Dedicated Snowbike?

[Hawkster]

I'm not sure how to reply to people wanting it to be a sled , maybe it's the constant comparison . When I'm asked out in the field my reply is it's a love hate relationship , pros and cons , it's not a sled .
I ride with sleds all the time , actually out ran a mtn viper across a lake . The worst thing to do is follow , they make their tracks I make mine .

 

[Chadx]

Hawkster, when you say that many keep wanting to make them into a sled, to what are you referring? A sled or a snowhawk is the last thing I want a factory snowbike to turn into, so just trying to understand? The request for more power or improved geometry? There could be improvements simply by the design not having to accommodate wheels or summer use. And not paying for all the stuff we take off and store because they have to be purchased as a bike. A ground up design would be great but definitely not a big fat pig. No interest wider, less nimble, or much heavier. Digging out a snowbike is easy. Want to keep weight off and keep it that way.

Fuel should all be on tunnel not up high. Quiet exhaust that still makes power. Tunnel cooler and no radiators. About the same width at the seat and between the legs as our bikes are now. If people just want a bit more power but no design change, then there are already options like NOS, turbos and engine builds. For a bit more weight, there are already more powerful bikes like 690/701. But really it's going to be a ground up design that will get me excited. Another arctic cat approach of mating an existing bike with a kit? Not so much. For that end result I'd much rather buy the bike brand and snowbike kit of my choice and build it myself. Purpose built for winter is what we are after.

 

[Chadx]

I ride with sleds all the time , actually out ran a mtn viper across a lake.

4 stroke Yamaha vipers are only 130hp at sea level. So getting 600cc class power out of that 1,049cc engine. I would expect your snowhawk to readily outrun it, especially considering how you refine and improve your rides.

 

[Hawkster]

So if a purpose build snow bike comes with a tunnel to put gas on than you have what your saying you don't want and that is a snowmobile .

A purpose build snowbike should have the least amount of a tunnel as possible . That alone will out perform any one of the snow dragging tunnel scooping tunnels .
The sleds are already proofing that by coming out with a shorter tunnel on a longer skid and the other guys are cutting off their new tunnels to put a shorter one on a brand new sled , not to mention removable flaps . But the bike kits can't or won't from pure pressure of the purchasers .

I should of never mentioned the viper thing but you need to at least throw a leg over one and if possible and if you really want an adrenaline buzz try a sidewinder .
We're talking about the same thing but for some reason disagreeing .

 

[Chadx]

I'll agree to disagree that having a tunnel on a snowbike makes it a snowmobile. Ha. Though I do agree that not having a tunnel or a tunnel that is more open or higher will give a tiny bit more performance, particularly as paddle lengths gets longer. If there was a snowbike design with little or no tunnel that didn't keep me and the bike wet and snowcovered the entire day, I'd be open to it. It is a convenient place to put gas/storage, but a ground up design could care for that in other ways. It doesn't take much room to have a 5 or 6 gallon gas tank someplace different than high on the bike like typical dirtbikes and since gas is one of the denser things we carry on a snowbike, gas tank placement should be one of the considerations in a ground-up design. But I'll disagree that a new snowbike design, that retains a tunnel, is asking for a snowmobile as that is a very minor impact from an overall design perspective plus is what we currently have on the machines we call snowbikes, so it's not changing from what we have now.

I've been on the Yamaha 1,049cc sleds and I do like the way four stroke sleds pull. No slouches. I was simply pointing out they are a 130hp machine so they are closer to a 600 class sled (typically 120 - 125) that an 800 class sled (160+). Have been on a turbo nytro but not a sidewinder. Agreed that a turbo 4 stroke is a thing to experience...from a hp perspective anyway.

 

[Hawkster]

Quite the conversation the tunnel has pretty much been a stickler from the beginning . I think it was mototrax that did make a shorter tunnel one season because they knew the advantage it offered but majority rule eliminated that . A simple very plyable snow flap would have fixed the problem and maybe all the kits would of had it by now . What goes around comes around , The new Doos with the shorter tunnels and minimal flap is a big hit . It's going to take a combination of out of the box thinking otherwise . A rolled frame would make a good reservoir , Don't understand why tank , bar and fork bags are replaced by a box /bag on the tunnel as if the rear needs more weight when the front at times is worthless . good example I think is an inexperienced one ski rider with a back pack , the weight of the pack completely throws off the balance and exhausts them so the same would go for mounting on the back even for an experienced rider . Sledders do the same thing , when the snows good the wise drop the fuel .

The manufacturers are listening but at times listening to the wrong people .

I actually made a pivoting frame for a freight sled so when I pulled it I could still lean and the freight stayed true . In the trees the freighter pushed like a mother but in the open it did its job .
Thought about doing the same with what would look like a torpedo that could freely spin , hardcore , for moto cans and other necessities .

Thank you for the conversations .

 

[Chadx]

Agreed! Very fun to theorize, share experience and ideas, and daydream about new designs and options for a factory snowbike. There are so many different ways it could go. No doubt whatever it is, many will be disappointed and many will be thrilled. Ha.

