BCA 30 vs ABS vs Snowpulse vs Avi-vest

[Surly1]

The new BCA Float 30 can be filled at a dive shop (not sure, but I think the Snow Pulse can be refilled easily also).

Was just at Haydays and got to see the BCA Float in person. Very nice pack, very well thought out. There are compartmentes for your shovel blade, handle, and probe (all of these are contained so you don't have to worry about them falling out while riding). Likewise, a very large main compartment on the bag itself. They also incorporated a smaller pocket on top that is lined for goggles. The harness seemed good fitting (at least for me), and the pull cord can be zippered into the shoulder harness (reduces the chance of a snag when boondocking thru the trees to get to the good stuff).

The biggest question is will BCA actually get it out to the public in time (I guess I will find out, as I did put a deposit on one at Haydays). If you are interested in getting one, I would contact Snow Big Deal and get on the pre-order list, as I would assume it will get to be a long list.

 

[WARY]

The idea that a 3 to 5 pounds per square inch pressurized air bag is going to save you from death by trauma is wrong. The minute an air bag hits a rock or tree with enough force to kill you the air bag is going to explode or deflect and it will not save you. These air bags offer you zero protection from trauma.

This idea that these air bags can save you from death by trauma is false.

 

[avalanchesafety.ca]

The Snowpulse can be filled at diveshops, paint ball shops, firehalls - or wherever compressed air is available up to 3000 psi.

 

[AndrettiDog]

This idea that these air bags can save you from death by trauma is false.

I wondered as much. So the golden question is...

Is the $500 pack as good as the $1000 pack? Maybe one has more pockets than the other, but when it comes to providing avalanche safety, does it matter?

 

[avalanchesafety.ca]

The idea that a 3 to 5 pounds per square inch pressurized air bag is going to save you from death by trauma is wrong. The minute an air bag hits a rock or tree with enough force to kill you the air bag is going to explode or deflect and it will not save you. These air bags offer you zero protection from trauma.

This idea that these air bags can save you from death by trauma is false.

I have to disagree and I have a few good arguments. The first is a real life incident which occurred last winter at Eagle Pass heliskiing. Matt Peter, a lead guide was caught in an avalanche wearing a Snowpulse and was dragged through trees and over a small cliff. While Matt sustained serious injuries there was limited trauma to his chest and head and he strongly believes his life was saved by the trauma protection. This was not only his opinion but also the opinion of his many doctors.

It does not take a lot of force to give you a skull fracture and break bones (I ski patrolled for a few years and have seen plenty of examples) and even if the airbag is partially deflected there is a very good chance that the impact to the head or chest has been reduced. In Matt's case the cylinder was completely sheared off yet the airbag was still fully inflated. I am sure it did deform but it reduced the impact enough to save his life. In your own testing you have shown how tough it is to pop an airbag (this is the same material as car airbags). I jump on the Snowpulse all the time and when fully inflated my foot doesn't come close to the ground. While obviously you can still die of trauma wearing a Snowpulse, this game is all about increasing your chances, and the shape of the airbag does just that.

Dr. Jeff Boyd who presented a study on trauma at the 2009 ISSW in Whistler showed that 80-90% of trauma fatalities were head and chest fatalities and that the Snowpulse airbag shape was interesting and worth more investigation. It is the only airbag which has been designed from the outset with trauma protection as a priority.

Again, there are positive aspects to all airbags and I believe education needs to be the number 1 goal. Beyond that airbags should become part of everyone's standard safety equipment and all manufacturer's should work together to promote this and ultimately save lives. While comparisons should be made knocking other products and making weak statements such as the one above does not help achieve these goals.

As a note I remember talking to Tom (of Wari) and him thinking the Snowpules airbag shape was a pretty good idea.

 

[WARY]

Never mentioned any else's product, only stated that 3 psi would not stop a fatal blow. One user's opinion of his survival is a long way from a technical study, which has never been done. Before anyone claims trauma protection is available by using their product they should probably do some testing to verify that claim.

 

[snowww1]

Ok, I don't think the intention of this topic was slamming other people's products. I believe the Snowpulse guys have some valid points and an incident to offer some credibility to their claim. More research needs to be done and more actual accident reports will help verify claims. Anybody willing to get caught in an avalanche for research???? Not a bad idea to wear a tek vest in avalanche terrain to help prevent injuries and trauma. Many of the guys I ride with wear them.

