Chrome Moly subframe replacement

[NM]

You could always include a fancy custom spindle for the same price as others.. I hate my fricken spindles..

Ya I hear ya. I don't hate the spindles as much as I hate the junk ball joints, heim joints, and bushings. hahaha

 

[scmurs]

Good idea NM.

I have one question though. The OEM subframe mounts both the upper and lower pivot ( rotational ) points of the a-arms parallel to each other. If I understand what you are doing on your subframe, the pivot points will no longer be parallel with each other ( left upper vs right upper a-arms and left lower vs right lower a-arms ). Would this result in any kind of bump steer as the suspension travels through it range of motion? In other words, will the toe setting on the skis stay parallel with each other through the suspension travel?

Scott

 

[NM]

Good idea NM.

I have one question though. The OEM subframe mounts both the upper and lower pivot ( rotational ) points of the a-arms parallel to each other. If I understand what you are doing on your subframe, the pivot points will no longer be parallel with each other ( left upper vs right upper a-arms and left lower vs right lower a-arms ). Would this result in any kind of bump steer as the suspension travels through it range of motion? In other words, will the toe setting on the skis stay parallel with each other through the suspension travel?

Scott

It would be very similar to the Polaris geometry, so will react in a similar way. There may be slight bump steer, but not likely enough to notice.

 

[Barcode]

Sound like a great idea, love to see some pictures. I like the idea of being able to use all stock parts on it.

 

[AKrider]

You should post this over on TY4stroke. The subframe is a good idea, I like the concept of changing the angles using the stock a-arms. Bump steer is a big issue on the Nytro and IMO, is the reason the sled is unpredictable.

 

[pylon]

are these going to all be one offs or will you be building a jig ? other after market sub frames fit like garbage. A really good idea though that id like to try

 

[SNWMBL]

I would be concerned with steering issues. The Skinz kit uses bent tie rods and your subframe would require the same thing. The steering radius will also be decreased as you'll hit the stops on the lower a-arms sooner.

It's a good idea, but you need to build prototype to see what other modifications will be needed.

 

[NM]

are these going to all be one offs or will you be building a jig ? other after market sub frames fit like garbage. A really good idea though that id like to try

They would be built in a jig. The fabricator's have two subframes right now that they have used for the basic layout.

 

[NM]

I would be concerned with steering issues. The Skinz kit uses bent tie rods and your subframe would require the same thing. The steering radius will also be decreased as you'll hit the stops on the lower a-arms sooner.

It's a good idea, but you need to build prototype to see what other modifications will be needed.

the stock a arms will work fine. There would be a decrease in turning radius, but it wouldn't be much.
From our experience, the ski's have more to do with the ability to steer than the actual radius. If the ski's won't turn, then radius makes no difference.
I tried a set of the new Yammie ski's last season, and really liked them in the pow, but they were the worst trail ski I ever had.

I agree that we should build some to see if there will be issues. We are just not sure if it would be worth the time and money invested.

We really like all of the feedback though.

 

[Barcode]

I think you have a winner here. New geometry for the front end and beefed up subframe. Id rather have a arm bend than my subframe, especially if they can be replaced by a stock part.

 

[SNWMBL]

I know the oem a-arms will work, but when you push them forward you need modified tie-rods. When skinz pushed the spindle forward they didn't make new tie rods for the fun of it. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but if you move the spindles forward as far as your planning, you will need tie rods that have the bend in them. Factory tie rods will not only be too short, but they'll hit the subframe and possibly even the lower shock mounts. Of course, this all depends on how far forward the spindles end up.

 

[OFT Racing]

I'll start off by saying I love the idea and it could be absolutely great improvements. Well worth the money if it does everything as planned (And I think it could). My question is why and how could you sell a product with no testing other than CAD? There is less than 100 in materials for a sub frame, even if there crude and just made to proper geometry's you could get all your bugs worked out without using customers money and have all answers to these questions. As to relating to a Polaris steering, they have a steering rack unlike the Nytro that mounts at a central location. You are changing a lot of geometry that the skinz kit is not by still pivoting in the same location. I can see using this thread to get a feel for the market but to put this out there with no real world testing I think is a poor decision. Since we have been comparing it to skinz, look how much testing they did over the last year before putting the kit out there. Another idea to test for cheap is mild steel. I just really feel something like this needs real world testing before a release to customers is even considered.

I love inovative thinking and think its a great idea. I just think the R&D needs to be done differently.

JMO

 

[AKrider]

I know the oem a-arms will work, but when you push them forward you need modified tie-rods. When skinz pushed the spindle forward they didn't make new tie rods for the fun of it. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but if you move the spindles forward as far as your planning, you will need tie rods that have the bend in them. Factory tie rods will not only be too short, but they'll hit the subframe and possibly even the lower shock mounts. Of course, this all depends on how far forward the spindles end up.

It could be that he's changed things around enough that the tie rods will not hit. A picture would be worth 1000 words.

RCLOFMN,
I agree!