I'm not worried about having a snowflap for roost going backwards, but curious on design ideas that would both prevent snow from showering the rider and bike all day but still not create-track rotation resistance from both snow and air pressure. Maybe a tunnel or guard that is much taller/raised off the track? I'd personally like it to retain some type of frame extending backwards which facilitates getting unstuck when the track is buries. Not sure what techniques one would use if there is no tunnel or grab handles whatsoever. If a guard or tunnel was very high, that would be less impactful to the track rotation, still block snow, and the higher it is, the better the grab handle for getting unstuck or dragging it around.

How about ideas for gas tank or storage? Again, keeping all that weight low and centralized. Weight way back on a tunnel is not ideal, but on the front of the tunnel or frame is centralized and fairly low and a great spot for the weight to be located. Engine and gas tank centralized and low (though we also have to keep in mind that, as be burn fuel, that weight goes away where engine and storage items weight stays the same throughout the day). Not sure where that leaves room for storage. My first reaction is that I'd rather have weight down on the tunnel, even if further back, then up high on bars or where the gas tank normally would be. Although, most storage items are fairly light compared to fuel, so maybe it is reasonable to trade the bikes gas tank area for a storage area. Having a nice storage box right there, where the gas tank would normally be, for water bottles or bladder would could be kept from freezing by from engine heat up. Most other items, except for tools, are fairly light; food, spare gloves/goggles, electronics, etc. And it would be a handy spot if you could access it without getting off the bike. Maybe have a different, small storage area lower and centrally located (front of tunnel or somewhere in frame) for the very dense, heavy items like tools and that might be a good compromise.

For transmission, I'm not committed to manual transmission or CVT. Shifting, to me, is neither super fun nor a big chore; it's just regular ol' riding. Have powersports machines that are both types, both are so natural and automatic that I don't have a preference for retaining a manual transmission or going with some type of automatic shifting or a CVT. But most CVT designs are so bulky and wide and that is something I wouldn't want. Well, I guess it depends on placement and design. At the modest power outputs that we'd expect with a bike (sub-100hp), I wonder if a vary narrow and efficient CVT could be developed. The efficiency would need to be addressed as development of a more powerful engine (one or two cylinders, two or four stroke, whatever it is) only to have that power burned in an inefficient transmission type is pointless. The comment earlier about a CVT being more accessible for more people is spot on as any manufacturer that does R&D and brings something to market will be thinking about accessibility and a manual transmission would immediately lop off and good chunk of their target customers.

 

[eric82930]

Mass centralization is always better but on a conversion the center of gravity is always too far forward so putting all the gas back on the tunnel is better than forward on the tunnel.
I tried no tunnel or snow flap on one of my builds and never do it again. Just too much snow goes down my neck. Lifting the back when stuck wasn't bad though just lift from the rear axle.

 

[Hawkster]

One of the manufactures at the X games kind of gave away the shortening of the tunnel with a cheesey flap , that only took how many years ?
I made my own back yard tail section but at least I have a tail/brake light .

Your absolutely correct about not pleasing everybody , I want nimble , foot pressure , head nod response . To have the creature comforts that some want I would consider that a freighting machine . It took years also before the manufactures started using curved tracks and I think most of it had to do with the consumers .

A hard water proof container strapped to the forks works great , enough tools to tear the machine down to the ground . The weight of the fuel is a big deal , top heavy bikes like the big euros are not for novice riders .

A new machine has to have an open minded team that looks at what's out there . Brand loyalty at times has nothing to do with what the consumer wants .

Everyone has a different riding style , changing conditions , locations and time they put on a machine .

 

[powdermuncher]

How about someone building a 600 cc sled engine with a six speed gearbox with a paddle shifter done.

As soon as that would hit the showroom floor Mt sled sales would be dead--not only do they make a **** tone of money of track kits and the dealers selling that and a bike.

If it could come close to rival a sled in speed and power it would spell the death of Mountain sleds as we know them and the beginning of a new era.

 

[gdriscoll]

How about someone building a 600 cc sled engine with a six speed gearbox with a paddle shifter done.

As soon as that would hit the showroom floor Mt sled sales would be dead--not only do they make a **** tone of money of track kits and the dealers selling that and a bike.

If it could come close to rival a sled in speed and power it would spell the death of Mountain sleds as we know them and the beginning of a new era.

WHERE

 

[gdriscoll]

Where would put the front drivers If you were not limited by the frame.? Do you think the track is in the best place on a snow bike? What do you think is the best head angle for the frame.?

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

Well 7 years of beating this subject to death and no one has built a good snow bike. Not even any close calls.

4 stokes have no place in the snow, that has never changed. YAMAHA proved that to the world.
Cant be toooo light.
Agricultural cvt's have no place on the snow..........well ok cheap for the sled mfg. Bad technology for 15 years.
Heavy forks need to go, real bad band aid for now.
80 hp two stroke would be plenty..........of course there is no top end hp number for many.