One thing to consider when choosing a route is to consider what the consequences are if it does slide. If you are getting strained through the trees at 50 mph, you are going to suffer some injuries no matter what you are wearing. That's why so many people die from trauma in avalanches.

You can still get buried with a deployed avalanche airbag pack, but it will be a shallower burial. The ABS accident reports that I read through showed that complete burials are few and the depth was only around 2 feet deep. Make sure your friends are trained in rescue and beacons. About 5% of the people will not have the composure to pull the deploy handle. Good idea to practice grabbing towards where the handle is, so that it is second nature. You don't jump out of a plane without knowing where the ripcord is.

It may help if the manufacturers of the packs post photos and details of their packs. Mike Duffy

 

[bfchiro]

One point is that we all wear full faced helmets that protect us from trauma, where skiiers and snowboarders have a hat, which is no protection at all.

I like the snowpulse design and the bca pack as well. The avi-vest has some great features too. It is going to be a tough decision on what to buy, but I am leaning toward the bca pack.

 

[T-BO]

Ok a moving avalanche is like a fluid in wich these airbags are meant to float. So take a test dummy and put the various airbags on them and see how they float in a pool. This is the way I have been looking at the different packs and I believe the snowpulse would be the best at keeping you face up and your head high. There is a reason you cant find a lifejacket with all the flotation located on the middle of the back.

 

[furthur]

My first thought on the snowpulse is does it leave room for your helmet also, or force your head forward so you can't breath? No one in the pictures is wearing any helmet, let alone a snowmobile helmet. If anyone gets the chance to set one off while wearing a snowmobile helmet, I'd be gratefull for the review.

John

 

[bigbull]

Where can I find and read specific info on the Snowpulse and BCA packs? BCA doesn't have chit on their site about it.....odd.
BB

 

[PIKER]

My first thought on the snowpulse is does it leave room for your helmet also, or force your head forward so you can't breath? No one in the pictures is wearing any helmet, let alone a snowmobile helmet. If anyone gets the chance to set one off while wearing a snowmobile helmet, I'd be gratefull for the review.

John

I have a snowpulse and was riding up the trail and my helmet caught the handle and the bag deployed (it provided a good laugh for those behind me!). Anyways, there is plenty of room for your head/helmet and it does not force your head forward nor in my case, did it interfere in the operation of my sled.

Quintin

 

[wanaber]

I pop for 2 bca and my buddy did 1 at haydays this year. It's a well laid out back pack, with some good durable hardware on it. It has one 150 liter bag on it which is a little smaller than the escape 30 at 170 liters between two bags.

It isn't proven and you could even say I cheaped out a bit I kind of feel that way myself a bit. You'd pay anything if you needed one at that momment but I talked to the bca rep, the guy from snowbigdeal and Mike Duffy, Take his class, and they have no qualms about any of them. Other than bca ships Dec 31 Maybe and if thats the case I'll have 2 abs escape 30 this year. I'm not riding one more year without one. my $.02

 

[WARY]

All of the airbags being discussed here pull the user’s shoulders and head to the surface, and all of them do it differently.

When the avalanche first gets started the airbag is up and leading the body down the mountain due to the velocity, the mass of snow that is moving down the hill, and the air that the mass of snow is pushing out in front of slide. Think of the airbag as a kite getting wind out at the front of the air blast/powder cloud. We usually see the airbags push for the sky inside the avalanche; it is a rare avalanche where we don't watch the red airbag zip down the mountain. However, we rarely see the heavier attached body inside the slide. This is because the body weighs more and it has sunk into the moving snow. Depending on the size of the avalanche sometimes the airbag disappears from view, usually to reappear further down the mountain.

When the avalanche begins to slow the dummy and the airbag can assume any position. Larger pieces of snow push the airbag and dummy around at slow speeds, the snow ebbs and flows as it slows, sections of the slide outrun each other causing the airbag to be spun around, all kinds of things happen. Imagine the slowing avalanche as poorly mixed concrete with large rocks, slimy wetter portions, and dryer harder sections. What we have found in our testing is that the person attached to the avalanche airbag can be found uphill of the airbag, downhill of the airbag, face up to the surface, face down in the snow, you name it. We believe that this is due in part to the fact that we are using rigid, plastic crash test dummies. We feel a more supple and struggling human would have a better chance of ending up in a crawling, standing or sitting position on top of the snow.

