Are current mt. sleds too far rider forward?
- Thread starter AKrider
- Start date
The first sled had no rider, therefore arguing the outcome is meaningless. the Rev went into a tankslapper through the ruts as most everyone I've ever rode with with will attest to as real. The cat went airborne, therefore arguing how it handles ruts is mute. As far as teaching an old dog new tricks, why should a person have to learn new tricks if the advantages of the outcome may be perceived by many as a step backwards. I started sledding on a bogie wheeled 340cc leaf spring Moto-Ski. It rode like crap but was very rideable after a few minutes on the sled. I graduated to a free air suspensionless El-Tigre, it ran great, handled satisfactory and was fun to ride. I owned a early version Polaris Indy, Yamaha Phaser, Wedge Polaris's, Edge Polaris, VE Polaris. I rode V-Max Yami's, and virtually every sled made since 1969. I thought they were all very rideable and had pro's and con's. Then some of us old dogs jumped on a Rev one day and said WTF is that and WhoTF thought it should become a mountain sled. Through what I think is absolute marketing genius they became a success. I'm still mystified that rider forward caught on in the mountain segment and am still mystified that the other manufacturers felt they had to follow. I've followed some very experienced old dogs through the woods on their new XP's, it makes for a very interesting day because some of these guys used to be able to ride and suddenly it appears they're sh!t faced drunk. Very funny, sad, but true. I've been extremely open minded about technological advancements but I'm still baffled they've become the rage. 
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I think someone hit the nail on the head with the, new sleds go up better, and old sleds go down better. Nobody really cares about going down, its all about the mark you leave
I definately know the rev chassis sucks going downhill as all your weight is on the ski's, you just have to get back on it.
I started sledding on a Rev chassis and now when i hop on the older sleds I really cant ride them, just like others going forwards. Its not all bad, its just way different and we have adapted our personal riding to them.
I really like rider forward as long as it has a well setup skid. I messed around with my rev's suspension for a while trying way different setups every day, and i could make it handle amazing or it was like you couldnt turn or sidehill the thing unless you wer 300+ pounds and had some 2 foot risers on it. I got it dialed and it lays over like i cant beleive. I really like the rider forward when climbing, as I just plant my feet just back from the footwels hold them tight and can make the sled do pretty much anything I want from a very neutral position and not a ton of rider input at all.
as far as some thinking the XP and Rev suck to sidehill, much can be atributed to the 16 wide track, it DOES make the sled want to be upright way more, and i think this combined with doo being the only super rider forward and the 16 wide tracks makes some of the 16 wides cons look like rider forward cons. just some more thoughts.
I definately know the rev chassis sucks going downhill as all your weight is on the ski's, you just have to get back on it.
I started sledding on a Rev chassis and now when i hop on the older sleds I really cant ride them, just like others going forwards. Its not all bad, its just way different and we have adapted our personal riding to them.
I really like rider forward as long as it has a well setup skid. I messed around with my rev's suspension for a while trying way different setups every day, and i could make it handle amazing or it was like you couldnt turn or sidehill the thing unless you wer 300+ pounds and had some 2 foot risers on it. I got it dialed and it lays over like i cant beleive. I really like the rider forward when climbing, as I just plant my feet just back from the footwels hold them tight and can make the sled do pretty much anything I want from a very neutral position and not a ton of rider input at all.
as far as some thinking the XP and Rev suck to sidehill, much can be atributed to the 16 wide track, it DOES make the sled want to be upright way more, and i think this combined with doo being the only super rider forward and the 16 wide tracks makes some of the 16 wides cons look like rider forward cons. just some more thoughts.
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IDAHO HOT SHOT
Well-known member
In regards to the video, I really dont think that the snow ruts are the problem. I dont see any numbers on these guys back, and they aren't climbing Snow King. Im pretty sure that the root of the problem is ROCK PILES, hello!!! for gods sake, just wait for a little more snow, you deserve to wreck climbing that $hit. The last 2 riders were pretty fair, especially the cat rider. The first guy needs to go back to a Tundra 360. As for rider forward, My best ridin buddy had an 04 Rev that he rode like he was part of the machine. Last year he rode along side of my Poo700 with a new XP. We were able to sidehill and boondock into some bowls that we had only dreamed of before, I only weigh 190. I have ridden the mountains since I was a freshman in high school. I have found that it pretty hard to turn a old-school sled back up hill once you have pointed her down. I rode a piped 800 RMK for 4 years and thought it was the $hit. After spending a couple rides on My new 07 M8, there was no way I could go back to and Edge. Like so many of you have already stressed, just give it some time on the new ride. Ya know, they went to a 7800 series and moved that smoke stack on the John Deeres out of the view for a reason. I know you old farts dont like change, but its going to happen. My afore mentioned friend's dad is on top of the ***** list. He hates rider forward, but he weighs about 275. In a world where times are like they are, it seems like there are alot more important things to complain about that RIDER FORWARD. Get on, sit down, shut up, and mash that throttle like it is the last day you have, Cheers!!!
I cannot stand the XP. I've ridden them twice. Have about an hour on each. Could NOT get used to them.
They wanted to stay flat...wasn't good for carving. The M8 and the Dragon I rode that day were WAY easier to carve and tip up.
The dang Doo just wanted to slap it's feet down and stay upright.