Look around, all the technology is here, needs no new development:
paddle shift/full auto transmissions
powerful two stroke engines
mig welder to build a frame
10,000 shock combinations for sale
comfortable seats
handlbars
your choice of suspension style
tracks are now better than any kit

what there is not is a MARKET !

 

[David24]

Well 7 years of beating this subject to death and no one has built a good snow bike. Not even any close calls.

4 stokes have no place in the snow, that has never changed. YAMAHA proved that to the world.
Cant be toooo light.
Agricultural cvt's have no place on the snow..........well ok cheap for the sled mfg. Bad technology for 15 years.
Heavy forks need to go, real bad band aid for now.
80 hp two stroke would be plenty..........of course there is no top end hp number for many.

Look around, all the technology is here, needs no new development:
paddle shift/full auto transmissions
powerful two stroke engines
mig welder to build a frame
10,000 shock combinations for sale
comfortable seats
handlbars
your choice of suspension style
tracks are now better than any kit

what there is not is a MARKET !

 

[David24]

It pretty simple. There is no way to double the horsepower of a snow bike and not double the fuel consumption! Not to mention a much heavier and bulky twin cylinder engine. In stead of Carrring 4 or 5 gallons of fuel now your carring 10 gallons like a sled. If your cool with a fully fueled machine weighing 80 plus pounds more than a snow bike, there’s your answer. I’ve owned and rode snowhawks. A basic snow bike setup is a dream compared to a hawk.

 

[needpowder]

Exactly. I am pretty goddamn happy with my Snowbike.Could it be a little better.. of course. Is it way better than riding a sled in steep ass technical terrain that i ride? Absolutely.

 

[Hawkster]

Please leave the only turn key legal one ski out of the bashing , some can ride it some can't . It's also funny because that picture above is my better half standing along her ride and she really gets a kick out of men complaining how difficult it is to ride As long as your happy riding a bike kit congrats , its a great machine for those limited to certain riding areas .

 

[NEWDUCK]

Pretty simple solution to no snowflap/tunnel. Mines a bit bulky but it works so I just stuck with it. As far as extra gas storage I just put a older ski doo gas caddy under my seat and strap it down.
The driver to foot placement works extremly well with this hawk set up. I feel like the bikes pushed me everywhere I went because there is so much track behind you. But im sure with time I would of gotten used to it.

Its all about who and where you ride. If I dropped one of you guys onto one of our modded hawks and took you up with us youd have a blast. And same goes if I rode a bike with any of you in your home terrain. You cant deny the ad boivn guys were actaully pretty smart. They just didnt take it to the next level it needed to be.

I bet within the next couple of years I hang the hawk on the wall next to the snorunner and convert to something else. Time will tell....

 

[eric82930]

Yes it totally depends on where you like to ride. Single ski machines tend to be less advantageous in open/fast terrain. One of the reasons the snow hawk never got popular is because it's almost too fast and wild for the really tight trees so it's forte leans more towards fast open terrain. It was able to hold a side hilling advantage 10 years ago but todays sleds are so much better it's hard to see any advantage to a fast one ski machine, in the open faster terrain a sled is now a better choice.

It kind of seems like the initial snow bike converts were serious dirt bikers who enjoyed riding the places sleds can't easily go. Now I'm seeing the sport is becoming popular enough that more recent converts aren't as serious or aggressive. They won't ride in the trees unless they are following me. They really would be better off on a sled.

 

[Hawkster]

So true , I want the snowbike to evolve to a machine that can hit triple digit numbers that I'm accustomed to , the profile pic is clocking somewhere between fourty and fifty and obviously one handed I'm not even pushing it . It's old school and built as tough as a dirt bike in it's natural form . I quit keeping mileage several years back around 20,000 , same older skid same forks bumped to a modded 800 with a 154 2.5 peak and multiple modern one skis . Only reason I'm still riding it is because there still isn't a machine that does what I want .

The new sleds are so close that the snowbikes might do the same thing as the Hawks . Yamaha blew the doors off the two strokes in the arena after the first season of being ridiculed and laughed at than the manufactures started screaming foul , The solution was to rebuild arena tracks that gave the 2 strokes an advantage or should I say a chance because the way they designed the tracks for two strokes previously the thumpers ate up and left them nothing to grab on to hot on the pipe . Camless four strokes will once again change the playing field . One of the two strokes already injects non premix gas on top of the pistons .

The Snow Hawk was never designed to do what most of us Hawk riders have converted them to , mine is still the stock frame . It was designed for it's own class of racing , problem was most could not ride it . It beat the crap out of me and had my share of being laughed at but I knew what possibilities it had . I've seen dirt bikers throw a leg over it and figure out quickly that the throttle does the steering and other dirt bikers that I've had to go retrieve the machine because that concept does not compute and the first comments they both have is the weight . I started on a dirt bike and when the 80's superbikes made the scene I never looked back , for me dirt bikes hurt . I will try to ride anything I can crawl into or throw a leg over . I've been around equipment my whole life .

As long as everyone is happy with their bikes it doesn't matter , I just have to accept that the snowbike had severely hampered what could of been the next generation one ski .