"Best all around Bike?" 2013 Build Project
- Thread starter mtn-doo
- Start date
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
I was afraid someone would ask that question...
They are two totally different "feeling" bikes. They also ride, "style" different. Here is a hands on explanation;
The 450SXF, LT is a powerhouse and a Cadillac. With the air box mod's, and gearing set, all you do is push the button and ride. You can cruise, crawl, WOT rod it, climb, carve and explore. It is an all around excellent performing Cadillac.
The 300SX, ST is 55 to 57 hp. About the same as an average 450f. It "feels" 100 lbs lighter. It is hard to explain. I feel the engine and gyroscopic effects of the 450f engine combined with the overall added weight makes it "feel" like a tank by comparison. The 300sx generates track speed explosive quick. One blip of the clutch and it "jumps" on top and carries the ski. The WOT horsepower is equivalent, but seems to generate more "momentum" quicker, making it super "quick" as a boondocker. When you jump back and forth between the two, the 450f feels like a school bus in comparison. The 300 is amazingly strong at idle and a ton of torque, but not that slow thumper feel. It is always "wanting" to rip. That encourages you to "rip it". It loves an aggressive, "pushy" rider.
Sorry, I didn't really answer your question with a simple, "one is better". They are so different. My "favorite" to ride is the 300.
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ak
Well-known member
Thanks for the info.
If the 450 had a st kit would it feel less school bus like? If you were in tight,tight trees and they both had st kits what would make a better choice?
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thejean
Well-known member
I'll be able to give you my impression next year when I get my new 450 out in the hills. I currently have a 300 and it is great in the trees but doesn't seem to climb as well as my buddy's four strokes. the biggest issue I find is that if you don't keep it singing you can lose momentum in a hurry. Because the bike is bandy when it comes on mid-hill after a shift I find it will sometimes trench as opposed to climb unlike the big fours that seem to have better roll on torque. I've also ridden an 450 turbo with an ST in the trees and it was very capable but the turbo almost made it a bit like the 300 - nothing... Then wham! The 450s are also noticeably heavier to pick up when you drop them.
It could be that my struggles were due to having a 2011 kit and wide ratio tranny. Maybe a 2013/2014 track would have made a world of difference. Who knows, not sure. I can tell you this though, if you go 2013 or earlier 300 plan to replace the starter and bendix annually.
I also hate mixing gas in winter. My buddies just fill and go and I'm always freezing my fingers off. Not having to mess with a carb is nice too.
Anyway, I love the 300 and hoping I will love the 450 even more. If not, I will sell it and get a newer 300 xc with linkage for the following year. But when you see who's riding what and the guys that could choose any bike they want, the big names seem to be on 450's.
It could be that my struggles were due to having a 2011 kit and wide ratio tranny. Maybe a 2013/2014 track would have made a world of difference. Who knows, not sure. I can tell you this though, if you go 2013 or earlier 300 plan to replace the starter and bendix annually.
I also hate mixing gas in winter. My buddies just fill and go and I'm always freezing my fingers off. Not having to mess with a carb is nice too.
Anyway, I love the 300 and hoping I will love the 450 even more. If not, I will sell it and get a newer 300 xc with linkage for the following year. But when you see who's riding what and the guys that could choose any bike they want, the big names seem to be on 450's.
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
Thanks for your input. Your bike is actually not a fair comparison though. First off, a 2011 kit and a 2014 kit are night and day difference in performance alone. Two exact bikes, one on a 2011 and one on a 2014, the 2014 walks away from the 2011. Not even close. Second, comparing an xcw with a conventional carb, WR Trans, etc.. to an SX is like comparing a WR to a YZ.
There are not many truly "set up" 300SX's out there. The one I built is gone. I have been riding and building any and every bike from the first year. I can build or ride any bike of my choice. Next years build project is already coming together. It will be my personal daily rider and Northern Rocky Mtn dealer rep bike. It will also be the bike I use for corporate demo's with our dealer network. I will take the time to do a lot of filming and group riding to fill in the gap on this 300 topic. Will be very fun...
A little hint, the build thread is; "The ultimate 300 Build Thread"
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
The 300 and a 450f both on ST or LT kits share the same difference in "feel". The 300 weighs a mere 150 lbs with the rear assembly and front tire off. That combined with the lack of all the gyroscopic rotation and taller, heavier engine of the 450f, gives the 300 an amazing "feel". The high HP, close ratio trans, agressive track speed, and light weight make it the most "fun" boondocker myself and any who rode it have experienced.
I know what you are trying to ask... you have to decide what "you" like to do? If it is out climbing your buddies? I would turbo my SXF 450 and put the Titanium LT back on it. That's not what makes me smile. I LOVE steep trees, aggressive fast lines through tough country. That is not a "who's got the biggest bike" thing. It's a feather light, nimble, quick thing.... More power wouldn't accomplish anything. It is not a factor in that type of riding. Did you see that YZ250 at Jackson? He came on a demo with us outside Bozeman. We got in the trees, deep pow, and he was in the middle of the action all day.
You will have to decide what kind of riding you really want to focus on.
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thejean
Well-known member
That's fair. I thought about trying a 300 xc or SX but someone in the industry I respect very much steered me towards the 450. Time will tell. I also know of at least one person selling his 450 to build a hotrod 300. Tough call.
