It looks like this year we are going to get some more choices on airbag packs. I was wondering about how each one of them are going to protect against trauma? I read somewhere that 30% of the fatalities in avalanches are from trauma (of course many skiers don't wear helmets so I'm not sure what the percentage of trauma victim fatalities are snowmobilers) So what do you guys think? Which one is the best, or in the end does it matter?
BCA 30 vs ABS vs Snowpulse vs Avi-vest
- Thread starter bfchiro
- Start date
S
snowww1
Well-known member
Analyze the slope before you ride and think of the consequences if it does slide. Will it take you into trees or rocks, over a cliff, or for a long violent ride? Avalanche airbag packs do not offer much protection if you are slammed into trees at 50 mph. There's pros and cons with every avalanche airbag pack design. An avalanche airbag pack is your best chance for surviving an avalanche. It should be used in conjunction with an avalanche beacon and you should have the skills to analyze terrain and stability. Mike Duffy
Well said Mike. Are you conducting a training class at the Denver show? I heard you might be. Took your class in Omaha last year and just may again if you are planning to be there.
Maybe I'm stating the obvious with my short answers. Each pack is unique and offers different features, each of which may be more important than the other to each individual person:
ABS - Proven Effective
SnowPulse - Head Protection
BCA - Economical
AviVest - ??, new this year and I don't know any other information about it.
ABS - Proven Effective
SnowPulse - Head Protection
BCA - Economical
AviVest - ??, new this year and I don't know any other information about it.
exactly!! if this bag is actually gonna be available this year -- where is all the info about it???
C
cowboysedge
Well-known member
From what I understand it is going to be available this year if you have pre ordered it from a BCA dealer. Correct me if I'm wrong!
correct, the bca bag is available as a pre-order. im curious about this avi-vest, from wari research??
S
snowww1
Well-known member
Newmy1,
I'll be having the classes at the Denver Show at the Comfort Inn(hotel in the parking lot of the show) Saturday 9am-1pm or 5pm-9pm,or Sunday 9am-1pm. It will be held in the showroom meeting room. Cost is $40 and includes a discount on avalanche gear. Class has been updated with new techniques, video, powerpoint and equipment. I will cover the pros and cons of different avalanche packs.
Will also be in Omaha on Nov 18th at Leisure Life Sports from 6-10pm. Thanks for the interest. Mike Duffy
I'll be having the classes at the Denver Show at the Comfort Inn(hotel in the parking lot of the show) Saturday 9am-1pm or 5pm-9pm,or Sunday 9am-1pm. It will be held in the showroom meeting room. Cost is $40 and includes a discount on avalanche gear. Class has been updated with new techniques, video, powerpoint and equipment. I will cover the pros and cons of different avalanche packs.
Will also be in Omaha on Nov 18th at Leisure Life Sports from 6-10pm. Thanks for the interest. Mike Duffy
advantages
thanks for the info mike, i have heard your classes are great and you are very knowledgeable. would be interested in some of your thoughts on the backpacks, i think to many people are putting trust in the packs and not in themself i think we have to be smarter and take our selfs out of the risk areas, the same thing beeing said i try and learn as much as i can and practic with the equipment i have trying to be the best preparded. i doo also were an abs pack, hopeing never to have to use it, interested in your thoughts on the packs now availabe pro and cons any thought you have.
thanks
giddyup
thanks for the info mike, i have heard your classes are great and you are very knowledgeable. would be interested in some of your thoughts on the backpacks, i think to many people are putting trust in the packs and not in themself i think we have to be smarter and take our selfs out of the risk areas, the same thing beeing said i try and learn as much as i can and practic with the equipment i have trying to be the best preparded. i doo also were an abs pack, hopeing never to have to use it, interested in your thoughts on the packs now availabe pro and cons any thought you have.
thanks
giddyup
I guess thats why I started this thread to discuss the different packs. Pro's and Con's of all of them. When it comes to Avalanches of course using your brain is #1 and staying out of dangerous areas and knowing conditions, but there are times when things happen. I guess I come at is being prepared for the unexpected.
I think I'll wait and take it again at Bob's...Leisure Life Sports. See you then!
