Can we help Cardiac Kid?

[thefullmonte]

Cardiac, where do you live buddy?
OK guys, he has his 08 d8 that has never run right since the day he got it. Polaris is more or less giving up on him. He and his dealer seemed to have tried everything including a PC V. I think it is mostly a stumble issue that acts like it is cutting out.
I'm thinking possibly somekind of ground issue or connection problem.
Cardiac, could you post up on here exactly what your sled is or isn't doing and what the dealers have tried, changed or replaced.
I wish I could ride it to see what is up, but maybe we can pool together and hopefully finally get to the bottom of this.
GO TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aebsledder]

I would like to help too!

I struggled with my sled for a while and I know how frustrating it can be. The dealer I use can be fairly savvy when it comes to these things, and is always willing to help. Knowing where he lives would help, as would all of the symptoms. Good post Monte, in my opinion this is why the forum exists. I know I would be worse off if there weren't people on here who helped me out.

 

[Cardiac Kid]

Thanks guys. I live in Coeur D'Alene Idaho we have a couple of dealers in the area and they have been very supportive but unsuccessful. I have a dealer out of the area I am currently working with who I met at a state snowmobile convention who seems to be going the extra mile at the moment to get me some help but we are rapidly running out of snow so I have a gut feeling that I may end another season with a marginal sled to deal with.
The local dealers have gotten me more than a couple of test flashes to try that were never released. They have gone thought all the sensors more than once at my request. Replaced the poorly designed sparkplug wires. Replaced exhaust canister, supported the use of an SLP pipe and can and continued to warranty. Suggested the removal of the SLP pipe and can. Check the TPS more than one. I have also check the TPS and the Base was in spec but on the edge so I set it right on the money and I raised the Idle setting a little to the upper end of the spec to help with the hard starting and poor idle. They have replaced exhaust valve springs, once in 09 to see what that did and again with the 2010 update. I replaced them again with Pink springs after this at the suggestion of SLP as another idea. I have also sealed up the air box which could really use some redesigning, cleaned the throttle bodies and checked the reed-valves this last January. I’ve likely missed something but as a first cut this is what I remember.

What is the sled doing? Well it doesn't sound to different from some of the other sled symptom on here currently and I did ride at over 9000 feet this last week and it was the best this sled has ever ran and the mid range stumble was reduced to a flat spot that could be driven though but still no top end power and very poor mid range pull. I don't think these are too unusual for some of these sled. The sled doen’t like to start some time and other times it starts ok. (Can take up to 10 or more pulls with the throttle cracked slightly or it might start on the first pull with no throttle).

I typical ride at 3000 to 6000 feet and the sled runs very poorly at this elevation. I have never had any real clutching issue or clutch heat issue or belt life problem with the stock set up or the current setup. The sled is more responsive with the current setup, thanks AKSNOWRIDER. But it stumbles in the 6200 to 7000 rpm range and will not pull more than 7950 on top end on hard pack unless I hold the throttle at about 3/4 in which case it might bump 8000 some times. I have tried different wt including 62’s, 64’s, 68 mtx and 67.5 lighting wt to see if I could change the load on the motor enough to correct the problem as some have suggested.

It has had new clutch springs install each season and have had two set of springs this year as I finally tried to see what might be gained by changing the wts and helix. In the powder pulling a hill it hasn't pulled over 7800 since the first official reflash in late April of 2008. The clutches have been adjusted and align in 08 and check each season and a new belt installed at least once each season even though the old belts are still in great shape with hardly any measurable wear except one which I take full credit for the destruction of.

I currently have a out of the area dealer that is getting me a new ECU to try and hope to be able to have that installed in the next week or so in an effort to improve this sled so I am currently in a bit of a holding pattern waiting to see what this does and will let all of you know.

Oh I have also had all the part associated with the exhaust valves gone though by the dealer and myself, and have installed a PCV and tried multiple maps that are available for this sled and they all made the condition worse. I haven’t had a chance to call and talk to the PCV dealer yet to see if he has any ideas or has seen this before but from what I have seen on his web it hasn't been discussed. Maybe I can find 20 min tomorrow to give him a call and see what he knows.

