BRP Official Statement on 2017 Gen 4 sleds

[mountainhorse]

Dumb question here, but did the demo/protype 850's last year have belt issues, dont remember hearing anything about it? If not what was changed between demo/prototype and production? Thnx

From what I've heard.... the Demo/Proto sleds were NOT having issues...but the belt temps were high. Of course, BRP had control over maintenance and belt replacement within the demo-fleet, and I did not hear of the frequency of the belt replacement in that fleet.

Prototypes are generally built with much tighter QC related to limited run... and are often are not built from parts made during a normal high volume production run.

As BRP has stated... the problem is not in the design of the system. Though, IMO, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that the high belt temperature and belt failures are related to consistencies in production and stacking-tolerances encountered during the implementation of the many 'new-tech' features of the G4-850 into a high volume, mass production scenario.

The fact is that many/most G4-850 Summit owners have normal or near-normal belt life... and a significant number of other G4-850 Summit owners have failures. To me, this is a good indication that production implementation success/failure of this new-tech is related to mfg consistency rather than the engineering behind the G4-850 CVT/engine system.

Ski-Doo - 2017 REV Gen4 Update
SKI-DOO·WEDNESDAY, MARCH 29, 2017

We’re posting to let you know that we will have some updates for 2017 REV Gen4 sleds before next season. We’re aware that some owners have experienced abnormal belt issues with their 850-powered Ski-Doo sleds. We’re going to work with them to make that right. Here are a couple points:

• There has been discussion about whether the new pDrive sheave system might be responsible for increased belt heat, resulting in shorter belt life. We have performed rigorous testing and can confidently state that this is not the case - the new setup is proven to actually reduce belt temperatures vs. a traditional set-up. We’re moving forward with the same system for the 2018 model year and beyond.

• The majority of 2017 850 owners have not experienced any issues with their belt life. However, some have and our goal is zero issues for customers.

• We want to ensure that all 2017 850 E-TEC owners are taken care of and can enjoy their sled safely, reliably and without belt issues, so we are looking at certain MY18 changes that will be made available to MY17 owners.

• While we’re still evaluating next steps, we are committed to have an update ready well before the beginning of the upcoming riding season. As soon as we have more news, we’ll let you know here.

As always, if you have any questions, comments or concerns, please post them here and we’ll do our best to respond tomorrow.

...




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[fredw]

Doo should grab a few belt burners out here and a few of the ones that are not, go threw them,. If it's not a quality control problem, maybe it's just the drivers on the non belt blowers that are making the difference from not pushing them as hard..

I just look at the guys we ride with and it seams all the guys that push there sleds hard, break trail, do long pulls are the guys blowing.. Others not so much..

Would not rule out the crapy 391 belt so quick as well, I feel they are also gabage

 

[ntm_08]

From what I've heard.... the Demo/Proto sleds were NOT having issues...but the belt temps were high. Of course, BRP had control over maintenance and belt replacement within the demo-fleet, and I did not hear of the frequency of the belt replacement in that fleet.

Prototypes are generally built with much tighter QC related to limited run... and are often are not built from parts made during a normal high volume production run.

As BRP has stated... the problem is not in the design of the system. Though, IMO, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that the high belt temperature and belt failures are related to consistencies in production and stacking-tolerances encountered during the implementation of the many 'new-tech' features of the G4-850 into a high volume, mass production scenario.

The fact is that many/most G4-850 Summit owners have normal or near-normal belt life... and a significant number of other G4-850 Summit owners have failures. To me, this is a good indication that production implementation success/failure of this new-tech is related to mfg consistency rather than the engineering behind the G4-850 CVT/engine system.




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All 850's have to high belt temps, while mabye 1/3 go past the critical point for whatever reason. This clearly show that something is wrong. While all updates for 18' lower the top belt temps by 15 degrees. This probably helps alot (with the new belt also) but i still think the belt temps is to high.

 

[ghost rider]

Brp

BRP,
Thanks for acknowledging there is an issue on some sleds.

There are quite a few us that are having major issues with belts with a level of frustration that has never been seen before by many of us who have rode for countless years.

