500 bucks on the original purchase price not realizing they need a pipe programmer and clutch kit to make it compare to a doo and there A arms fall apart at the seems when you do a few drops or hit jumps. Most dealers around here stood behind there customers and replaced all the broken a arms and I know Polaris did t want to stand behind it until after the 500 one came in and I still hear stories from some guys that had to come out of pocket to fix there's. So shame on the dealers and Polaris for leaving those guys hung out to dry and good for you dealers that stood behind your customers and replaced there customers a arms for them without question.
We ride in the mountains here so I can only speak for mountiAn riding. Last year I put over 4000 km total and spent time on all 3 sleds. The Polaris feels wierd because you can't get your feet far enough under the foot wells to feel in control. But it is a good sled and did work well. The a arms came apart on it on my 2 nd day. The glue was not glued all the way around the joint and it came apart from regular wear and tear. I ride the hell out of the doo and couldn't faze it. Never burn a belt all yeAr and ran like a clock. We had tons of belt problems with the cats. There heavy and didn't climb or outperform any of the others. There definatley in last place for mountain powder riding. Again The pros are good but you can't sacrifice weight in a sled to the point were guys are breaking apart a arms and missing days on the hill and having to battle with dealer and the company for wArrant issues when you only have a designated Amount of riding time in a year and your losing days because of a cheap manufacture defect and Polaris is now seeing the effects of that this year in lost sales and guys going over to skidoo.
More and more guys have now gone to the doo around our territory. They offer a unbeatable mountain sled at the top of the industry in all aspects with a 4 yeR warranty which is why they are slowly taking over. If you think I'm wrong go I to kijiji and look at used sleds for sale in BC Alberta. Count the number of 2013 pros that are for sale and what there selling for. And then have a look for some 2013 xms. It's more than a 10-1 ratio and that's if you can even find a Xm on there for sale.

Thats funny.
The cat and doo weigh the same. So if the cat is a heavy pig so is the doo. I for one am very glad that cat made the proclimb. I think its the best all around sled. Its the only mountain sled that also loves the trail. The summit is the worst on the trail and from what i see, on the hills too. Although I will agree doo does have the best fit and finish.

 

[M8onEdge]

To the original thread, I don't see anything inherently wrong with the proclimb chassis. It rolls into a carve easier than any of the other sleds and holds a more stable line. It clearly won't hold the sidehills the Pro will, but the XM is unpredictable and wants to climb. The rollout of the '12 proclimb was obviously bothched with clutching issues. Hopefully a manufacturer with Cat's history regrets that at least. Adding weight in a competitive industry! That was stupid and their bottom line has suffered as it should. Clearly two years is too long to address the basic issues and they shouldn't be rewarded by biased consumers. Hopefully they learned something.

As to the Doo worship, I owned an XM last year. I'm now riding a '14 cat because I found the thing awkward and squirrely - as did everyone who rode it except the doo worshippers. Good in the deep powder, but not enjoyable in lower snow or spring conditions. It did not out perform the Pro's I ride with. On top of that, in spite of the supposed reliability I spent half the winter in "limp" mode and the dealer and Doo couldn't fix it. Who cares about "fit and finish" if the thing won't run? Having owned '09 m8, '10 m8, 11 Pro, '13 XM and now '14 cat I agree with the posters that conclude the Pro is the best overall mountain sled. I'm riding a cat because it's darn close and Cat reliability has been what a consumer should get for the money.

 

[sketch96]

I hae to agree that the pro is probably the best mountan chassis ever built, its the motor that has been the weakest link.

The doo in my opinion has the most advanced 2 stoke motor in the industry but is still not quite on par with the reliability of the suzuki 800.

The doo xm to me and the guys I ride with just doesnt feel stable when compared with the pro or the proclimb. To me if you have to keep narrowing the front end to get it to roll over easier, is just a band aid. That and I have passed a few xm's on the trail broken rear suspensions. Why do you have to keep moving further forward to get a sled to handle right also? the doo was already the most rider forward chassis on the market....probably because it wants to lift the front end too much and it wants to point uphill on a sidehill situation.

Not the sled of choice for mountain riding in the area I am in. I have a 14 cat for this year and just came of a 12 pro. So far the cat is good but not as good in the handling balance areas as the pro. The motor on the other hand is awesome. I like the fact that i dont have to worry about blowing another motor like I did with the polars, and it pulls hard! The 2.6 162 track is pretty sweet also.

The biggest change with the cat from the pro was the fox air shocks.......rides soooo much better on the trails. I gave up some handling in the mountains for a better trail ride ad better motor.

NOW if polaris were to put that suzuki motor into their chassis.......Thats the sled I would be riding hands down!!!! JMO!

 

[carlc]

Polaris will never get the Suzuki built cat engine. That engine is patented by cat and subbed to Suzuki to be built. That engine will never end up in another brand sled, except maybe a yammy!


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[Xrider]

Polaris will never get the Suzuki built cat engine. That engine is patented by cat and subbed to Suzuki to be built. That engine will never end up in another brand sled, except maybe a yammy!

But geez there's no dealer in Helena... if there was I'd for sure try a Cat. I have a '14 Doo but I'd ride either of the three...Polaris is a great sled too..... they all rip and there's really not that much difference.