I am open to all suggestions or ideas but at the moment I am just trying to think positive and hope that the new ECM does the trick.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Cardiac, when the dealer does the new ecm..see if he can grab a new voltage regulator too..I bet your either over or under volting..also if that doesnt fix it..find some one with a raw polaris..6-7-or 8..and grab the air sensor out of the airbox..I have seen several sleds not run right due to a contaminnated air sensor.also same deal with the EGT sensor in the exhaust.....now..who else in your area has a decent running 8 you can try parts off.......naw..you wont need too..one of those 4 things is causing the problem....hang in there..we will get this thing fixed up..


monte...good of you to post this up....nice to see you on here to AB...

 

[likinit2]

2520771 ASM-FUEL LINE,W/FILTER,RMK SD $63.74 $63.74
1203256 ASM-FUEL FILTER RETAINER $9.43 $9.43
5812996 PAD-FUEL FILTER $1.17 $1.17

I don't know if you need the fuel filter retainer with these filters but one of my riding partners bought a 08 D7 and was doing what you are describing only it got worse and he took it in and all they did was replace these filters. I will try to get more info and I remember the dealer saying they really couldn't find anything wrong but they replaced the filters and said to see if it made any difference. It really came to life after that. Now the ski-doo dealer can't figure out what is wrong with his 06 summit that was initialy took in for warranty for loss of power and not getting rpm out of it. Now it is out of warranty, BRP won't help and the dealer had over 80 hours logged on it and gave up. I hope you have better response from Polaris. I have a similar story with my 08 M8 that was just over a month out of warranty. At least almost 2000.00 later it had a new ecm and was running again. Not bad for being in the shop for 5 weeks! I'm riding my Edge again I was riding it anyway might as well enjoy it. ,(Dumped the M to the highest bidder) Besides, There will never be a reason I will ever have to take it to a dealer and be at the mercy of a reflash, digital wrench, problems I can't figure out etc. Anyway, Best of luck to you!

 

[Sula Tom]

Have faith Cardiac, it took me two years to get my 08 D8 running right. When you finally do they are an awsome machine. Some of the guys on here are the best help you are going to find, thanks to everyone who has helped me and is currently helping me with my new 2010 D8, which by the way is incredible. I had tried the pink springs and it helped, but bypassing the exhaust valve canister seemed to help even more, good ethanol free premium fuel with about 16oz. of Torco accellerator really seemed to wake up my 2010, had never tried it on my 08 but its worth a shot.

 

[minus40]

Cardiac, send me a copy of the PCV map that you are using. I will compare it to some from sleds I know that run good. minus40 at sasktel dot net

 

[Cardiac Kid]

Thanks guys. I am a lot closer to running good than I have been but there just is still something just not right about this sled that is holding it back. It does have a new fuel filter. Is there more than one that needs to be changed? I've wondered about the Voltage regulator but haven’t found any way to check it published in posts on any sites. Since I picked up the pcV I did note that the TPS voltage that the software is showing is very very close to what I set it at for idle(within 2 thousands of a volt), so I was thinking that maybe that indicated that my voltage regulator is working well but I don't know if that is a valid assumption? Is there test to determine if the pipe temp sensor and air intake sensor are operating correctly? I haven't seen anything on this. The only other dragon I have direct access is a 2010 assault and it has bigger running issues than mine. It has a big RPM surging like the timing is changing up and down, but no codes are showing up.

 

[Kraven]

C/K,

1) On the voltage reg, what does your gauge show on the dash?? 1 or 2 notches down from the top is close.

2) One and only fuel filter, if in doubt, check it by removing it and trying to blow through it.

3) If the pipe sensor goes bad, you get 5 flashes on the dash

4) Did you ever try taking some mini vise grips and pinching off the exhaust purge hoses???

5) I'm sure you checked this already, but possible torn exhaust bellows????

6) When checking the T.P.S. can/did you use the old needle style voltmeter and throttle up and down SLOWLY and see if there's an erratic reading possible "flat/dead spot on the T.P.S.??????

7) Has the stator been tested?