Some who quite riding a month ago because they couldn't afford to buy anymore belts and dealers who don't have a fix. For the many that we ride with there are more with issues than not. Happy for those who haven't.

Sled is an amazing sled and a blast to ride.For those who are wondering have we done all we can to eliminate heat? Well if installing vents, blow hole, modifiying clutch cover, removing all foam unnecessary, all engine covers unnecessary, throwing different clutch setups, etc. u get my point with just small improvements and yet still stringing belts. This is all on our dime and still problem exists.

I'm on hold on snow checking 2 sleds as I always do until I hear a solution from my dealer.

Your hurting your dealers as well! And only having dealer warranty 1 belt per sled when we r blowing them on average every 200 miles is a joke. Like it's our fault they are blowing

In my business we stand behind everything we sell and sometimes to make it right we end up giving and not taking so we can keep a business relationship for years to come.

BRP i hope you stand behind your fix and make it right
My .02

 

[sledhead_24_7]

I am curious as to what test was used to determine that the Pdrive was supposed to reduce temps by 70 degrees Fahrenheit? At least according to the printed information from last spring...

Obviously that is not the case, hence my curiosity on the test. Was it in a test cell or real world, also were tests with TRA in the G4, for a true chassis comparison?

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

I am curious as to what test was used to determine that the Pdrive was supposed to reduce temps by 70 degrees Fahrenheit? At least according to the printed information from last spring...

Obviously that is not the case, hence my curiosity on the test. Was it in a test cell or real world, also were tests with TRA in the G4, for a true chassis comparison?

Yes , based on this the belt should have barely been warm , let alone smoking hot

 

[salmonbum]

I am curious as to what test was used to determine that the Pdrive was supposed to reduce temps by 70 degrees Fahrenheit? At least according to the printed information from last spring...

Obviously that is not the case, hence my curiosity on the test. Was it in a test cell or real world, also were tests with TRA in the G4, for a true chassis comparison?

If any of you guys that have a 850, take a infrared temp gauge out on the snow with ya and take some readings on the clutches. Post them up here in a "sticky" so we can compare the findings with the 2018 and see if their claim is true.

Take a reading on the inner and outer sheaves, close to the shaft and the outside OD, and the same on the secondary.

 

[Daag44]

SnoWest effort to Welcome BRP is much appreciated

Doo should grab a few belt burners out here and a few of the ones that are not, go threw them,. If it's not a quality control problem, maybe it's just the drivers on the non belt blowers that are making the difference from not pushing them as hard..

I just look at the guys we ride with and it seams all the guys that push there sleds hard, break trail, do long pulls are the guys blowing.. Others not so much..

Would not rule out the crapy 391 belt so quick as well, I feel they are also gabage

For the trail sleds many have found them far too hot while others found them unbelievably cooler than prior clutches with extensive wot pulls ranging from 70 to 100+ mph for miles and miles. So it's not as simple as long pulls or belts.

One owner found the belts would grow the hottest at medium cruising speeds of 40-70mph, while another found it would grow the hottest at higher cruising speeds with the notorious coal/black belt print at 3/4 to 7/8 shift on the primary. The common denominator was the constant Track Speed.

The same type of constant speed is also seen in the mountains with deep snow climbs. At wot the track speed is whatever can be had to keep climbing. With the lower gearing of the Summits the belt can find itself quite high and it also leaves a coal/black belt print. The common denominator is again the constant Track Speed.

Another 850 trail sled owner who rides wot from corner to corner found his clutches remained squeaky clean. The common denominator with the very first example is varying Track Speed.

Someone mentioned earlier that it appeared to be related to the driver, or more precisely how the sleds are operated. In other words the problem is excess heat generated at constant speeds, and the underlying cause has yet to be explained.

From what I have seen so far it would appear the new clutch design is sensitive to Alignment and Engine Movement. From various accounts on the MXZ both have been found to be different between sleds. The differences are maybe only 1 or 2mm, but this can be a significant variance when stacking both the Alignment and Engine Movement. Add a Driveline calibration that is a compromise for various conditions and riding styles, and the problem is magnified. But all these things were also important with the TRA clutches.

For the mountain riders who drive their sleds in the most severe conditions, the problem is even more complicated with deep snow riding that tends to block the evacuation of the belt heat. Not only do they have the 3 problems listed above, they now have a 4th that weights heavily on the others.

