CYLINDER HONING UPDATE
- Thread starter indydan
- Start date
I think the time delay is that Dan had to have the HG7 Stones custom made (big lead time) and then once he FINALLY had them, he had to clean out the honing station, switch to a special new honing oil, perfect the process and cost the job. (figure out how many cyls will be honed per set of stones and how often the 55 gallons of special oil needs to be changed)
I think we snowmobilers are an impatient bunch and want the best now... We sometimes fail to realize what it takes to deliver the product. I'm just happy that Dan continues to push the envelope despite our impatient ways.
indy Specialty extends previous customer warranty at no charge.
Just wanted to update the thread.
Any past Indy Specialty Long Rod Motor customers that do not have the HG7 designation machined on the intake side of the cylinder will receive an additional year of warranty at no charge if you send in your cylinder or complete motor for the New HG7 cylinder finish this process will be done at No-Charge.
In October of 2015 we improved our Honing finish process to Hg7 designation.
The results of torque plate honing with the new Hg7 has been more impressive then I could have ever imagined.
30 plus years in business I have never seen a better motor service life improvement & performance gain from what seems at the surface such a basic process.
This process is so advanced that piston service life is over twice as long over any other honing process on the market today.
What we have found is Number of Polaris EFI to current motors have suffered from a inconsistent cylinder finish problem that causes inconsistent
Service life from one motor to the next.
Why one motor of the same model runs for years and 1000's of miles and many others fail far short of that mark is mainly caused by aggressive cylinder finish that wears the piston prematurely causing extensive clearances.... Then piston slapping or rattling possibly breaks the cylinder or piston which then intern can cause massive damage to the crankcase when these parts fall into the bottom-end.
Indy Specialty is not in business to sell Pistons.
Indy Specialty's goal is to give our customers the best possible Snowmobile experience for the longest time possible without added expense so you have more time to ride.
All Indy Specialty 3 year warranty Long Rod motors run OEM Polaris Pistons.
indy Specialty doesn't use Polaris OEM Pistons for any other reason other then they are simply the Longest service life best performance with the best dependability of any piston that i have seen.
It's the most expensive piston with the worst retail margins of any other piston...... Meaning the highest retail price with the smallest discounts.
We have offered our top-end kits in the past several years with discounted aftermarket Pistons to offer the customer a less expensive option.......
This offering has come at a price to some of our customers..... The failure rate of aftermarket Pistons compared to kits with OEM Pistons is so disturbing that we have spent a lot of effort in 2016 thru 2017 pushing our customers to OEM Pistons if at all possible.
Most of the top end kits we sell with discount Pistons seem to be to people who are either selling or trading the sled in the near future.
Starting 4/6/2017 To protect our customers and the Indy Specialty name
We will no longer engrave the Indy Specialty Name into the cylinders if they have any type of aftermarket Pistons.
Only OEM Polaris piston Top-End kits will display ( Indy Specialty )
I will not be monitoring this thread, if you have any questions please call or email the shop.
support@indyspecialty.com
Thank you very much to all Indy Specialty customers !
I truely Value your business.
Dan
Just wanted to update the thread.
Any past Indy Specialty Long Rod Motor customers that do not have the HG7 designation machined on the intake side of the cylinder will receive an additional year of warranty at no charge if you send in your cylinder or complete motor for the New HG7 cylinder finish this process will be done at No-Charge.
In October of 2015 we improved our Honing finish process to Hg7 designation.
The results of torque plate honing with the new Hg7 has been more impressive then I could have ever imagined.
30 plus years in business I have never seen a better motor service life improvement & performance gain from what seems at the surface such a basic process.
This process is so advanced that piston service life is over twice as long over any other honing process on the market today.
What we have found is Number of Polaris EFI to current motors have suffered from a inconsistent cylinder finish problem that causes inconsistent
Service life from one motor to the next.
Why one motor of the same model runs for years and 1000's of miles and many others fail far short of that mark is mainly caused by aggressive cylinder finish that wears the piston prematurely causing extensive clearances.... Then piston slapping or rattling possibly breaks the cylinder or piston which then intern can cause massive damage to the crankcase when these parts fall into the bottom-end.
Indy Specialty is not in business to sell Pistons.
Indy Specialty's goal is to give our customers the best possible Snowmobile experience for the longest time possible without added expense so you have more time to ride.
All Indy Specialty 3 year warranty Long Rod motors run OEM Polaris Pistons.
indy Specialty doesn't use Polaris OEM Pistons for any other reason other then they are simply the Longest service life best performance with the best dependability of any piston that i have seen.