W
WARY
Well-known member
Hey everybody,
We are making the Avi-Vest. We are engineers and mountain professionals in Olympic Valley, California (Squaw) and Lakeville, Minnesota. We have developed the Avi-Vest over the course of the last several years in the mountains of British Columbia, and early on in Nevada (Ruby Mtns) and Alaska.
What we have been doing is strapping our Avi-Vests on life sized crash test dummies and rolling large avalanches over them. Last year in Invermere, BC we rolled 5 seperate avalanches over our dummies and in each case, without swapping out the Avi-Vests, the dummies were floated to the surface of the slide. We also used control dummies without avalanche airbags, which were buried. Bottom line, you cannot bury an avalanche airbag in an avalanche unless you deflate it. Rocks and trees have done this to our tests over the years. Another critical component is the harness, it must hold but it must also give. It took years to perfect this.
We are finally manufacturing the Avi-Vest in the Minnesota labs, and you'll find them at heli-ski operations and elsewhere this winter. We are hitting the road, so look for us in your area.
We are making the Avi-Vest. We are engineers and mountain professionals in Olympic Valley, California (Squaw) and Lakeville, Minnesota. We have developed the Avi-Vest over the course of the last several years in the mountains of British Columbia, and early on in Nevada (Ruby Mtns) and Alaska.
What we have been doing is strapping our Avi-Vests on life sized crash test dummies and rolling large avalanches over them. Last year in Invermere, BC we rolled 5 seperate avalanches over our dummies and in each case, without swapping out the Avi-Vests, the dummies were floated to the surface of the slide. We also used control dummies without avalanche airbags, which were buried. Bottom line, you cannot bury an avalanche airbag in an avalanche unless you deflate it. Rocks and trees have done this to our tests over the years. Another critical component is the harness, it must hold but it must also give. It took years to perfect this.
We are finally manufacturing the Avi-Vest in the Minnesota labs, and you'll find them at heli-ski operations and elsewhere this winter. We are hitting the road, so look for us in your area.
S
snowww1
Well-known member
Things to consider when buying an avalanche airbag pack.
Things to consider when buying an avalanche airbag pack.
Avalanches and other riders are not 100% predictable. Stability tests are not 100% reliable. This and the fact that an avalanche airbag pack is your best chance for surviving an avalanche is why I own one and have been an advocate of them for years. I also alter my riding according to the danger, look at the consequences and escape routes on every slope, practice my skills and have invested thousands of dollars in avalanche education. Riding partners are picked on their avalanche training, skills and mindset.
Here are things I feel you should consider when looking for an avalanche airbag pack for snowmobiling (in no particular order).
Durability: Snowmobilers tend to be hard on packs. We snag trees at speed and put quite a few miles on a pack. Look for materials that will handle this use. I stay away from lightweight materials in packs (they have not held up). Will the pack and critical buckles withstand an avalanche. Does the pack have an integral harness system?
Design/comfort: Look for a pack that fits your body size and will not bounce or move around when riding. A poor fitting pack or a design that sticks out too far behind you will accentuate any movements made and will make for a long day. Curved shoulder straps that will not slip off when side hilling, a pack that doesn’t come up too high and hit your helmet and no extra straps to flap or catch are worth looking at. Do you really need ice axe loops or a ski holder? Carrying skis/snowboard on the sled is much better than on a pack.
Weight: How heavy are the airbag system and the pack?
Deployment: Can you deploy it while still holding the throttle (i.e. handle is on right shoulder strap)? How easy is it to deploy and can you tuck in or secure the handle when not riding in avalanche terrain? When deployed will the bags interfere with operating the sled while you’re trying to outrun the avalanche or get out the side of a moving avalanche.
Reliability/track record: How much testing has been done on the pack before being released? Was it designed by engineers? Was it designed for snowmobilers? What is the track record of the packs in use?
Protection: Will the pack protect you from impact or head injury. One of the studies I read said that fewer snowmobilers are killed from trauma than skiers. No explanation to why. More research needs to be done in this area. Not many people are willing to get caught in an avalanche for research purposes!
Canister Pressure: How easy is it to tell if the canister is fully pressurized and you have a tight seal.
