Dealers checking for ethanol fuel on engine failures.

[Reg2view]

Flagrant facts and opinions...

The resistor is not a '91' resister, it's for 10% or less ethanol. Big difference. All the resistor does is add 5% fuel. Adding more fuel when higher octane is needed isn't going to help much.

Poo states that it can run 87, but 91 is recommended. At least that's what my sticker said before I peeled it off. Kinda hard to skate this one if you take the time to write a letter.

No way will anyone be able to 'prove' what the fuel octane is, at least not casually. Variable compression testers are not hanging around ebay. Especially not a dealer, or poo. Just nonsense. Next, they'll try to tell you they have a trained beagle to detect non-premium. Makes about as much sense.

Finally, if this came/comes from a dealer, the dealer is either ignorant or corrupt. Neither is good for your sled. Find another dealer. I could see some ignorant poo rep saying this to a dealer, and an ignorant dealer repeating it. Start reading paragraph over.

 

[Ski-Dont89]

Btw... if it says "87" on the tank... and you're running more than that... who's the stupid one?

Straight out of the Polaris service manual

Recommended Fuel Octane: 91 (Non-Oxygenated)

who's the stupid one again?

 

[CO 2.0]

Straight out of the Polaris service manual

Recommended Fuel Octane: 91 (Non-Oxygenated)

who's the stupid one again?

You took his comment the wrong way, calm down. He was just pointing out that it's stupid to run more octane than what's required by the manufacturer. He doesn't even own a Polaris so what it says on the tank or the manual means nothing to him. This is just another way for Polaris to deny warranties, plain and simple. I've been through the ringer with Polaris myself on engine warranties, so I know all too well the crap they try to pull to deny a warranty claim. This ethanol testing BS just adds fuel to the fire for their loyal customers.

 

[backcountryislife]

Straight out of the Polaris service manual

Recommended Fuel Octane: 91 (Non-Oxygenated)

who's the stupid one again?

Sorry, I was basing the comment on what was said above.

Like CO 2.0 said though, that's all I was getting at.

Someone said that 87 was required, then someone else said it was "stupid" to not run "the good stuff"... well, the "good stuff" costs you power & response, so you want to stay as close as you can to the threshold SAFELY without having an issue.

Unfortunately, I left my service manual at home, I'll bring it next time I talk about a sled I don't know much about.

Point still stands though, why in the world is this even an issue? I just don't see why we even have to talk about it... because with the other brands... we don't, so there's something simple that they're missing that they just need to catch up with.

 

[mountainhorse]

To be clear here....as Super Dave3 said above

THIS IS NOT AN OCTANE ISSUE BY POLARIS
... IT IS STRICTLY A TEST FOR ETHANOL CONTENT AND WATER IN THE GAS


If you have bad gas with water or too much alcohol in it... that is not Polaris' fault nor should they be on the hook for a motor meltdown.

I have tested different E-10 gas around the country as little as 6% to over 25% ethanol content in the gas... with the higher ethanol levels comes an increased chance of moisture corruption of the fuel.

That CAN and DOES wreak havoc with the engine, regardless of the brand...especially when the fuel carries the lubrication for the motor.

Cat will be looking for this too as well as companies that make lawn mowers, chainsaws and any thing else that is not designed to work on this stuff.

Currently there are ZERO "Flex Fuel" mountain sleds out there... and none of the the sleds that I know of have a fuel system that removes water. Fuel injection systems don't work well when rust can corrupt the system... and heck, the E-TEC's have even tighter tolerance in the DFI components.

Blame the Ethanol fuel industry, their lobbyists, the PAC's and the politicians they have in their back pocket for this problem...they are the "pushers" here with the ethanol propaganda... not the greenies (for once), they only drank the Kool-Aid... they didn't make it.

I live in California... which has some of the most extreme environmental regs in our country... the Calif. Air Resources board is actually petitioning the EPA to have the ethanol REMOVED from the fuel.

treehugger.com: In what would certainly be a huge blow to the US' formidable corn-ethanol industry, the California Air Resources Board is readying a report that says ethanol is worse than oil in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. According to the Daily Climate, the California regulators are prepared to go as far as to declare that biofuels cannot help the state fight climate change--could this be the beginning of the end for ethanol?

www.treehugger.com/files/2009/04/ethanol-worse-than-oil-california.php

Greed wins every time.

 

[mountainhorse]

If the other sled brands don't have a policy in place, yet...They soon will as bad fuel is not compatible with ANY sled.

I don't think that anyone on here will argue that we now have a higher chance of getting bad fuel from a pump than we have ever had.

E-10 is not a problem for Polaris, heck... even E-15... but I'd bet that E-25 or lots of water will be.

IMO...Be extremely careful about how you fuel your sleds, how much moisture can be absorbed or let fall in there when fueling in the field and check your tank often.

Buy a test kit so you KNOW FOR A FACT what you are putting into your sled.

 

[snowmobiler]

maybe you should get a life.

...........

 

[bhrider]

us skidoo owners dont have to worry about this stuff.

