Auto bailout talks collapse over union wages

[Schism]

I don't understand why you guys seem to want to hang the unions. This is not a union problem. It is a CEO problem. The unions have a responsibility to protect the workers. $70.00 bucks an hour for wages and benefits is not greedy if the CEO's get to make $5,770.00 an hour.

If we fixed the CEO greed we may not have a union problem. What has to be decided is how much should a CEO be able to make (if any) up and above what they pay the workers? The fact is you could can 90% of all GM management not re-hire and the company would roll on without a hitch. If you canned 10% of the workers the company would fail if you did not re-hire.

CEO greed is bankrupting companies right and left. I have a hard time blaming a union that wants it's workers to make 1.2% of what it's CEO's make.

I have been the CEO of a small company for 20 years. My compensation and benefits have never, nor will they ever exceed my lowest paid employee by more then 30%. Many times the board has voted to increase my compensation. I only let this happen if every employee can get the same increase. Last year I had two W2 employees who made more money than I did. I let this happen because the truth is I only work about 1/3 as much as they do. They earned it. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I just believe this is honest and fair. If every company were to do the same it would level the playing field for all Americans and we would not be facing the problems we face today.

You are correct on one part; The CEO's are being paid way to much to run these companies into the ground. Would their salary be to high if they brought in 63 billion in profits last quarter? I believe strongly in "you get what you pay for." If I wanted somone to run a multi-billion dollar company, I had better be prepared to pay him more than $70/hour in wages and benefits! Kudos to you for putting the employees and the company first, that is a very good way to run a successful company for many years...I wish more were like you!

The part where I think you are wrong is in thinking that an enormous CEO salary can break these large, multi-billion dollar companies. One person making a couple million to much each year doesn't hold a candle to tens of thousands of employees sucking the company dry in wages and benefits. Kinda like a lot of small snowflakes adding up to bottomless powder! ;D

I work for a company in which all employee contracts are bargained by the union. In my short time here I have seen the union act in ways that benefit THE UNION first and foremost. They only protect their paying members when they can direcly benefit from it!

-Schism

 

[Schism]

explain to me how, exactly, the oil prices going up helped start the recession.

When oil prices went up, the price of gasoline went up as well. Americans then began looking at the vehicles they drove and realized they don't get great fuel economy. (I drive a F350 4x4, I understand). The big 3 had made much of their profits by selling large pickups and suv's and failed to develop their fuel efficient lines like the foreign companies did.

Those that could afford new vehicles sold or traded their old gas guzzlers off for something more fuel effecient. Lots of those fuel efficient vehicles are smaller vehicles made by foreign owned companies that do not focus on making pickups and SUV's. ie, Toyota, Honda, etc. This hurt the American car manufacturers and forced them into looking at hybrid development and the cost of retooling some of their factories. This all lead to a loss of sales and an increase in costs.

Here is one of many real life examples I have witnessed. A guy I know traded in his big Cadillac for a Honda made hybrid. He also sold his Dodge diesel and bought his wife a new Toyota Camry. Two cars from American companies sold and two new cars made by foreign owned companies purchased. This guy had owned Caddy's for years and it killed him to get rid of it but he said he wanted something more efficient.

The high oil prices were only one piece of a very large puzzle but they did not do Detroit any favors!

-Schism

 

[U81I812]

The big 3 have been losing money well before the market crash and $4 gas. Over the past 4 years GM alone lost over 70 Billion dollars.

Here's another on for ya, in 2007 GM and Toyota sold approximatly the same amount of vehicles. In 2007 Toy made 17 Billion, GM lost 26 Billion.

GM sells a bunch of vehicles every year, THEY SHOULD MAKE MONEY.

Two big reasons they don't make money:

1 - The obvious, it cost them more to make a vehicle.
2 - The one people don't talk about, American's won't pay enough money for the big 3's vehicles for them to make a profit. The big 3 need to discount their stuff $3000 dollars more per vehicle than Toyota to get a sale.
(Just love the guy who says I support GM and they got 9K off the price of there truck in the same sentance. THEY LOST MONEY OFF OF YOU, that's not support).

Add the two together and Toy makes 5 to 6K more per vehicle than the big three.

They need to start over and be small.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER give money to a junkie.

 

[Dano702]

I just saw the president of the UAW on the news , that guy thinks he has nothing to do with any of this . The UAW is the only thing pure or clean in the whole world , i just wanted to punch the guy in the mouth.

