CYLINDER HONING UPDATE

[indydan]

Hello, sorry I do not get one here often enough.

I was over on HCS forum and Answered a question past customer had about piston scuffing and I thought I would post it here so everyone is on the same page:

His cylinder finish looks to aggressive, I asked Does the back or your cylinder show a ( HG5 Finish ) signification ?

If it does not you can send the cylinder in and we will update the finish and supply you with a new set of Pistons no-Charge.

Over the past few seasons we have been studing Plated cylinder finishes at a feverish pace.

We have found that cross hatch is the enemy, and all these fancy coating are trying to protect the pistons at break in and long afterwards......

Last year 02/01/2015 we went to a new HG5 cyl finish that is Engraved on all our cylinders.

This finish has changed Piston, Ring & Life break-in proceedures to degree we cannot hardly believe.

That being said, 10/15/2015 we Upgraded to HG7 Cylinder Finish which is a finish that far Surpasses any other finish available......even by the OEM's.

The by Product of Plated Cylinders is a follows:

They are very porous and even when polished like Chrome they have a better ability to hold Oil then a perfectly cross Hatched Cast Iron cylinder that has been plateau Honed.

And as far as Ring break in goes......Not to worry most new rings are lapped-in round and do not require break it. ( And can start out with synthetic oil no problem, As far as brands of oil I am leaning more towards factory oil with new electric oil pumps. No oil will save a piston from a cylinder that is to aggressive. ) Connecting rods and more of a concern with these new motors with dry cases.

What does this mean to the Polaris owner ?

1 - Piston Life increased past what was ever thought possible. I now list 10,000 Miles on Piston interval on my TMX Long Rod motor.

2 - Break-in..... Not needed anymore.
Warm it up to engine temp, Shut it off and let it heat soak for 15 minutes, then restart and drive slowly until thermostat temp is reached and then ride it like a Rental. If it has HG7 Cyl Finish & the new OEM Polaris Pistons you can't hurt it.

You can etch this in Stone:

If you ever see a cylinder with our New HG7 Finish, ( And you will know it's something special when you see it ) You have seen the Best cylinder finish in the Industry and Most riders will never need Pistons again.

How do I know you may ask ?

Simple, In the last 3 years I have warrantied more Pistons then Polaris probably has in the History of the sport because of a Honing company selling Indy Specialty the ( Wrong super Abrasives )

Abrasives the Techs said were correct for Plated application.

In the last 3 years We have learned more about plated cylinder finish honing then I have about any other motor improvement in the last 32 years ( Regarding Honing )

If anyone out there has a cylinder from Indy Specialty that doesn't say:

HG5 or HG7 Engraved on the back of the Mag-Side Cylinder, You can send it back for HG7 Torque Plate Honing You will not be able to believe the difference even when you Start it.

Please see the attached Photo below ( Plateau Honing ) The importance of this on a Cast Iron cylinder is important.

( Plateau Honing ) on a NiCad Plated cylinder is an absolute necessity !

The picture below shows what a Cast Iron cylinder looks like after correct Plateau Honing has been completed

And Plated cylinder will not just have the peaks polished off......95% created cross hatch will be gone>

Leaving a tremendously long flat surfaces for the Piston & Ring to guide on without wear.

A flat surface seen on a Cast Iron cylinder after break-in..........The problem with plated cylinders is this as follows:

Plated cylinders are far to hard to break in by an aluminum piston....The cylinder wears the piston & rings out long before it can get
the cylinder smooth enough.

It goes against what most engine builders believe ( me included for a long time ) ..........But.

Seeing little to No crossing is best........Cross hatch is the enemy of a plated cylinder.

Thank you.

IndyDan

 

[indydan]

Just for clarification ... and maybe I didn't read between the lines. Since my motor is sitting on the bench. It has not been fired since the HG5 finish was completed. Is it worth it to tear the top end off and send it up? I may need tear it off anyway and add a base gasket.

Whats the cost of going from 5 to 7? Also ball park turn around time?

Justin, just talked to Greg and he told me you are getting a Turbo.


You have 2008 head on there so you need to check the squish, the 2008 head & all 2009 thru 2015 heads are very close to the same compression ratio except the 08 has a little more squish clearance so we can shim it down farther for high elevation.


The HG5 Finish is Awesome and no need to tear the cyl off.


I took a chance and made some custom Plateau shoes I was hoping could Polish without hardly removing any material....... I got lucky 200 plus strokes in the Power stroke hone at 4 to 6 amps and it takes out less the 2 tenths of a Thou and looks like a mirror.... Exactly what I was looking for.


That being said........if you think you want the HG7 I will do it no problem.


Ohhhhh, 1 more thing I have Turbo domes if you need to lower the compression and touch, I have 3 different ones with different squish set-ups.


I can just machine up a stock head to fit the domes if you need them.




** ( HEY WINGNUT !! WHERE DID YOUR POST GO ? ) ** HaHaHa !! I quoted you before Greg told you to delete it !!


Dan

 

[BILTIT]

Very interesting, by the dates you posted i don't think i will have either of the HG5 or HG7. I will check it out!

Thanks for the update!

 

[Spaarky]

Sorry... the bat phone lit up, just as quickly as I posted. After the info Speedracer gave me, I didn't think you need to answer it twice. I am sure you talk faster than you type. Plus I didn't want to get into said spinny shiny go fast objects. Although it may have answered some questions that the other fanatics may have too.