Airbag Volume: Most brands have an airbag volume of 150 liters. If you are a much larger than average rider, you may want to consider a pack with larger volume bags.
Airbag placement: Complicated and much debated subject, but not interfering with riding while trying to outrun or escape is a major consideration for me. Heard stories of bags that deploy lower on the pack help lift the person out of the snow farther thus avoiding injuries and allows them to be able to move while in the slide. The debate about whether the bags will put you face up or face down is interesting. Fact is that 98% of the time the bags or the person will be visible on the surface making for a quick rescue.
One or two airbags: Two bag designs still offer some flotation if one bag rips. They are more expensive to manufacture.
Storage volume: I feel you should have enough storage space in the pack to carry a probe, good size shovel and all the essentials to handle an accident or night out. All the essentials should be stored in the pack and not on the sled. Here’s the reason why: What if you and your riding partner are caught in a slide, he and his sled along with your sled are buried. You’re on the surface but your shovel, probe, first aid kit, fire starter, extra gloves, etc. are buried with the sled. You are of little or no help to the buried person. Pack storage volume should be between 20 and 30 liters. No one ever plans their accidents and help is usually a long ways away.
Note: If you have an airbag pack, it’s a great idea to carry an extra shovel on the sled so you do not have to take off the avalanche airbag pack to access your shovel when you are in avalanche terrain.
Cost: Everyone’s life is worth the cost of even the most expensive pack, but in reality it’s not in everyone’s budget. It’s great to see the cost of the packs coming down, making avalanche airbag technology available to a larger group of riders. Look at the packs carefully, higher cost on some models does not necessarily mean it’s a better design. Any avalanche airbag pack is better than none at all. Use it in conjunction with a beacon, shovel, probe and avalanche training. I feel in 5 years it will be standard equipment for all serious riders. It still amazes me that only 50% of all riders carry beacons.
What do I use? I purchased an ABS Vario 30 three winters ago. There’s been quite a few new brands and designs introduced since then. I have been involved with giving some input with the new BCA Float 30 and I’m very impressed with the design, features and testing they have done.
We will be at Hay Days with avalanche packs. Please stop by if you have any questions, booth E28.
There’s much more to an avalanche pack than just buying one. You have to know when to deploy it, what to do when caught, how to best try to get out of an avalanche, etc. This is all covered in the classes I teach along with videos on how they work and photos of actual deployments in avalanches.
Hope this information helps in deciding on a pack. Mike Duffy
Things to consider when buying an avalanche airbag pack.
Avalanches and other riders are not 100% predictable. Stability tests are not 100% reliable. This and the fact that an avalanche airbag pack is your best chance for surviving an avalanche is why I own one and have been an advocate of them for years. I also alter my riding according to the danger, look at the consequences and escape routes on every slope, practice my skills and have invested thousands of dollars in avalanche education. Riding partners are picked on their avalanche training, skills and mindset.
Here are things I feel you should consider when looking for an avalanche airbag pack for snowmobiling (in no particular order).
Durability: Snowmobilers tend to be hard on packs. We snag trees at speed and put quite a few miles on a pack. Look for materials that will handle this use. I stay away from lightweight materials in packs (they have not held up). Will the pack and critical buckles withstand an avalanche. Does the pack have an integral harness system?
Design/comfort: Look for a pack that fits your body size and will not bounce or move around when riding. A poor fitting pack or a design that sticks out too far behind you will accentuate any movements made and will make for a long day. Curved shoulder straps that will not slip off when side hilling, a pack that doesn’t come up too high and hit your helmet and no extra straps to flap or catch are worth looking at. Do you really need ice axe loops or a ski holder? Carrying skis/snowboard on the sled is much better than on a pack.
Weight: How heavy are the airbag system and the pack?
Deployment: Can you deploy it while still holding the throttle (i.e. handle is on right shoulder strap)? How easy is it to deploy and can you tuck in or secure the handle when not riding in avalanche terrain? When deployed will the bags interfere with operating the sled while you’re trying to outrun the avalanche or get out the side of a moving avalanche.
Reliability/track record: How much testing has been done on the pack before being released? Was it designed by engineers? Was it designed for snowmobilers? What is the track record of the packs in use?