 

[NM]

I'll start off by saying I love the idea and it could be absolutely great improvements. Well worth the money if it does everything as planned (And I think it could). My question is why and how could you sell a product with no testing other than CAD? There is less than 100 in materials for a sub frame, even if there crude and just made to proper geometry's you could get all your bugs worked out without using customers money and have all answers to these questions. As to relating to a Polaris steering, they have a steering rack unlike the Nytro that mounts at a central location. You are changing a lot of geometry that the skinz kit is not by still pivoting in the same location. I can see using this thread to get a feel for the market but to put this out there with no real world testing I think is a poor decision. Since we have been comparing it to skinz, look how much testing they did over the last year before putting the kit out there. Another idea to test for cheap is mild steel. I just really feel something like this needs real world testing before a release to customers is even considered.

I love inovative thinking and think its a great idea. I just think the R&D needs to be done differently.

JMO

I appreciate all of the feedback.

I don't recall offering this product for sale. I simply outlined what the plan was and what it would cost if brought to reality.
I wasn't trying to solicit orders.

Thanks for the feedback though...we welcome all comments.

BTW...If you think there is only 100.00 in materials to build a subframe, how much material is in a-arms? 15-20.00????????????????? I think your out a bit.

 

[OFT Racing]

I appreciate all of the feedback.

I don't recall offering this product for sale. I simply outlined what the plan was and what it would cost if brought to reality.
I wasn't trying to solicit orders.

Thanks for the feedback though...we welcome all comments.

BTW...If you think there is only 100.00 in materials to build a subframe, how much material is in a-arms? 15-20.00????????????????? I think your out a bit.

Looking back, I miss read your original post. I thought you were looking to sell 10 to start production. Imo from a business point of view I would not invest in 10 expensive units that were not tested. But thats just me.

Absolutely, I could build a subframe out of 4130 for around 100 bucks. Now it would be labor intensive and not cost effective to mass produce this way. But as a inivative idea the labor would be a investment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say your retail price is out of line in the least. Now if you didn't have the resources to build prototypes in house. It's would be a different story. For anybody who knows much about Skinz, they can build practically anything in house and this is a big asset in things like the design of there front end.

I am not here to give you business advice, so take my comments with a grain of salt. But I do like the idea, I would just build a couple single subframes. Get them on the snow. Change what you don't like, figure out what you do like. It's much easyer to cut a weld on a couple prototype's than change a whole production run. Then get your production run and I have no doubts they would sell if it's done right.

 

[NM]

Looking back, I miss read your original post. I thought you were looking to sell 10 to start production. Imo from a business point of view I would not invest in 10 expensive units that were not tested. But thats just me.

Absolutely, I could build a subframe out of 4130 for around 100 bucks. Now it would be labor intensive and not cost effective to mass produce this way. But as a inivative idea the labor would be a investment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say your retail price is out of line in the least. Now if you didn't have the resources to build prototypes in house. It's would be a different story. For anybody who knows much about Skinz, they can build practically anything in house and this is a big asset in things like the design of there front end.

I am not here to give you business advice, so take my comments with a grain of salt. But I do like the idea, I would just build a couple single subframes. Get them on the snow. Change what you don't like, figure out what you do like. It's much easyer to cut a weld on a couple prototype's than change a whole production run. Then get your production run and I have no doubts they would sell if it's done right.

We get what your saying, and would not even consider releasing a product without testing it ourselves.

I just don't get how you could build a subframe for 100.00 Have you actually seen how many mounts and attaching points they have? Not to mention the steering mounts, etc. Then you have to figure on mandrel bending pipe, cutting and bending all of the mounts, and then build a jig. It is a massive project just to build one properly.
I tell you what... I will give you 200.00 to build me one.

 

[ruffryder]

NM,

He seemed to state it would be 100 bucks for the raw materials, not for the time, as obviously they are VERY time intensive, as you have stated.

This is a good discussion, and thanks for clarifying the issue of not trying to sell these right now, but to focus on testing.

 

[NM]

NM,

He seemed to state it would be 100 bucks for the raw materials, not for the time, as obviously they are VERY time intensive, as you have stated.

This is a good discussion, and thanks for clarifying the issue of not trying to sell these right now, but to focus on testing.

I am uderstanding what he is saying, i just don't know how he came up with that number.

If I had the talent to build one myself, then the time would be pretty much all of my commitment, but I am paying a fab shop for every step of this piece.

When you have to pay close to 100 buck an hour for everything, the bill goes up pretty quick.

 

[OFT Racing]

I am uderstanding what he is saying, i just don't know how he came up with that number.

If I had the talent to build one myself, then the time would be pretty much all of my commitment, but I am paying a fab shop for every step of this piece.

When you have to pay close to 100 buck an hour for everything, the bill goes up pretty quick.

I've got a idea of what it takes . Yeah if you have to pay a fab shop even 1700 would be a bargain for a 1 off. It's extremely time consuming, I was talking just parts. Everything for a subframe I could do in my shop and thats where savings are. Anyways this is getting off subject, the whole point is the R&D, I think we are on the same page. I like the idea, lets see the prototype!

 

[AKrider]

I think incorporating a steering rack like you mentioned would be the hot set up. Use an off the shelf Polaris rack, copy their a-arm mounting geometry but use the stock Nytro a-arms and shocks. With the rack, the stock spindles should work and aside from the subframe, all the replacement parts would always be available from a Yamaha or Polaris dealer.