Lets measure the squish and go from there, and not put the cart before the horse. I have the original head you sent last year too, when I was being medicated for TFS. The disease is terminal now...

I need a couple other things too. 3 in particular....

This new 7 finish is exciting. Good work!!!! So many people would be complacent, and say good enough. You just keep pushing for perfection!

 

[JUDGED]

Neat, You a fan of breaking sleds in hard?

 

[spt415]

Great information Dan. Thanks

 

[indydan]

Neat, You a fan of breaking sleds in hard?

Not normally, But with the cylinders this smooth as long as the motor has been heat soaked and the crankshaft is warmed up you can truly ride them like a rental.


This is how it use to be with the Old cast iron Motors, If you Plateau honed them you could ride them hard right away.




We saw this with Outboards, People would pull skiers with fresh rebuilds and once in awhile stick them or over heat them. after we Plateau honed the cylinders you could hit wide open the first time you drove them and we never had a problem.


The Plated cylinder rebuilds made shops paranoid about break in because pistons always seemed to scuff.


That's how this all came to be......


No Problem spt

 

[Lorduss]

What is the pricing for this work?

 

[indydan]

What is the pricing for this work?

Sorry for the delay, It has not been a common practice to Just ( Torque Fixture Hone ) so I am not sure about how to price it.


A lot depends on how long the new abrasives & polishing shoes last.


At this point I am estimating $175


Down the road it might be adjusted up or down a little time will tell, if it gets to be over whelming it will go up.

 

[GoBigParts]

What is the pricing for this work?

Just got off the phone with Dan. This is very time consuming job that only someone with the right knowledge and experience can do. I would say the price he quoted below is an absolute steel.

 

[Angermangement890]

I have 2 of the new HG7 honed cylinders sitting here, just by eye, you can see a noticable improvement in the cylinder finish compared to a brand new Polaris cylinder. If you run your finger through the bore, the difference in smoothness is stunning.

 

[HECKS]

Any pic's ?

 

[Angermangement890]

I finally was able to grab a stock 13-15 cyl that has not been run, honed, plated or touched in any way to compare against the HG7 Cylinder finish. I likewise went to the box that Dan sent my cylinders back in and grabbed one at random. Neither bore was treated in any special manner.

First up is the STOCK cylinder:









Now the HG7 Cylinder finish:









I realize that the pics are tough to discern a difference in the finish of the surface, running a finger through the bore is the best way to understand it. Best way I can describe it is the stock cyl feels like 3,000 grit and the HG7 feels like silk

Side by side:

 

[guidoxpress]

Sounds awesome.

So as for the pricing above, please clarify..$175 for the HG7 coating and that's if we send the cylinder in and get same in return? Or is it a swap (with core charge)?

And is this pricing for ANY sled motor in which we want to coat? I have a bunch of money pits sitting around


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[indydan]

Sounds awesome.

So as for the pricing above, please clarify..$175 for the HG7 coating and that's if we send the cylinder in and get same in return? Or is it a swap (with core charge)?

And is this pricing for ANY sled motor in which we want to coat? I have a bunch of money pits sitting around


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Good question Sean, The $175 price is for ( 2 cylinders of any kind that we have Torque Plates made up for Top & Bottom ) If we don't have plats its -$70 less.


HG7 only with No Torque Plates is $45 per cylinder plus $10 High Pressure
Jet spray washing.


Dan

 

[ghost rider]

Cylinder Honing

Was excited to read about the advancement in Indy Specialties HG5-7 cylinder honing. Being I had my LRTM motor recall done last January of 15 by Dan, that is until I saw the dates of the new HG5 finish being implemented 2/1/15. I was in this case a day (month) late and a dollar short on that revolution and the stamping on my cylinder verified that. My question is why did Indy Specialty wait until 10/28/15 to inform any of his customers of this development. If I would have known last spring/summer about it I would have sent my cylinders in to be upgraded.

Not trying to bash in any way, shape or form. Dan was standup to admit last season about his suppliers sending him inferior product. It is not easy to swallow your pride and admit that. And it cost Dan a fortune to make it right with his customers. But I guess my question in all of this is for the customers that don't have the upgraded honing like myself. Are we at higher risk for premature engine failure without HG5-7 finish? Or is it more that we have industry standard plating with an average motor life expectancy? Thanks Ghost Rider

 

[BILTIT]

Good question, I just sent my cyl in last week for the upgrade. Just in case. A little late but glad he is standing behind his product, not many do anymore.

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[rags319]

Help me here. What are torque plates.

 

[BILTIT]

A torque plate isn’t needed if you don’t want maximum performance from your engine. If you do care about performance, then a torque plate is always a good investment for any high-performance engine build. When the head and gasket are torqued to a block, the bores will naturally distort since they are hollow cylinders. This is even true with open deck blocks. A torque plate simulates the cylinder bore’s distortion, thus allowing the machine shop to hone the cylinders with the simulated distortion. Honing with a torque plate generally yields better ring seal, compression, and can reduce oil consumption. Using a torque plate with the same gasket that will be used during final assembly is also a good idea whenever possible. A different brand or head gasket model might distribute the sealing force around the cylinder in different locations and distort the cylinder differently. You also want to use the same studs or bolts that will be used during final assembly since different fasteners will have a different clamping force.

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[BILTIT]

It's a plate (or plates) that gets bolted to the cyl to simulate block/head bolt distortion.

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