It's the most expensive piston with the worst retail margins of any other piston...... Meaning the highest retail price with the smallest discounts.
We have offered our top-end kits in the past several years with discounted aftermarket Pistons to offer the customer a less expensive option.......
This offering has come at a price to some of our customers..... The failure rate of aftermarket Pistons compared to kits with OEM Pistons is so disturbing that we have spent a lot of effort in 2016 thru 2017 pushing our customers to OEM Pistons if at all possible.
Most of the top end kits we sell with discount Pistons seem to be to people who are either selling or trading the sled in the near future.
Starting 4/6/2017 To protect our customers and the Indy Specialty name
We will no longer engrave the Indy Specialty Name into the cylinders if they have any type of aftermarket Pistons.
Only OEM Polaris piston Top-End kits will display ( Indy Specialty )
I will not be monitoring this thread, if you have any questions please call or email the shop.
support@indyspecialty.com
Thank you very much to all Indy Specialty customers !
I truely Value your business.
Dan
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this is all very interesting and it makes me want to ask a few more questions
(1) if millenium or us chrome renicasill a cylinder what is the industry standard for their finish of the new coating?
(2)are new cylinders from polaris substandard compared to skidoo cat yamarama?
no disrespect dan plateau honing makes good sense to me
(1) if millenium or us chrome renicasill a cylinder what is the industry standard for their finish of the new coating?
(2)are new cylinders from polaris substandard compared to skidoo cat yamarama?
no disrespect dan plateau honing makes good sense to me
Hi RUNE From Norway !! ����������
Great questions.
Industry standard ????
Well the Japs.... Yamaha for the most part has Been way ahead of Doo & Polais.
Doo really came around after the moly was coming off their rings... New smoother Finish has raised dependability in the 800 doo's.
Polaris really started getting the finishes better in 2013
As far as US Chrome goes ( REALLY REALLY good )
As far as millinium goes ( they have 2 different finishing abrasives ) you must request their fine finish abrasives or you are most likely going to get their default production abrasive and they are really really bad. Rings will be junk IN an EFI Polaris motor in under 500 miles.
Their fine abrasive in a Polaris EFI 1000 miles max rings and Pistons will be junk.
US chrome & Millennium both visited Indy Specialty this year.
Us Chrome brought a few cylinders they had honed to compare to Indy Specialty HG7 honed cylinder.....
They worked really hard and theirs were really good, as good or better then any OEM I have seen.
Millennium was not a honing visit it was a cylinder count visit and we were both making sure we were both happy with each other.
I use both US CHROME & Millennium
Indy Specialty ( Re-Hones all cylinders ) and torque plate hones all Mono Polaris & ski doo cylinders in custom fixtures.
From a consumer stand point if you were buying a cylinder direct from either the US Chrome final finish is lights out a better long life finish.
I personally would not run a millennium standard issue cylinder in a Polaris EFI motor unless Indy Specialty Re-Honed it. ( you must request their fine abrasive or you will not get it )
I do a lot of business with Millennium, and they do a lot of cylinders......they are a great company and they treat me well and take good care of Indy Specialty.
And you must consider the number they do and the price they charge.
Indy Specialty charges $225 just to hone a Polaris Mono block.
They would starve if they put the time in that we do to get the HG7 finish.
Make a mental note of this little tip and your plated motors will last MUCH longer.. ( if the fresh cylinder looks a bright whiteish yellow DON'T run it ) if it looks a much duller darker deep gold it's either factory or US chrome.
If it's a deep bark rich looking smooth as a baby's butt almost not cross hatch it is probably an HG7 cylinder
You can line up 10 cylinders on a bench and with only your eyes & finger nail pick out the cylinder that is the worst and the best in less then 1 minute I can promise you that.
The reason I know.... Is prior to 2015 Sunnen Inc sent Indy Specialty the wrong part number super abrasive and the cylinder finish results from these shoes destroyed several hundred sets of Pistons in a matter of a few hundred miles.
This was a bruttle warranty process for Indy Specialty, but turned out to be the biggest plated cylinder honing education Indy Specialty ever got.
Dan
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explaned in a logical way that should make sense to every one.
i cant help but wonder what grit stones my local shop used to hone my cylinders to get the recomended clearance- and how many new sets of new pistons and rings through them roughed up bores to get towards an F5 F7 finish if ever lol.
quick calculations and that F7 job of yours has got me interested...
i cant help but wonder what grit stones my local shop used to hone my cylinders to get the recomended clearance- and how many new sets of new pistons and rings through them roughed up bores to get towards an F5 F7 finish if ever lol.
quick calculations and that F7 job of yours has got me interested...