Protection: Will the pack protect you from impact or head injury. One of the studies I read said that fewer snowmobilers are killed from trauma than skiers. No explanation to why. More research needs to be done in this area. Not many people are willing to get caught in an avalanche for research purposes!
Canister Pressure: How easy is it to tell if the canister is fully pressurized and you have a tight seal.
Airbag Volume: Most brands have an airbag volume of 150 liters. If you are a much larger than average rider, you may want to consider a pack with larger volume bags.
Airbag placement: Complicated and much debated subject, but not interfering with riding while trying to outrun or escape is a major consideration for me. Heard stories of bags that deploy lower on the pack help lift the person out of the snow farther thus avoiding injuries and allows them to be able to move while in the slide. The debate about whether the bags will put you face up or face down is interesting. Fact is that 98% of the time the bags or the person will be visible on the surface making for a quick rescue.
One or two airbags: Two bag designs still offer some flotation if one bag rips. They are more expensive to manufacture.
Storage volume: I feel you should have enough storage space in the pack to carry a probe, good size shovel and all the essentials to handle an accident or night out. All the essentials should be stored in the pack and not on the sled. Here’s the reason why: What if you and your riding partner are caught in a slide, he and his sled along with your sled are buried. You’re on the surface but your shovel, probe, first aid kit, fire starter, extra gloves, etc. are buried with the sled. You are of little or no help to the buried person. Pack storage volume should be between 20 and 30 liters. No one ever plans their accidents and help is usually a long ways away.
Note: If you have an airbag pack, it’s a great idea to carry an extra shovel on the sled so you do not have to take off the avalanche airbag pack to access your shovel when you are in avalanche terrain.
Cost: Everyone’s life is worth the cost of even the most expensive pack, but in reality it’s not in everyone’s budget. It’s great to see the cost of the packs coming down, making avalanche airbag technology available to a larger group of riders. Look at the packs carefully, higher cost on some models does not necessarily mean it’s a better design. Any avalanche airbag pack is better than none at all. Use it in conjunction with a beacon, shovel, probe and avalanche training. I feel in 5 years it will be standard equipment for all serious riders. It still amazes me that only 50% of all riders carry beacons.
What do I use? I purchased an ABS Vario 30 three winters ago. There’s been quite a few new brands and designs introduced since then. I have been involved with giving some input with the new BCA Float 30 and I’m very impressed with the design, features and testing they have done.
We will be at Hay Days with avalanche packs. Please stop by if you have any questions, booth E28.
There’s much more to an avalanche pack than just buying one. You have to know when to deploy it, what to do when caught, how to best try to get out of an avalanche, etc. This is all covered in the classes I teach along with videos on how they work and photos of actual deployments in avalanches.
Hope this information helps in deciding on a pack. Mike Duffy
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great insight/comments mike. thanks for the input!!
Great Post Mike, Thanks
Mike's (snowww1) is a great person to get avalanche safety information from.
Mike, will you or SnowBigDeal have some avy bags at the Denver snow show? I'd like to see the price on the BCA 3.0 pack. You hit the nail on the head with the pricing. Our lives are worth much more than the price of the pack, but $1000 is a lot of money. I want to get one, but I also want to find the right size and pack. See you at the Denver show.
Mike, will you or SnowBigDeal have some avy bags at the Denver snow show? I'd like to see the price on the BCA 3.0 pack. You hit the nail on the head with the pricing. Our lives are worth much more than the price of the pack, but $1000 is a lot of money. I want to get one, but I also want to find the right size and pack. See you at the Denver show.
In terms of trauma protection, as Snowbigdeal highlighted, the Snowpulse was designed with this specifically in mind. Here are some stats:
- In North America over the last 21 years 25% of avalanche fatalities have been caused by trauma.
- Of the avalanche victims who died from asphyxiation (burial) many of those also sustained traumatic injuries.
- Of the 25% of trauma related avalanche deaths, 90% were due to head and chest injuries.
So, if trauma protection is an important feature to you. And the stats show that it is something to consider. Snowpulse is the only airbag which has been designed specifically to reduce truama to the head and chest.