I've heard they also have great clutches too.

 

[mountainhorse]

Stop it right here....

STOP THE BASHING ON THE OTHER MEMBERS...

I will simply delte any posts on this thread that keep going down this road.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

The pro I rode last year had the deto light come on mutiple times with the ethanol resistor in it on a cold day. I put 87 octane 10% ethanol in it when it did this. This was on long wide open runs and the engine was overreving slightly. At 8000+ ft that most everyone rides at out west I would think that 91 would be overkill with the 91 octane resistor. Either way, this is why I went 4 stroke and am not coming back. Also why would a guy put 87 in if they knew they had the 91 resistor in it. I also didn't find much gain to to 91 resistor. I would bet it was within 3 hp of the 87 resistor.

most likely it turned on the deto light due to being a little light on clutch weight, I have found while testing clutching that if you are a touch light on weights it can and will hit the rev limiter(and if it does it enough it will turn on the deto light)even though the guage may show only 8000 rpm(guage has a hard time keeping up it seems, but the computer doesnt)if you can get the sled to run right at 8250-8300 on the record feature the sled will really rip, but if you unload the track at all even at part throttle on the trail it can and does hit the limiter and bogs(if you hit the limiter hard enough not only will it turn on the det light but can go to limp mode)so far best overall rideability I have seen is keeping it under 8200 on the recorder and being carefull about backing off a bit when you get the track unloaded(8050 or so on the recorder has never triggered a det light or limp mode on me if you want a safe setting) as for octane..91 non ethanol recommended..87 non ethanol is minumum required(we only have 90 no ethanol here and when clutched for the right rpm..have never had any issues with hitting a det light(from sea level up to 8000 ft, yes we have mountains that start right at sealevel here)

 

[Woodsrider]

I agree with AKSNOWRIDER it is very easy to hit the rev limited and not show on the tack add a little clutch weight and see if trouble goes away.

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

Bummer for poo. Finally built a great sled and can't
Keep a motor alive. Why don't the other too have this problem? Yaya they all have probs but why is the poo motor always the problem?

 

[mountainhorse]

There have actually been a low % of motors in the new PRO RMK hat have had engine failures...the internet forums seem to magnify the #'s.... It is just nature... people rarely post "Hey , my new sled has no problems"..

DON'T GET ME WRONG... I'm not saying that people have not had problems with their sleds...But that is true for all models, all brands from chassis, to tracks, to drive train, to motors. It happens yes. Just recently, the AC-CFI4 800's have had big issues for many. The DC-CFI2 800's have not had that level of problems.

Here is MY take on it.

The ethanol test kits were sent out to be used on ALL engine failure claims for ANYTHING that is under warranty... not just the PRO RMK or 800cfi's...

Everything that has Warranty Coverage AND and engine failure that the customer is claiming under warranty these are used on. This would include All snowmobiles (Carbed, CFI, 550, 600, 700, 800 and yes even some 900 still have coverage)... all ATV's and Side by Side... All Victory.

The argument that "this is what comes out of the pump so every sled should be compatible with it" is kind of a lame-duck. Often people fill from jerry cans, water or other debris is in that can or it has been sitting too long.... or a gas station has a bad condensation problem, un serviced filter assembly at the pump or has been over blended with ethanol by the blender. There are just too much that is out of the control of the OEM.

Add this to people that store the sled in hot weather outdoors, full of new fuel that breaks down in a month and they have issues related to fuel quality.

I do not think that Polaris, Arctic Cat, Ski Doo or Yamaha should be on the hook for a warranty repair caused by this situation. They should have to prove that it was the fuel that caused the situation though.

Do a simple Google search "ethanol engine warranty" and see how many hit you come up with from cars, to boats, to leaf blowers... to snowmobiles.

The company is looking for BAD GAS...If the bad gas has caused the problem... and it is still in the machine... then the warranty coverage of the problem would be questioned.

Super Dave3...or GCMI ... any thoughts on this??

 

[WyoBoy1000]

This is all hearsay at this point and I hope it doesn't go down like some think, but I do think poo has an issue with the quality and design of the engine and should focus on that problem and not so much on how they can deny claims, it would be far better for them in the long run.

SO keep your fuel receipts and always run higher octane then needed (which will loose power) and run some sta-bil or enzyme to fortify the e-fuel. Then drain your tank every ride and you shouldn't have to worry. Then if it so happens it goes down because of fuel you can show proof what you are doing and see what happens, ( i would think they would cover it regardless) if they deny the claim then go back to the pump where you got the fuel and test it right out of the pump. Then when you find out you got 20% E-fuel out of the pump you can sue the gas station and refinery of the fuel for causing the failure in your sled. (GOOD LUCK with that)

I got a better idea, I'll keep buying cats/suzuki. If anyone gets denied and has a chassis with a junk motor I would love to have one to stuff a turbo cat in it.

 

[Anon]

I guess what we want to know is what will really happen next year when some engines will blow, but right now it is mostly speculation so .