Dan,
I have an 800 monoblock with 3200 miles on it. Boregauge shows cylinders within spec and concentric. The bores now are worn smooth, definitely smoother than factory though I can still discern a slight crosshatch.
Ready now for a new piston set. Since the bores are smoother, which is what you advocate, is there any type of prep or dressing that you would recommend prior to dropping in the new pistons? What about deglazing? Since the bores are in great shape, would you still recommend getting the HG7 finish?
I have an 800 monoblock with 3200 miles on it. Boregauge shows cylinders within spec and concentric. The bores now are worn smooth, definitely smoother than factory though I can still discern a slight crosshatch.
Ready now for a new piston set. Since the bores are smoother, which is what you advocate, is there any type of prep or dressing that you would recommend prior to dropping in the new pistons? What about deglazing? Since the bores are in great shape, would you still recommend getting the HG7 finish?
indy dan i learnt alot about ring and honeing cly from this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAHpwkGuUE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAHpwkGuUE
ok, perfect question for the topic at hand.
I will layout the facts..... and then people can pick what works for you.... ( one must always take into account the sport we are in )
And the fact that time line and funds are always part of the equations.
if take apart and good running stock plated cylinder and it measures up good.
Then the first fact is.... The cylinder now is much better then it was from the factor because of the plateau effect of the first set of rings.
One better then that..... is imagine in your head that to some degree your cylinder was .... ( torque Plate plateau finished by the rings )
it will run better assembling it without ( touching it ) and i do mean do not touch it.
not rub it with anything, all you will do is make it worse.
HG7 is still better...... but not as much as you would thing..... what is better is the fact that the plating is actually cut a slight amount in the toque plate fixture so the cylinders are much truer as far as roundness.
Trust me..... everyone will be absolutely amazed what the motor will run like simply by NOT touching it,
Dan
Hey Mobax...... i will throw out and example that any of you can test to prove without a shadow of a doubt that this is correct.
all you have to is follow these sets.
Number 1 - take a stock sled with lets say 2000 miles on the top end.
- take a compression check at what ever elevation you live at ( write it down )
Number 2 - remove the cylinder, and remove the rings from each piston...... then install the rings into each cylinder they came from ( 1 ) at a time.... ** square the ring in the bore with a piston **
measure the ring end gap and log your info.
Done.
Now - save that exact compression guage and remember the elevation.
rebuild the top-end with the same OEM pistons.
run the same 2000 miles and repeat the process.
What you will find is as follows..........Mark my works ( this is a public forum and I will be tested on this.
Results - are going to be as follows.
#1 - The motor will be running better at 2nd tear down then it was the first time.
#2 - Throttle response will be better at 2nd tear down then the first ime.
#3 compression will be a touch higher.
# 4 ring end gap will be less.
( On our HG7 cylinder finish after 1200 miles in the mountains of basicly WOT throttle most of the time my personal measure of this motor was .0008 to .0009 tenths of a thousands wear...
You heard me correctly....under 1 thousands wear in what the customer told me 1200 to 1500 miles.
And the next amazing part of this is............was his leak down test.
Followed by what i told him next...........He said what do we do now?
I said its going back together the same way it came apart.....He ran it another season and he said his 2013 800 Pro runs the guts out of the new axys.
If he sees this thread i will let him post the leak down test because i do not remember the exact number and I do not want to get it wrong.
Dan
all you have to is follow these sets.
Number 1 - take a stock sled with lets say 2000 miles on the top end.
- take a compression check at what ever elevation you live at ( write it down )
Number 2 - remove the cylinder, and remove the rings from each piston...... then install the rings into each cylinder they came from ( 1 ) at a time.... ** square the ring in the bore with a piston **
measure the ring end gap and log your info.
Done.
Now - save that exact compression guage and remember the elevation.
rebuild the top-end with the same OEM pistons.
run the same 2000 miles and repeat the process.
What you will find is as follows..........Mark my works ( this is a public forum and I will be tested on this.
Results - are going to be as follows.
#1 - The motor will be running better at 2nd tear down then it was the first time.
#2 - Throttle response will be better at 2nd tear down then the first ime.
#3 compression will be a touch higher.
# 4 ring end gap will be less.
( On our HG7 cylinder finish after 1200 miles in the mountains of basicly WOT throttle most of the time my personal measure of this motor was .0008 to .0009 tenths of a thousands wear...
You heard me correctly....under 1 thousands wear in what the customer told me 1200 to 1500 miles.