Last year a heliski guide wearing the Snowpulse was caught in an avalanche where he was dragged through trees and over a cliff. The slide was not big enough to bury him but was very fast moving and violent. He, as well as his doctors attribute his survival to the Snowpulse which reduced injuries to his head and protected his chest and neck. In the avalanche the cylinder was completely torn off where it attaches, however the airbag stayed fully inflated, as Wari points out airbags don't puncture easily. We hope to have the interview with the guide up on our site in a couple of weeks. He is also writing an article for avalanche.ca, the Canadian Avalanche Association's journal.
All the airbag manufacturers make good products and the safety of backcountry users is at the forefront of all these efforts. Wearing an airbag is a very good call when combined with educated decision making in the backcountry. Considering that trauma plays such a large role in avalanche fatalities, the Snowpulse has proven to be worth it because of its patented trauma protection. The main reason other airbag manufactures are not making airbags with truama protection that covers your thorax (ribs and lungs) is because of patent infringement, cost, and it's difficulty to manufacture.
NOTE 1: When the Snowpulse is deployed you can still see where you are going keep your hands on the handlebars in order to attempt to ride out of the avalanche.
NOTE 2: When the Snowpulse is deployed and you are tumbling in the slide the shape of the airbag keeps you head up instead of face down.
- In North America over the last 21 years 25% of avalanche fatalities have been caused by trauma.
- Of the avalanche victims who died from asphyxiation (burial) many of those also sustained traumatic injuries.
- Of the 25% of trauma related avalanche deaths, 90% were due to head and chest injuries.
So, if trauma protection is an important feature to you. And the stats show that it is something to consider. Snowpulse is the only airbag which has been designed specifically to reduce truama to the head and chest.
Last year a heliski guide wearing the Snowpulse was caught in an avalanche where he was dragged through trees and over a cliff. The slide was not big enough to bury him but was very fast moving and violent. He, as well as his doctors attribute his survival to the Snowpulse which reduced injuries to his head and protected his chest and neck. In the avalanche the cylinder was completely torn off where it attaches, however the airbag stayed fully inflated, as Wari points out airbags don't puncture easily. We hope to have the interview with the guide up on our site in a couple of weeks. He is also writing an article for avalanche.ca, the Canadian Avalanche Association's journal.
All the airbag manufacturers make good products and the safety of backcountry users is at the forefront of all these efforts. Wearing an airbag is a very good call when combined with educated decision making in the backcountry. Considering that trauma plays such a large role in avalanche fatalities, the Snowpulse has proven to be worth it because of its patented trauma protection. The main reason other airbag manufactures are not making airbags with truama protection that covers your thorax (ribs and lungs) is because of patent infringement, cost, and it's difficulty to manufacture.
NOTE 1: When the Snowpulse is deployed you can still see where you are going keep your hands on the handlebars in order to attempt to ride out of the avalanche.
NOTE 2: When the Snowpulse is deployed and you are tumbling in the slide the shape of the airbag keeps you head up instead of face down.
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pac info
great post mike thanks agian for your insight also thanks chuck for you info and knowledge on the snowpulse. i think we all agree that education is farmost inportant but the aid of a avalanche airbag system helps . That is why we all belive in them one style or another. Safe riding this year guys
giddyup
great post mike thanks agian for your insight also thanks chuck for you info and knowledge on the snowpulse. i think we all agree that education is farmost inportant but the aid of a avalanche airbag system helps . That is why we all belive in them one style or another. Safe riding this year guys
giddyup
N
Nubulin
Well-known member
I just bought an ABS freeride from SnowBigDeal at HayDays. I have been looking hard at all of them for a couple years and finally pulled the trigger.
The snowpulse looks like a very nice unit as well, but for me it came down to proven technology. Plus the freeride fit me the best.
Its great that there are more and more options out there. That will drive the cost down for all of us. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.
The biggest issue I see is people taking more risks because they have the bag.
The snowpulse looks like a very nice unit as well, but for me it came down to proven technology. Plus the freeride fit me the best.
Its great that there are more and more options out there. That will drive the cost down for all of us. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.
The biggest issue I see is people taking more risks because they have the bag.
Which pack is the one that can be filled at a dive shop? (I think there was one....?)
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