I hope the big 3 get zero dollars from the tax payers . The UAW has been on the gravy train for way to long . Just the concept of a "Job Bank" tells the whole story . Can anyone name any small business that pays employee's to not work?

Chapter 11 is what they need . And the UAW needs to be shown to the door. I am sure Toyota will be happy to hire all of those hard working guys.

I love to hear all of the horror stories about what will happen if we dont waste Billions , time to call there bluff .


LET THEM GO BANKRUPT !!! They earned it.

 

[GMCRMK]

If they go chapter 11 there is no coming back and many, many businesses & people will be ruined.

 

[Dano702]

If they go chapter 11 there is no coming back and many, many businesses & people will be ruined.

So we should spend billions of dollars we dont have ? China is going to own this whole place coast to coast . They need to go away , it is called free market capitolism .


They did it to themself , they earned it.



I am sure it will be for the best , dont worry there are thousands of unsold cars and trucks already built . Should be plenty for at least a year .


What is that old saying ?


You sleep in the bed you make.

 

[V-Man]

Here is one of many real life examples I have witnessed. A guy I know traded in his big Cadillac for a Honda made hybrid. He also sold his Dodge diesel and bought his wife a new Toyota Camry. Two cars from American companies sold and two new cars made by foreign owned companies purchased. This guy had owned Caddy's for years and it killed him to get rid of it but he said he wanted something more efficient.
-Schism

I bet this guy is kicking himself now. Not only did he waste money on new cars, but he got forced out of driving cars that he loved, which also probably fit his lifestyle better. Gas feels dirt cheap now.

 

[Ollie]

The Unions went to DC and more or less told everyone tough chit. We will keep everything.
So they don't want to reduce wages and benifits, fire the lot and start over under chapter 11.
30% less wage is better than NO wage.

It's time to wake these idiots up.

 

[Weekday Warrior]

The white house is going to bail them out with TARP funds, even though the bailout failed.

mostly because of the soaring jobless counts...If the big 3 fail it isn't just contained to those 3 companies.....but thousands in direct support of the big three and even more indirect.


can really afford to loose so many jobs right now.


We need to bail them out, force a restructure, and charge duty on foriegn vehicles and foreign parts to insure we get our money paid back.

Then open back up to free market.

 

[TS Drag Racer]

I bet this guy is kicking himself now. Not only did he waste money on new cars, but he got forced out of driving cars that he loved, which also probably fit his lifestyle better. Gas feels dirt cheap now.

Only way gas will stay cheap, is if guys like him stick too their guns. The minute everybody lets their guard down and jumps back into their gas guzzlers, racking up the miles, will be the day we see $4.50 a gallon gasoline again.

Far as the big three go, F#c*EM! Time they clean their house, starting with the Ceo's! Also need to get labor costs inline with Honda, toyota,etc. This whole bailout b#llch!t is making me sick to my stomache, enough already!!!

 

[Greg B.]

the sad thing is what GM did. They dropped their plug in car they had developed. If they would have kept thing around they would be light years ahead of everyone else and probably have the best selling car on the market today. and get full retail for it. jack asses had to go for the short term profit of suvs and be greedy. I don't feel bad for them. I do feel bad for my many family members that work for them though.

 

[Supplicate]

When oil prices went up, the price of gasoline went up as well. Americans then began looking at the vehicles they drove and realized they don't get great fuel economy. (I drive a F350 4x4, I understand).

You need to draw a distinction here between what caused the recession and what was merely another sign of the recession. The oil prices in no way "caused" the recession, they were merely the herald of the recession. It was the last straw on this camels back. People couldn't deny it anymore when it was slapping them in the face every time they went to the fuel pump.

 

[Supplicate]

charge duty on foriegn vehicles and foreign parts

wow... just... wow.

Come on everybody, lets go back to the 50's!!!!

Do you really want to set the auto industry back 20-30 years? Do you realize how many foreign parts are in these "American made" autos?

 

[Threadkiller]

This is an interesting read:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/12/12/zakaria.autobailout/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

The main reason to bail out the Big 3 (if only a temporary solution to reorganization)....drum roll please-

It's a temp. work program until other "make-work" programs can be implemented. Seriously, has anyone ever spent their way into prosperity?