And the next amazing part of this is............was his leak down test.
Followed by what i told him next...........He said what do we do now?
I said its going back together the same way it came apart.....He ran it another season and he said his 2013 800 Pro runs the guts out of the new axys.
If he sees this thread i will let him post the leak down test because i do not remember the exact number and I do not want to get it wrong.
Dan
AWESOME
Great example Redrider.....- Great video but not 100% in line with a plated cylinder.
one can not compare ( Cast cylinders to Plated ) or custom lite weight blocks that are made from new exotic materials that the rings actually can run on without plating.
( valley's ) for oil ** kind of **.............. created by the hone.... ( NO ) at least we can wish there was no valley's left by the hone.
Nicasil....Silicon carbide or similar plated cylinders are so porous on a roughness surface scale that even with no cross hatch they can hold plenty of oil to create ring seal & lubrication.
This is wear HG7 came from..... it is the never ending quest to remove all cross hatch and so far we have not been able to do that...
But we are getting closer...... HG7 finish is close to a mirror finish you really can't believe it until you see and feel it yourself.
HG8 finish is in the near future.
Dan
Great example Redrider.....- Great video but not 100% in line with a plated cylinder.
one can not compare ( Cast cylinders to Plated ) or custom lite weight blocks that are made from new exotic materials that the rings actually can run on without plating.
( valley's ) for oil ** kind of **.............. created by the hone.... ( NO ) at least we can wish there was no valley's left by the hone.
Nicasil....Silicon carbide or similar plated cylinders are so porous on a roughness surface scale that even with no cross hatch they can hold plenty of oil to create ring seal & lubrication.
This is wear HG7 came from..... it is the never ending quest to remove all cross hatch and so far we have not been able to do that...
But we are getting closer...... HG7 finish is close to a mirror finish you really can't believe it until you see and feel it yourself.
HG8 finish is in the near future.
Dan
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And the cylinder finish from dealers & auto machine shops across the country is not their fault........
The factory is really to blame from not getting the tech info out to the public on cylinder finish.......and the importance of it.
But then again maybe they don't want everyone to know.......this mystery sells lots of parts.
And just maybe i am giving the factory to much credit.... I am pretty sure they just started to figure this out not to very long ago.
** ( oh and one more thing ) ** I had several friends/customers call the shop and scold me about my spelling and using spell check..... ( I don't use spell check, and I am never going to. )
I damn near failed 10 grade english and a few other years........once I get in this modes I am to busy thinking about what i am doing to worry about spelling / grammer
or when to use ...... ( to, too, two ) or where, wear, woren, worn...... HeHeHe !!
and one worse then that..... i never proof read my posts i just hit spend.........that is damn frightening when days later you read a ( quote post ) and there is your art work for all to see ) and you can't edit that chit !
I truly suck at spelling..........it is possible that i am the worst there is for my age.
Dan
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Great Thread!
Along the same lines, something that drives me NUTS is all the videos of people checking how much their piston "rocks" when the engine is stone cold. Then comes the inevitable "pistons are junk comment". The Engines run at a stabilized watertemp of 120-150*, the actual temps in the engine are higher than that. All you are seeing is the temperature of the water and the effectiveness of the cooling system removing heat from the water on your temp guage.
Run an engine in field to your normal operating temp and use a high quality temp gun to measure the temp of the cylinders/case. Remove the engine from the sled and cycle hot liquid through the engine until your engine is heat soaked and showing the same temp on the cyl/case as it was in the field. Dump the coolant just enough to pull the head. Repeat your piston rock "test". It will be significantly TIGHTER than it was cold.
Another point on why there is so much taper built into the piston is the factory is no longer pumping coolant through the bottom end (Fuel). Because there is no where near the coolant in the case as there was on older engines, the pistons are expanding more due to the higher heat loads. Flip a bigblock 800 piston over and notice the carbon spot on the piston under the crown, do the same on a 800 cfi, there is typically much larger carbon deposit under the crown. The carbon deposit is larger as the piston is hotter than previous years and the fuel/oil that does come in contact burns. Also notice the rod color of the CFI engines, a lot of heat gets into those rods compared to the older engines.
My final challenge to continue the scientific debate on this subject is send me your pistons. I have access to a NITON Anylazer that can X-ray the pistons and report what material is in every piston I scan. I have some 11-12 OEM pistons to scan as well as some SPI's. I need the following pistons to do testing on.