What I really want to know, even if it's a little off subject, is what will happen if the gas you put in your sled caused you to lose warranty because what you got from the gas station was crap.

I cannot know directly from the station if there is ethanol and how much, I cannot know if they got leaky tanks and if water is contaminating the gas. Sure I could carry some testing equipement and check how much ethanol is in the gas, and also (I guess) know if it's got water. I may be lazy but I don't want to be roaming the gas stations every morning before riding, testing gas, maybe spending half an hour before finding something decent.

However, some guys tested it in my province and 3 out of 5 staions had more then 10% ethanol and it was inconsistant from time to time, so you can't find a 'safe' station. Kinda makes me wish oems came out with propane sleds.

Another off topic comment about Arctic cat, I agree that they got great engines, but I went to my local dealer to see their prices and when I asked why they were so expensive (about 1000$ more then the pro) the dealer told me it was because of the warranty. He said that they warrantied about any engine that blew up, he would replace z1 turbo engines that guys put hijacker boxes and added something like antifreeze to their gas thinking that they could now run high boost. I had a hard time beleiving him but he told me it was true and that he had replaced quite a few z1 engines.

 

[Trenchmaster]

I guess what we want to know is what will really happen next year when some engines will blow, but right now it is mostly speculation so .

What I really want to know, even if it's a little off subject, is what will happen if the gas you put in your sled caused you to lose warranty because what you got from the gas station was crap.
I cannot know directly from the station if there is ethanol and how much, I cannot know if they got leaky tanks and if water is contaminating the gas. Sure I could carry some testing equipement and check how much ethanol is in the gas, and also (I guess) know if it's got water. I may be lazy but I don't want to be roaming the gas stations every morning before riding, testing gas, maybe spending half an hour before finding something decent.

However, some guys tested it in my province and 3 out of 5 staions had more then 10% ethanol and it was inconsistant from time to time, so you can't find a 'safe' station. Kinda makes me wish oems came out with propane sleds.

Another off topic comment about Arctic cat, I agree that they got great engines, but I went to my local dealer to see their prices and when I asked why they were so expensive (about 1000$ more then the pro) the dealer told me it was because of the warranty. He said that they warrantied about any engine that blew up, he would replace z1 turbo engines that guys put hijacker boxes and added something like antifreeze to their gas thinking that they could now run high boost. I had a hard time beleiving him but he told me it was true and that he had replaced quite a few z1 engines.

Good question from Anon, if Polaris or any of the OEM's can't build a motor to deal with today's fuel quality, who's fault is it if your engine goes bad? Certainly should not be the consumers fault, should it??? I have had good luck with my Polaris sleds, the chassis are second to none, but my 08 Dragon is worthless because the engine issues scare everyone off. I bucked up for a new Pro chassis sled but still worry every time I'm out, is the engine is going to crater? Time for Polaris to step up to the plate for thier loyal customers and not play these games!!

Trenchmaster

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I have done warranty repair work on quite a few new polaris motors from the villages(about 90% caused by bad/old fuel since they barge all fuel in in the fall and by mid winter has started loosing noticable octane)I have only had polaris deny one..that motor not only had crappy gas, actual ice chunks in the tank(frozen water)but also the cylinder fins(fan cooled) were packed with small leaves from the customer riding it thru brush at the start of the season with only 6" of snow..every other motor polaris covered in full even when noting that the failure was caused by non warranty issues..I imagine polaris will still warranty most motors just as they have been doing, I think its more a matter of how good your dealer is at proper diagnosis and explanation to polaris followed up by proper repair ...I still think most of the pro engine failures you see out there are more related to crappy dealer prep/repairs then anything else...for those who havent ridden a properly prepped pro..they run/sound far differnt from what the dragon motors did..we have a dozen in our large riding group...3 in our close group..not one of them have had any kind of engine issue since new..and the 3 in our close group have never had any kind of warranty work period done on them..

 

[snowmobiler]

why would they fix some non warranty engine failures and not fix honest failures when people unknowingly get some bad gas.seems backwards.

 

[Yamadoo04]

You know the more i read this sounds like a fuel issue rather than a brand of whatever engine issue. Why dont we band together in out efforts to get this chitty gas out and go back to the real gas without the corn chit in it. Maybe Polaris is doing this by testing the gas and making a case against the fuel companies to show that this e-gas is horrible for everything we drive.

 

[mountainhorse]

A lot of this is from first of the season start up...

There is absolutely NO WAY I would run my sled with older gas in it...

And by older, I mean anything more than a month old...

2 months with gas treatment.

The fuel really does break down that fast (since radical reformulation in the last 2 or so years)

At the beginning of each season, regardless of the sled brand (If you goal is in fact to have a good rinning sled that does not leave you stranded).... Drain all the gas out of the tank...Replace the fuel filter, Prime the system and let it run for a bit to get the old gas out of the lines.... then start the sled..

See this thread for more of the tech discussion.

CFI FUEL SYSTEM, INJECTORS, STORAGE,PLUMBING AND OUR CRAPY FUEL THESE DAYS