One more thing we found is that the end of the avalanche is where a large slab or God forbid a huge piece of cornice can roll over and bury an airbag. So it’s not over till it’s over and you should struggle and work for the surface as the avalanche slows and be looking uphill for that last rolling boulder of snow as you come to a stop.

 

[avalanchesafety.ca]

Check out snowpulse.com, or avalanchesafety.ca to read more about the Snowpulse specifically.

 

[Motoman]

GREAT INFORMATION. THANKS EVERYONE FOR ALL THE INPUT. I REALLY THINK A PERSON HAS GOT TO HAVE ONE OF THESE!!

 

[Polar Express]

To WARI and Avalanchesafety.ca:


I'll stick my nose in this one as well:

In the Avy classes I have taken, I have been told the statistics for avy death are ~60% from trauma, ~40% from asphyxiation. If there are newer numbers, I will fully accept the corrected data.

My reason for believing that the airbag packs can help reduce that "Death by trauma" number is simply this: The airbag alters the path you take down the avalanche path - it is designed to push you towards the surface of the slide. This can and will alter the path you take.

Airbag materials are surprisingly puncture resistant. They are designed that way. And, keep in mind, that 3 psi is 3 pounds per square inch. That means that a size 13 boot, say 3.5 inches wide by 12 inches long, covers about 42 square inches, and can withstand 126 pounds of force on that 'footprint'. So, while the whole bag certainly does not feel rigid like even a wheelbarrow tire (13 psi is common), it DOES offer a lot of force, and a pretty large pillow. To illustrate my point, inflate a bag, put the bag in front of your chest, and have the biggest, nastiest dude punch that bag just as hard as he can, even better, have a ninja-type dude kick it. See if you feel that impact of that fist or foot on your chest. Sure, you WILL feel the whole bag push against you, but I'll bet you won't feel knuckles or a foot edge. Even if you do, it will most certainly be lessened. The energy is dispersed to a wider impact zone. This is the same principle as body armor.

Any of our helmets will provide more head protection than the rest of our bodies will likely stand: I believe it only takes like 8-10 pounds of pressure in the right direction to snap our neck.

So, I feel confident that having the horseshoe collar of the Snowpulse around your head and neck will undoubtedly provide an additional layer of cervical protection. (neck protection) For that, I do like the Snowpulse product design. I think the second place for trauma protection from the bag goes to BCA. They have a large pillow that inflates behind your head, offering some passive neck protection. I have not seen a design from ABS other than their 'wings' (there may very well be others, that I just haven't seen), and the 'wing' configuration does little to offer any passive or active cervical protection. Sure, it DOES offer Thoracic (chest) protection, and that is a definite plus.

Anyway, we will likely never have actual numbers, for what kind of trauma one would experience with or without a airbag pack in an avalanche, but I would be willing to argue strongly that at least SP and BCA offer increased levels of cervical protection.

Carry on!
PE

 

[buck50]

my only issue with the snowpluse is ability to move the head once deployed. my buddy has one and i tried it out with my helmet on and i couldn't move my head at all, and my head was forced forward a bit. that's my only real issue with it. i think that as long as people HAVE any avy bag, no matter the type, they are far better off. along with education and common sense of course!

 

[RMX]

Polar Express,
You make a very good point about an airbag absorbing a blow.
However, I would like to comment on the differences between an ABS, a BCA and snowpulse.
Most people looking at an avalanche airbag don't realize that if all the flotation is at the top of your body, that is bad in an avalanche, but great if you were in water. If all the flotation is at the top of your body the user will be in more of a standing position and if the flotation is on the front side you will go down the hill back first. Think about it for a minute. If the airbag is placed along the core of your body it will place you parallel with the avalanche and on the top layer. Thus, you will have far less of a chance of injury.
In 26 years ABS has not had one case of head or neck injury, so these new designs are not really offering you more protection.
I will admit I'm bias, but until you can show me some stats proving otherwise I stand firm with ABS. All I've heard so far is sales pitches to sell product! I have yet to have anyone give me a real viable arguement why one of these two packs would be a safer solution than an ABS!.

 

[bigbird]

I bought an ABS. Didn't want my bag to be built cheap (sorry, you get what you pay for). Second, I didn't want to do someones R&D for them. Only company i have seen doing public R&D is the avi-vest and it is quite impressive what they have shown.