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DD... I think the Horses days are numbered anyway... the new catch phrase in the Wilderness is "Human Powered".
Recently, kiteboarding/kiteskiing has been oulawed in some Wilderness areas.. as has mountainbiking... It is still "human powered"... but is "mechanized". Kind of splitting hairs as ski touring is mechanized as well even though the mechanism (skis) are human powered...
Human powerd ski mechanisms... Human powered bike mechanisms.... I have bindings on my bike and bindings on my Skis....Hmmmmmm????
Maybe that would be a good thing... if the folks in charge of the wilderness keep trying to lock it up tighter and tighter, they may just pi$$-off enough people that there will be a united movement to have the whole wilderness program and its limitations brought under scrutiny and eased off.
I can understand not logging, mining, or building new roads in a wilderness area, but whats wrong with maintaining open recreational access to all the people of this nation?
I guess that would just be too 'nice'...
"The other issue revolves around areas that are legal for snowmobiling that we have skied for decades, where snowmobiles not long ago did not go. Now with the fantastic new machines, snowmobiles can eat up the areas that we could ski not long ago because snowmobiles could not go there in the past. We understand how offensive it is for snowmobile riders to consider losing terrain, please imagine how it is now with the rutting, and the usual other issues, for skiers who until just 2-3 years ago saw a lot more untracked Forest areas to ski, between the snowmobile tracked areas."
This is BS! People have been riding snowmobiles into these areas since 1985. The cry that snomo trenches ruin your ski terrain is weak at best. The majority of snowmobiling occurs on intermediate slopes by a skiing standard. Sell your sled, head back to Stevens, learn some skills, and then go back to snowmobile assisted skiing. I just don't see how snowmobile tracks ruin any decent skiers experience. The two actually go hand-in-hand quite nicely!
I snowmobile and BC ski/snowboard, frequent the areas under scrutiny (particularly Scotty Creek) and do believe riding in the wilderness is a genuine concern, if for no other reason than maintaining our current access.
In Scotty:
I haven't noticed a huge increase in poaching. (although there is a group that can't seem to resist dropping into Hardscrabble, which sucks, and the 50 yards over the boundary down Falls Creek, which I find extremely difficult to get worked up about...) There are orange wilderness signs as of April this year in at least a few spots along the boundary between Three Brothers and Earl, which I might add mysteriously moved a ridge line East about 7-8 years ago...reducing our riding area...WTF? I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee!
Maybe that would be a good thing... if the folks in charge of the wilderness keep trying to lock it up tighter and tighter, they may just pi$$-off enough people that there will be a united movement to have the whole wilderness program and its limitations brought under scrutiny and eased off.
I can understand not logging, mining, or building new roads in a wilderness area, but whats wrong with maintaining open recreational access to all the people of this nation?
I guess that would just be too 'nice'...
The Wilderness prohibitions include wheels, motors, landing aircraft like parasails, and etc..
Quote- - "but whats wrong with maintaining open recreational access to all the people of this nation?." Yes, sir, this is the point! Bravo!
Wilderness is not accessible for most of the non-motorized winter Forest users. Therefore, these folks ski, snowshoe, and camp often closer to the car. Yes, some of us use snowmobiles or go overnight to Wilderness. It is a flaw in the design that the closest Forest to cars is mostly used by snowmobiles, and the Wilderness except in a few places is hours away when walking on skis or snowshoes.
The other part of the issue is increasing areas used by snowmobiles in non-Wilderness Forest. Back in the day 15 to 20 years ago, and 1 or 2 years ago in some places, we parked our sleds and had most of the off-road snow for skiing. With new technology, snowmobiles routinely climb 30 degrees and steeper I have seen tracks commonly on 38 degree slopes all of the time and tracks on nearly all of the available snow in some areas. So now we 'share' rutted snow. The last two years I observed that snowmobile riders follow my ski track from a stash up above the trees, the snowmobile climbs the cut bank off of the road, follows my ski track up through the trees and finds a new play area. Then it is a snowmobile area, rutted and not good skiing, not to mention other safety conflicts between skiers and snowmobiles on the same slope.
We are asking to get some terrain given back for winter non-motorized areas. WMC states over and over we are not anti-snowmobile, we just do not want to be on the same slopes as snowmobiles, so we ask for some designated winter non-motorized areas.
Thank you very much for the discussion.
I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee!
I was afraid that might be the most noticeable outcome from all this.......
Congratulations WMC (and Randonee), you've brought more attention to this area, and singlehandedly brought more new sleds into 'your' area than we've done in the past 10 years. By 'we', I mean the small handful of sledders that know and ride this area on a regular basis.