What all these problems have in common is that they lead to premature belt wear and dirty clutch sheaves. On a trail sled the wear per ride is normally minimal and can be addressed at the end of the ride. But on a Mountain sled that sees climbs that last in excess of 2min and puts the belt under severe duty, it is unlikely the clutches will be cleaned and belt deflection readjusted before the next climb. At the very least the clutch panel needs to remain open to let things cool.

What I find most troubling is that all of these problems have been addressed by the Owner Community, the Aftermarket Community, the BRP Dealer Community, BRP Ambassadors, and BRP themselves. I have yet to find an 850 owner who has followed all the resources made available free on Social Media and still have major problems with belt wear. The kicker is they were all made available by the end of December of 2016.

What worries me further is that the loudest voices on Social Media who continue to Cry Wolf have essentially magnified the problem to the point of holding the manufacture 100% responsible and liable for a problem that already has a solution, yet the charade continues even three months later to drive a wrench into the Spring Orders. Fortunately this hasn't been much of a problem on SnoWest and DooTalk due to the remarkable work from the Moderators and Members to stay on top of the issues and to welcome/support BRP's continued participation on this public forum. The effort has not gone unnoticed and has been much appreciated.

 

[PaulAnd]

Daag44 I've been watching all the forums for a real fix for the hot clutch issue
And I dont believe I've come across the fix,
Just suggestions to deal with heat from the clutches.

I agree with fredw about the hot clutch issue being more about the rider and not the sled..
The guys blowing belts are blowing through a tank of fuel in 2 to 3 hours?
I burn 5-6 gal. In 6hours
And my clutches are way too hot to touch.
Still on my original belt @ 500 miles

 

[Thistledoo]

BRP did the proto sleds have the wobble clutch? I'm assuming they did but deep down cant get this thru my head...been riding sleds in the mtns since 1995 and have had a lot of summits thru the years.

Love my 850 but this season has been a lot of wheels turning season if you know what I mean, count less time spent at the dealer, riding always worried, solid 1000 miles and 10 belts...and I have tried everything, always strung out on the wobble side...clutches are melting HOT and im fanning when I should be riding. We had killer snow in the west this year and it really got wasted, love the 850 but hate the list of issues...and its a BIG list.

 

[Daag44]

There is a couple of questions for BRP that plague my mind.
Why doesn't BRP work more closely with the Aftermarket?
Do they know the Aftermarket does have Certified BRP Technicians?

The Aftermarket are unbiased, and they can offer two important things.
One is a fair test, and
The other is a performance complement which ranges from Forced Induction to Clutching.

It is my point of view that the manufacturers have a large benefit to help the Aftermarket encourage the sport.







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[rightjake]

I want to thank BRP for building the G4. This is the best sled I have owned. EVER. I agree with DJ and others about being anxious the night before a ride. I have so much fun riding this thing. 154x2.5 X. I am on original belt and it is still green. Clutches get fairly hot but my belt is just very warm to touch. I ride hard and don't stop to cool clutches. I installed blowhole, BRP front grill screen, ZRP weights 87 grams. 4000'-7000' elevation. 600 miles on sled and love it. I also have no rpm fade like I did on all of my past sleds with tra. I really like the pdrive.

 

[mountainhorse]

Moderators Note:

I've cleaned up this thread to keep it on point to ask questions of BRP...
or to comment on brpcare's input or BRP statements on the 2017
G4-850 Summit Clutching.

Any posts that have been moved have been moved to this location...
Coments on aftermarket solutions:
https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423304

Wish list items:
https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433458

Please help us keep this thread on topic.
TOPIC ...Asking questions of brpcare on the topic at hand... the 2017 G4-850 CVT issues.

If you have input on aftermarket solutions, personal wish list items for the sled or others... those are all fine, and valued... but please post them in an existing thread or create a new one germane to your new topic.

Thanks In Advance.