Real E-Z to do, here's the specs:

Test the wires coming from the stator (+/- 15% at 20* C) w/sled cold, then repeat when warm:


For the 2008 600cfi/700/800 CFI's

1) YELLOW to YELLOW 0.13 OHMS

2) DARK GREEN/RED to GREEN/YELLOW 15 OHMS

3) DARK GREEN/RED to BROWN/WHITE 30 ohms

4) DARK BLUE/YELLOW to BLUE/YELLOW 2.4 ohms

5) WHITE/RED to WHITE 190 ohms

6) WHITE/DARK GREEN to DARK GREEN 190 ohms

7) BROWN /WHITE to GROUND 0 ohms

8) BROWN to GROUND 0 ohms


+/- 15% at 20* C


Hope this helps

Thanks guys. I am a lot closer to running good than I have been but there just is still something just not right about this sled that is holding it back. It does have a new fuel filter. Is there more than one that needs to be changed? I've wondered about the Voltage regulator but haven’t found any way to check it published in posts on any sites. Since I picked up the pcV I did note that the TPS voltage that the software is showing is very very close to what I set it at for idle(within 2 thousands of a volt), so I was thinking that maybe that indicated that my voltage regulator is working well but I don't know if that is a valid assumption? Is there test to determine if the pipe temp sensor and air intake sensor are operating correctly? I haven't seen anything on this. The only other dragon I have direct access is a 2010 assault and it has bigger running issues than mine. It has a big RPM surging like the timing is changing up and down, but no codes are showing up.

 

[Cardiac Kid]

Wow Kraven thanks!!
1) On the voltage reg, what does your gauge show on the dash?? 1 or 2 notches down from the top is close. I will need to check I did know this existed.
2) One and only fuel filter, if in doubt, check it by removing it and trying to blow through it.ck

3) If the pipe sensor goes bad, you get 5 flashes on the dash. no flash at all

4) Did you ever try taking some mini vise grips and pinching off the exhaust purge hoses??? Have done thanks to THEFULLMONTY

5) I'm sure you checked this already, but possible torn exhaust bellows???? been checked and good then lost one and check again and all good now

6) When checking the T.P.S. can/did you use the old needle style voltmeter and throttle up and down SLOWLY and see if there's an erratic reading possible "flat/dead spot on the T.P.S.?????? Yes

7) Has the stator been tested? No but looking forward to this.

Real E-Z to do, here's the specs:

Test the wires coming from the stator (+/- 15% at 20* C) w/sled cold, then repeat when warm:


For the 2008 600cfi/700/800 CFI's

1) YELLOW to YELLOW 0.13 OHMS

2) DARK GREEN/RED to GREEN/YELLOW 15 OHMS

3) DARK GREEN/RED to BROWN/WHITE 30 ohms

4) DARK BLUE/YELLOW to BLUE/YELLOW 2.4 ohms

5) WHITE/RED to WHITE 190 ohms

6) WHITE/DARK GREEN to DARK GREEN 190 ohms

7) BROWN /WHITE to GROUND 0 ohms

8) BROWN to GROUND 0 ohms


+/- 15% at 20* C


Hope this helps[/QUOTE]

Can we add this to the increasing you IQ this is helpful for me and likly others.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

C/K,

1) On the voltage reg, what does your gauge show on the dash?? 1 or 2 notches down from the top is close.

2) One and only fuel filter, if in doubt, check it by removing it and trying to blow through it.

3) If the pipe sensor goes bad, you get 5 flashes on the dash

4) Did you ever try taking some mini vise grips and pinching off the exhaust purge hoses???

5) I'm sure you checked this already, but possible torn exhaust bellows????

6) When checking the T.P.S. can/did you use the old needle style voltmeter and throttle up and down SLOWLY and see if there's an erratic reading possible "flat/dead spot on the T.P.S.??????

7) Has the stator been tested?