I've tried to take part in a civil and constructive conversation here. It's disappointing to see WMC take quotes from these threads to other message boards and portray them as the 'voice of the snowmobiler'. I see the same quote about the one day when they saw 7 sleds in Wilderness; and the same letter from Mr. Foss addressing the problem. The same addresses posted to encourage anyone and everyone to write the USFS. Obviously WMC is aware that 90% of these letters will be from people who never have and never will ski this area. The letters will come from people who view sledders as the stinky, redneck, bad guys. This same info is now posted on any message board where WMC thinks he can get support.
The same rhetoric is getting old. 'Incompatible', 'give back', 'rutted', 'chopped up'. I will gladly accompany WMC and any of his companions any day of their choice next winter. I guarantee that we can find more lines than we can ski in a day, untracked by snowmobile. This fabricated user conflict is starting to tire me out.
Wilderness violations are a different issue. As I've said a dozen times, I fully support any effort to curb this problem. A group of us are already working together to get more signage in problem areas. There is a significant group of us who will no longer look the other way when we see evidence of sleds in Wilderness. Hopefully poachers will start to think twice. This is the only 'real' problem that exists in the Teanaway.
I was afraid that might be the most noticeable outcome from all this.......
Congratulations WMC (and Randonee), you've brought more attention to this area, and singlehandedly brought more new sleds into 'your' area than we've done in the past 10 years. By 'we', I mean the small handful of sledders that know and ride this area on a regular basis.
I've tried to take part in a civil and constructive conversation here. It's disappointing to see WMC take quotes from these threads to other message boards and portray them as the 'voice of the snowmobiler'. I see the same quote about the one day when they saw 7 sleds in Wilderness; and the same letter from Mr. Foss addressing the problem. The same addresses posted to encourage anyone and everyone to write the USFS. Obviously WMC is aware that 90% of these letters will be from people who never have and never will ski this area. The letters will come from people who view sledders as the stinky, redneck, bad guys. This same info is now posted on any message board where WMC thinks he can get support.
The same rhetoric is getting old. 'Incompatible', 'give back', 'rutted', 'chopped up'. I will gladly accompany WMC and any of his companions any day of their choice next winter. I guarantee that we can find more lines than we can ski in a day, untracked by snowmobile. This fabricated user conflict is starting to tire me out.
Wilderness violations are a different issue. As I've said a dozen times, I fully support any effort to curb this problem. A group of us are already working together to get more signage in problem areas. There is a significant group of us who will no longer look the other way when we see evidence of sleds in Wilderness. Hopefully poachers will start to think twice. This is the only 'real' problem that exists in the Teanaway.
My friend from Pine St, in the late 80's I and some friends skied many days through the winter in Stafford and Brothers/ Navaho, and at Longs less. We never encountered tracks or snowmobiles in Stafford and Brothers. We do go in there now every year, not as much as before there was so much snowmobile traffic. Of course you may not see us, we make few tracks and no noise and it is not like we are going to ski out in front of you!
In our discussions at USFS it is pretty clear that significant Wilderness poaching in the area occurs, it is not just a few who see that.
It looked like a different wind pattern from el nino last year allowed easier access since the Iron Mtn Rd behind Miller did not drift in so much. On our tour we saw probably 20 machines below Navaho and Brothers in Etienne Cr, all having fun on a great day. And tracks in Wilderness when we skied off of Navaho into Falls Cr.
Because of increased area of snowmobile use in recent years, more terrain is taken from skiers and snowshoers, and winter campers. We are asking for some areas without snowmobiles that are good for our uses. That is the total agenda.
Thank you.
I was afraid that might be the most noticeable outcome from all this.......
Congratulations WMC (and Randonee), you've brought more attention to this area, and singlehandedly brought more new sleds into 'your' area than we've done in the past 10 years. By 'we', I mean the small handful of sledders that know and ride this area on a regular basis.
I've tried to take part in a civil and constructive conversation here. It's disappointing to see WMC take quotes from these threads to other message boards and portray them as the 'voice of the snowmobiler'. I see the same quote about the one day when they saw 7 sleds in Wilderness; and the same letter from Mr. Foss addressing the problem. The same addresses posted to encourage anyone and everyone to write the USFS. Obviously WMC is aware that 90% of these letters will be from people who never have and never will ski this area. The letters will come from people who view sledders as the stinky, redneck, bad guys. This same info is now posted on any message board where WMC thinks he can get support.
The same rhetoric is getting old. 'Incompatible', 'give back', 'rutted', 'chopped up'. I will gladly accompany WMC and any of his companions any day of their choice next winter. I guarantee that we can find more lines than we can ski in a day, untracked by snowmobile. This fabricated user conflict is starting to tire me out.
Wilderness violations are a different issue. As I've said a dozen times, I fully support any effort to curb this problem. A group of us are already working together to get more signage in problem areas. There is a significant group of us who will no longer look the other way when we see evidence of sleds in Wilderness. Hopefully poachers will start to think twice. This is the only 'real' problem that exists in the Teanaway.
That my friend had me laughing my arse offmaybe they just want a closed safe area to smoke wacky weed?.