13 Polaris
14 Polaris
15 Polaris
16 Polaris
RK Tek pistons
Wossner Pistons
Wiseco pistons
PRO-X Pistons
Please PM me if you have any of the pistons above and would like to further the development of this platform, knowledge is key to making these engines run to their best and I think its high time we get to the bottom of whats in our pistons.
Along the same lines, something that drives me NUTS is all the videos of people checking how much their piston "rocks" when the engine is stone cold. Then comes the inevitable "pistons are junk comment". The Engines run at a stabilized watertemp of 120-150*, the actual temps in the engine are higher than that. All you are seeing is the temperature of the water and the effectiveness of the cooling system removing heat from the water on your temp guage.
Run an engine in field to your normal operating temp and use a high quality temp gun to measure the temp of the cylinders/case. Remove the engine from the sled and cycle hot liquid through the engine until your engine is heat soaked and showing the same temp on the cyl/case as it was in the field. Dump the coolant just enough to pull the head. Repeat your piston rock "test". It will be significantly TIGHTER than it was cold.
Another point on why there is so much taper built into the piston is the factory is no longer pumping coolant through the bottom end (Fuel). Because there is no where near the coolant in the case as there was on older engines, the pistons are expanding more due to the higher heat loads. Flip a bigblock 800 piston over and notice the carbon spot on the piston under the crown, do the same on a 800 cfi, there is typically much larger carbon deposit under the crown. The carbon deposit is larger as the piston is hotter than previous years and the fuel/oil that does come in contact burns. Also notice the rod color of the CFI engines, a lot of heat gets into those rods compared to the older engines.
My final challenge to continue the scientific debate on this subject is send me your pistons. I have access to a NITON Anylazer that can X-ray the pistons and report what material is in every piston I scan. I have some 11-12 OEM pistons to scan as well as some SPI's. I need the following pistons to do testing on.
13 Polaris
14 Polaris
15 Polaris
16 Polaris
RK Tek pistons
Wossner Pistons
Wiseco pistons
PRO-X Pistons
Please PM me if you have any of the pistons above and would like to further the development of this platform, knowledge is key to making these engines run to their best and I think its high time we get to the bottom of whats in our pistons.
Anger, it would be interesting to see the base metal used on all the pistons.
would that test by chance show silicon content?
and as far as piston rock on a small block.....
If you take a Polaris 2000 thru 2005 800 Big Block head off and check it from the top piston rock....
Then do the same to a any 2008 thru 2017 800 dragon, Pro. or Axys
Both motors are built by the same company ( Domestic 800's )
** ( Brand New from the factory ) ** The small block Piston compared to the Big Block measurement at the top....
The small block piston is close to .010 thou smaller
Polaris did this on purpose..... They want it that way.
As mentioned by Anger.... If you take a brand new 2017 axys apart after just running it on a stand to clean out all the assembly lube....
you will see a piston that feels like its junk.
I have had many 2016 axys Rental RMK in the shop that have had over 4000 miles on the stock pistons.
Yes there are going to be a few motors that let loose early.... it happens with new cars, trucks, boats & so on.
The fact of the matter is it will happen less with a factory OEM piston then any other piston made by anyone.
Ean..... I thought you were going to thrash me about my spelling ??
Dan
would that test by chance show silicon content?
and as far as piston rock on a small block.....
If you take a Polaris 2000 thru 2005 800 Big Block head off and check it from the top piston rock....
Then do the same to a any 2008 thru 2017 800 dragon, Pro. or Axys
Both motors are built by the same company ( Domestic 800's )
** ( Brand New from the factory ) ** The small block Piston compared to the Big Block measurement at the top....
The small block piston is close to .010 thou smaller
Polaris did this on purpose..... They want it that way.
As mentioned by Anger.... If you take a brand new 2017 axys apart after just running it on a stand to clean out all the assembly lube....
you will see a piston that feels like its junk.
I have had many 2016 axys Rental RMK in the shop that have had over 4000 miles on the stock pistons.
Yes there are going to be a few motors that let loose early.... it happens with new cars, trucks, boats & so on.
The fact of the matter is it will happen less with a factory OEM piston then any other piston made by anyone.
Ean..... I thought you were going to thrash me about my spelling ??
Dan
Ok so Dan wrote me back, saying it really did not matter to much to him, but cryo before honing if he's to pick.
Lines up with my reading on cryo-treatment, makes the material "behave better" when machined.
RS
I have to say that Dan's threads about honing & OEM pistons are pretty much 2 of the best tech threads I've read on here in a long time. What even better is, no one got into a pissing match about what he's explaining to us.
THANK YOU DAN.
THANK YOU DAN.