Real E-Z to do, here's the specs:

Test the wires coming from the stator (+/- 15% at 20* C) w/sled cold, then repeat when warm:


For the 2008 600cfi/700/800 CFI's

1) YELLOW to YELLOW 0.13 OHMS

2) DARK GREEN/RED to GREEN/YELLOW 15 OHMS

3) DARK GREEN/RED to BROWN/WHITE 30 ohms

4) DARK BLUE/YELLOW to BLUE/YELLOW 2.4 ohms

5) WHITE/RED to WHITE 190 ohms

6) WHITE/DARK GREEN to DARK GREEN 190 ohms

7) BROWN /WHITE to GROUND 0 ohms

8) BROWN to GROUND 0 ohms


+/- 15% at 20* C


Hope this helps

Kraven, I have seen exhaust sensors that flashed no codes..but would run like crap..they had some kind of contamination on them..when replaced the sleds ran much better..so having a code isnt an absolute..pass/fail....

 

[diamonddave]

The only thing I would add to the already great ideas would be to install a ground strap from the chassis ground on the clutch guard to the engine. Poor grounds can cause alot of wierd issues and this is a poor ground design.

Has fuel pressure been checked? Are you running stock reeds? How is your fuel consumption? Going through alot of gas? Also I'd check you oiler cable, I've seen a few (3) broken down at the hold down bracket.

 

[Cardiac Kid]

Stock reeds, defiantly could add some grounding. It does seem like on my last ride the fuel consumption went up but it also wasn't my typical ride we did a lot of full power miles so I can't really say. What are your thoughts on the fuel consumption going up? I did have the fuel pressure checked but it was a long time ago like late 08 or early 09 when I had a really bad stumble and was taking out motors like a top fuel funny car owner.

 

[EricW]

Cardiac, I'm 2.5 hours north in Kettle Falls, WA. 4 Dragons and all the spare parts to switch around. My shop is well set up and we can test ride in 20 mins from the shop. If your time is tight, just leave it with me and I will work with the crew here and get her dialed. I don't know/haven't seen the PCV yet, but I am a quick study and love to push buttons and watch lights flash. Doing a turbo 8 on Sunday or Monday so I will be in the shop for a day or two. Let me know. EW

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Cardiac, I'm 2.5 hours north in Kettle Falls, WA. 4 Dragons and all the spare parts to switch around. My shop is well set up and we can test ride in 20 mins from the shop. If your time is tight, just leave it with me and I will work with the crew here and get her dialed. I don't know/haven't seen the PCV yet, but I am a quick study and love to push buttons and watch lights flash. Doing a turbo 8 on Sunday or Monday so I will be in the shop for a day or two. Let me know. EW

ERic...you the man................
by far on runability issues I still think the fastest way to find the problem is sub known good parts..sooner or later the bad one shows up....

 

[94fordguy]

ERic...you the man................
by far on runability issues I still think the fastest way to find the problem is sub known good parts..sooner or later the bad one shows up....

X2, Awesome offer EW


Yup, there are only so many things it could be, eventually it will turn up

 

[Cardiac Kid]

Eric
I would love to come up and ride. I took the pcv off becuase it ran worse with it than without it so that isn't an issue. I'll PM you from work tomarrow some time on thursday when I can see what my weekend looks like, I think my 9 yr old has basketball this Saturday but maybe that won't be a conflict,

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Cardiac, I'm 2.5 hours north in Kettle Falls, WA. 4 Dragons and all the spare parts to switch around. My shop is well set up and we can test ride in 20 mins from the shop. If your time is tight, just leave it with me and I will work with the crew here and get her dialed. I don't know/haven't seen the PCV yet, but I am a quick study and love to push buttons and watch lights flash. Doing a turbo 8 on Sunday or Monday so I will be in the shop for a day or two. Let me know. EW

ok Eric..since you are pulling off miracles this week..can ya sell my dragon(it actually does rip).....

 

[likinit2]

Actually there are two fuel filters, a primary which is the large one and a fine small one from what i was told and the part numbers are in the above post. He had the small fine filter replaced.

 

[Kraven]

BAD PIPE TEMP SENSOR

Kraven, I have seen exhaust sensors that flashed no codes..but would run like crap..they had some kind of contamination on them..when replaced the sleds ran much better..so having a code isnt an absolute..pass/fail....

Mike,

Thanks, didn't know that