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
Hey buddy, don't doubt yourself. Not one person in the world would "regret" building a super nice, turn-key 450F. I've said it many times. They are the Cadillac. The 300SX is a different animal. Elbows out, throttle tapped, two fingers on the clutch, going into battle, kind of machine. It's not what everyone wants. For those who do, it's stupid fun and fast.
"going into battle" sounds fun though...
I am seriously thinking that the 300 is the bike build for me. Rode dirt bikes since I was 14. I ride Revy type conditions on a 800 Pro on the throttle all day, I am 170 6' do you think that the 300 would disappoint?
Ok here how I spend my winter vacation
built two 450f bikes, don't ask, but great bikes, wanted something lighter feeling so built a gas gas 300, it was heavier than the 450f but felt lighter riding it. After tabulating weight and deciding two stroke was for me, ended up with a xc 300 with the ecu and sx head and all I can say is finally its a keeper. I am a bigger guy, 235, and was concerned about how fast I would have to ride the two stroke to (stay on the pipe) and am pleasantly surprised how well this bike runs in the trees at a slow pace. If you are going to climb you need to get on the pipe but so far this bike has got me anywhere I wanted to go and is easier to ride than my 450. It is like a unfair advantage.....just don't tell anyone. And no valves to set. FI was great ...when it works....but a smart carb is simpler. Hope this helps...
built two 450f bikes, don't ask, but great bikes, wanted something lighter feeling so built a gas gas 300, it was heavier than the 450f but felt lighter riding it. After tabulating weight and deciding two stroke was for me, ended up with a xc 300 with the ecu and sx head and all I can say is finally its a keeper. I am a bigger guy, 235, and was concerned about how fast I would have to ride the two stroke to (stay on the pipe) and am pleasantly surprised how well this bike runs in the trees at a slow pace. If you are going to climb you need to get on the pipe but so far this bike has got me anywhere I wanted to go and is easier to ride than my 450. It is like a unfair advantage.....just don't tell anyone. And no valves to set. FI was great ...when it works....but a smart carb is simpler. Hope this helps...
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ak
Well-known member
Yes I seen the yz 250 run a Jackson, and it was slower than the 450's that's why I'm asking how the 300 power is.
I like two strokes because there simple, and I'm 5,7 150 lbs and the lighter the bike the less tired I could be. I hope to have a snow bike in the next couple years.
Trying to find the right used bike in Alaska might be challenge.
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mxracer299
Well-known member
If youre doing just a muffler id say do an fmf, if youre doing the full exhaust do the pro circuit, I have fmf on mine and it has more hit off the bottom than the PC but the PC pulls better on top and its a lot quieter. Id do the full PC, it works the best on the snow, FMF is probably going to be better on the dirt.
all interesting
been following the 300 thread for two years now. built a 250 to get a glimpse of two stroke on the snow, some positives for sure. Same issues as with the sleds 15 years ago : small motor sleds handled but lacked power, big sleds tanks that didn't handle............so we spend another 4k and build our own sleds from the little motors.
300 guys in the same boat, almost power and another 2-3K and your just about there. If there was an adequately powered 2 stroke current model bike I think there would be a stampede and I would grab bills to lead the way.
I am still eye balling this dilemma, do I want to dive in and build my own bike from top to bottom ? History has proven this is not an answer...........well for the masses.
All interesting, just some thoughts at the end of this year. Still looking for two stroke power ?
been following the 300 thread for two years now. built a 250 to get a glimpse of two stroke on the snow, some positives for sure. Same issues as with the sleds 15 years ago : small motor sleds handled but lacked power, big sleds tanks that didn't handle............so we spend another 4k and build our own sleds from the little motors.
300 guys in the same boat, almost power and another 2-3K and your just about there. If there was an adequately powered 2 stroke current model bike I think there would be a stampede and I would grab bills to lead the way.
I am still eye balling this dilemma, do I want to dive in and build my own bike from top to bottom ? History has proven this is not an answer...........well for the masses.
All interesting, just some thoughts at the end of this year. Still looking for two stroke power ?
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
It is fun stuff for sure. The two stroke thrives on being under a load and WOT all day. Just like our sleds engines have been for so many years. They are "at home" being used this way. The maintenance, cost, etc., are all very attractive. I will be working on this more. 55 to 57 hp is equal to the 4 stroke with 30 lbs less weight. I am certain the potential is there. We will develop a couple great packages soon.
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mtn-doo
Well-known member
No I didn't. There is the plug in the case where it goes on the xcw. I don't know if the internals are the same? Different gearing for sure, but what else? I don't know. I truly feel it is not necessary though. I would carry 2 things. The little jump box. It's the size of a smart phone, and a small cycle jumper cable in your tunnel bag. There is always another bike or sled to jump to. It is a security blanket if your little jump box goes dead. You can crank it for ever and tune or fix a problem with "unlimited" power with a simple, small jumper cable.
'13 450sx Kick Starter
KTM Country in Eugene installed kick starter for me, $300 in parts and 1 hour labor. Also, pic of my version of Randy's wire pre-filter support cage. I'm not as good as him at fabricating, and this is less parts to assemble. Will test it next ride to see if my sandwich stays fresh.
KTM Country in Eugene installed kick starter for me, $300 in parts and 1 hour labor. Also, pic of my version of Randy's wire pre-filter support cage. I'm not as good as him at fabricating, and this is less parts to assemble. Will test it next ride to see if my sandwich stays fresh.