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[brpcare]

And only having dealer warranty 1 belt per sled when we r blowing them on average every 200 miles is a joke. Like it's our fault they are blowing

Obviously you should not be blowing a belt every 200 miles under normal riding conditions, and there isn't a policy in place to "warranty 1 belt per sled". Your dealership is responsible for creating a warranty case and providing the necessary info to back up a warranty claim. If it's found that the failure is abnormal, the belt itself as well as consequential damage may be covered by us.

Do they know the Aftermarket does have Certified BRP Technicians?

Yes, we do. There are lots of great companies out there making solid contributions to the sled and to the sport. BRP is unique in that we don't see them as competitors, but as partners.

I find it very interesting that BRP ignored my email about this until I posted it here on SW.

If your email was not responded to by our service team I apologize. Please contact us again at brp.care@brp.com and I'll make sure someone responds to you right away.

- Steven M.

 

[salmonbum]

Obviously you should not be blowing a belt every 200 miles under normal riding conditions, and there isn't a policy in place to "warranty 1 belt per sled". Your dealership is responsible for creating a warranty case and providing the necessary info to back up a warranty claim. If it's found that the failure is abnormal, the belt itself as well as consequential damage may be covered by us.

Just a note: IN 2009 I bought an XP. After 350 break in (I took it easy), I blew a belt on a trail ride in Michigan. The sled was also over-reving. I stopped into a local dealer all he did was turn down to clicker two and sold me a belt. He said he would do the "one belt warrant" paperwork to try to get me a belt. I didn't know any better, but He told me he was supposed to do the alignment for the warranty paperwork, but he said its a pain. He made up some numbers and call it "Within Spec". I didn't know how bad that lie they did would cost me. I had a belt eater and BRP didn't do anything for me. EVER. That's when I came up with the Shim kit. I had too.

the dealers are not the sharpest tool in the shed. They are out to get their money anyway they can, and do less work to get it. The last 2014 XM I bought (snowcheck) I wanted them to do an alignment check and document it into the system, and I told them I would be double checking it. They wanted to charge me $150 to do that and I know damn well it should be part of PDI. I argued with them for an hr and they refused to do it unless I paid. I got to the point I told them to keep the sled and I would buy a Polaris.

 

[nickbeann]

Hi BrpCare,
The question I have is this;
Is there a procedure to check the x y z alignment on the g4 sleds or are they locked down and non adjustable from factory ? Thankyou

 

[sledheadjake]

@ BRP Care, my dealer has been great trying to remedy this clutching issue, but as of yet it is still creating too much heat. They have changed the helix out to a 40 Deg, plus they have slightly lowered the gearing. The primary clutch runs much hotter than the secondary by 40-50 Degrees all the time. Are you able to tell us what you believe is the solution or if you have found it? I have done all the mods on the clutch cover plus added a blowhole to pull as much heat as possible. Thanks,

 

[mv183]

BRP, I absolutely love my summit, it's been rode hard (I didn't buy it to just look at it), my personal opinion about the bulkhead is that there will always be a weight/strength sacrifice, and lets face it it's a snowmobile not a trophy truck, but

My concern is the drive system.

I check my alignment regularly, keep things clean and adjusted, I've made a gearing, spring, and weight adjustments and everything feels spot on and added venting (I'm fairly competent when tuning, I get all my parts through the race dept).

What's scary is that the clutch faces are still hot frying pans.

Running side by side with my 14 XM, I see 25*- 60*F higher temps (Fluke IR gun).

The belt is like a soft rubber band until the whole system cools down.

I don't have a "belt eater" in my opinion, but I have pulled cords on two belts and caught it moments before destruction (yes I clean all my belts with HOT water and Dawn prior to break in) so excessive heat is coming from somewhere.

So now that I've got all that out...

BRP, When you say updates will be made available for the '17's...

Question for brpcare: Will that be a recall situation or we we be fixing the known problem out of our own pockets?



(btw my XM is on it's second belt the original is in the tunnel bag if it's needed)





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[salmonbum]

So only a few days left for snowcheck. Does BRP have any updates on current testing that have shown any improvements in belt life other than the existing list of band aides? I'm sure I'm not the only one on the fences. Right now I am leaning on passing

 

[Calvin42]

Just pull the trigger. No other company has ever come on here to let people know that they know the problems exist and are taking measures to fix the issues. I have ordered my second and look forward to a great season again next year.