We are going to have to let some of these poorly-run banks, insurance co.'s, car companies and investment firms fail and let innovative, well-managed, smaller companies come in and pick up the mantle. This is an opportunity for better-run companies that is being messed-up by the politicians in Washington. Want proof- all you had to do was listen to the congressional hearing a couple of weeks back where it was revealed that a large bank (forgot who) used bail-out money to buy-out (take over) a smaller, well run bank that wasn't given the competative advantage of federal bail-out money.

my $.02

 

[swampwater]

Actually some figures I saw showed that the american foreign car workers take home about $2.00 per hour more than the big 3 workers, its the benefits and legacy costs that makes up the differance. When you have retirees making full wages for not working and laid off workers being paid 75% of their wages for 2 years there is a huge payout for people who produce nothing for the company. I heard that there are 2 retirees being paid for every worker actually producing no wonder they are going broke. No matter how you feel about unions reason logic and common sense dictates these practices cannot continue if the companies are to become profitable, whic will not happen if they are bailed out and not allowed to file chapter 11. Swampy

 

[Fosgate]

Do you guys listen to yourself. Get rid of the retirement? So if the company you work for is no longer competitive it's ok if they axe your retirement then too right?? How bought Congress acutally grab their balls and protect the domestic product for once! Capitalism is fine but you don't let other contries come in a buy up your infrastructure and employ a large percentage of your labor force. How bout if we give them this loan we treat Toyota and other imports like Japan treats american auto makers in their county. (They won't let them in!) The foreign auto makers have such a young workforce in terms of % or retirees etc. Washington needs to act like a government should and protect the domestic product and get it going out, not importing foregn product with no return. Competitive, how bout we level the unfair advantage that these foreign companies have of very few if not any retirees to pay for. Empose taxes on them that make them try to compete with OUR product HERE!

 

[milehighassassin]

i didn't read the article but i heard today that the workers make 3 times what toyota and honda workers make. no wonder the fawkers are broke. let them go under or restructure big time

Not exactly. The ACTUAL WORKERS pretty much the same as Toyota and Honda.

Breakdown:

Non-UAW plant.

Average hourly pay - $26-$27/hr
Benefits paid to employees - $17-$18/hr
Annual Bonus (Toyota KN plant) $6000-$8000
Total - approx $49-$50/hr to keep current employees

UAW plant.

Average Hourly pay - $27/hr
Benefits (current employees) - Estimated $15-$18/hr
Profit Sharing - Not paid for three years going
Benefits for pensions/union guarantees from Big Three - $30/hr approx Total - $70-$75/hr

The benefits for old workers is what is killing the Big 3 right now.

 

[JDKZRT]

I believe there's more to it than the wage difference.
You also have to factor in exactly HOW MUCH work the average hourly employee accomplishes during this 'hour' of work.
I have seen studies showing the physical 'hours that go into manufacturing a Honda/Toyota (etc.) vehicles are a FRACTION of the hours that go into building most big 3 vehicles.
The problem with these big unions is the level and quantity of work rises to the lowest common denominator of union members in the factory (notice Milehigh's example of the Toyota bonus).
.... flame away Union bros.

 

[Tearupamountain]

Honestly fellas i fancy myself a patriot but i won't own another domestic vehicle again until they start building something decent. I have an 06 F-150 that sits in my shop that nobody drives waiting for the lease to end because it's too big of a pain in the *** to take it to the dealer everytime something goes wrong. Which by the way is often. I drive a Tundra that was assembled right here in the good old USofA. My wife drives a 4runner that probably wasn't but we have had no problems with either vehicle. I love my Toyotas

 

[swampwater]

Well I don't own a vehicle with under 200,000 miles at this point and they are all GM. None have given me any problems, no engine work, no tranny work only maintenance. My s10 blazer, 94, still gets 19 mpg highway and has 217,000, my safari has 220,000 and has never been apart also, my old 88 astrovan went to 248,000 and lost a head gasket, would have fixed but did not have time. My wife has owned 3 hondas, not one ever hit 200,000 before we had to give up on them, she now has a yota with 200,000 on it and runs but always has little crap going wrong, I think I would rather rebuild an engine than spend hours tracking down some of these little problems that keep taking up my time. Swampy

Honestly fellas i fancy myself a patriot but i won't own another domestic vehicle again until they start building something decent. I have an 06 F-150 that sits in my shop that nobody drives waiting for the lease to end because it's too big of a pain in the *** to take it to the dealer everytime something goes wrong. Which by the way is often. I drive a Tundra that was assembled right here in the good old USofA. My wife drives a 4runner that probably wasn't but we have had no problems with either vehicle. I love my Toyotas