The Dragons and the Ms are NOT as forward at the first IQ RMK chassis (05-06 models). Those were much more forward. They moved it back a couple inches when they took out the adjustable steering and that was for the better, that's for sure.
I used to think that sliding the supension back was all that. There might be room on a stocker to do an inch or so...but you'll want to drop it also.
I'm not such a fan of skid set-backs anymore. Especially on the new chassis of the last 4 years. You start to make the skis heavier and it rides more rider forward...and can easily be too much.
I don't think that rider forward in SnoX sleds is going to work for mtns. The mtn skid needs to be tucked forward to move the pivot point forward and let the rear skid work better.
Opinions on both accounts. LOL
They wanted to stay flat...wasn't good for carving. The M8 and the Dragon I rode that day were WAY easier to carve and tip up.
The dang Doo just wanted to slap it's feet down and stay upright.
The Dragons and the Ms are NOT as forward at the first IQ RMK chassis (05-06 models). Those were much more forward. They moved it back a couple inches when they took out the adjustable steering and that was for the better, that's for sure.
I used to think that sliding the supension back was all that. There might be room on a stocker to do an inch or so...but you'll want to drop it also.
I'm not such a fan of skid set-backs anymore. Especially on the new chassis of the last 4 years. You start to make the skis heavier and it rides more rider forward...and can easily be too much.
I don't think that rider forward in SnoX sleds is going to work for mtns. The mtn skid needs to be tucked forward to move the pivot point forward and let the rear skid work better.
well im a great rider and doo rider forward ergonomics is like farfignugan.facts not fiction.
Opinions on both accounts. LOL
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freekweet mods
Well-known member
Idaho Hot Shot all differences aside I must say I really like the comment-Get on, sit down, shut up and mash that throttle like it is the last day you have!! Couldn't agree more! And Adrenalin Addict I swear if you take one more word out of my mouth----- well we are going to need to get together for a ride. I have a good friend who lives in Elko and he rides a Ski-Doo.
Couldn't agree more! And Adrenalin Addict I swear if you take one more word out of my mouth----- well we are going to need to get together for a ride. I have a good friend who lives in Elko and he rides a Ski-Doo.good read.
This was probably one of the most interesting reads i've had in awhile here. I agree with both sides of the board. Some pros and cons on both sides. I started out on a 670 short track ski doo, went to a 800 mountain cat 151, then to a fully modded mountain max 159", now on a XP and a phazer for backup. Loved every sled i have had, but i can say for me that personally i felt at home the minute i got on my xp. I am a big guy at 6'4" and about 245 and i can throw that thing anyware. The first ride out i decided to put everything i heard about it to the test. Such as it doesn't carve, doesn't lay over easy, hard to get used to and so-on. So before heading out i unbolted my sway bar and threw it in the trailer, just as i have done with every sled. Hit the mountain and found a spot and started playing. For me this thing is harder to keep upright than anything else i have ridden. I actually have to try to not let the track wash out on me. I can throw it anywhere with minimal effort and i goes, very easy to correct. Now with that being said there will probably be a yard sale this weekend in Laramie!!!
Good read!!
This was probably one of the most interesting reads i've had in awhile here. I agree with both sides of the board. Some pros and cons on both sides. I started out on a 670 short track ski doo, went to a 800 mountain cat 151, then to a fully modded mountain max 159", now on a XP and a phazer for backup. Loved every sled i have had, but i can say for me that personally i felt at home the minute i got on my xp. I am a big guy at 6'4" and about 245 and i can throw that thing anyware. The first ride out i decided to put everything i heard about it to the test. Such as it doesn't carve, doesn't lay over easy, hard to get used to and so-on. So before heading out i unbolted my sway bar and threw it in the trailer, just as i have done with every sled. Hit the mountain and found a spot and started playing. For me this thing is harder to keep upright than anything else i have ridden. I actually have to try to not let the track wash out on me. I can throw it anywhere with minimal effort and i goes, very easy to correct. Now with that being said there will probably be a yard sale this weekend in Laramie!!!
Good read!!
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IDAHO HOT SHOT
Well-known member
Scott, short n sweet, well said. I myself cant stand the doo either, but that is expected coming from a Poo rider and maybe soon to be a Cat man
I forgot how they dropped the adjustable steering post. I believe the '07 & up RMK's also had the foot rests moved further back so the chain case no longer filled up half the right footwell. I wonder if they feel more predictable because the rider is not as far forward as say a Rev or an XP?
I'm no expert on the M type sleds but they appear to me as a Firecat chassis that was modded by the factory to be more rider forward. I'm pretty sure it isn't as rider forward as the Firecat based Sno-Pro race sled that used an over the engine steering post.
Brought to you by the the funny-in-my-head department:
Word on the street is that they're going to one-up the XP's pretty soon. Even some MAJOR changes to the engines and drive train to get the rider even farther forward. Don't believe me? I found a spy pic!
Word on the street is that they're going to one-up the XP's pretty soon. Even some MAJOR changes to the engines and drive train to get the rider even farther forward. Don't believe me? I found a spy pic!
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snowmobiler
Well-known member
wow.first i got to say say ive done all 3 of these boo boos
i dont see a bad part caused by rider forward.but i did see 4 foot trenches and a 6 foot stuck hole where the azzend lost all control.
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Freekweet,
We should still have another month of riding, drop me a PM if your in the area. I love to ride with Ski-Doo's. Since this thread is still somewhat on- track, or off-track, depending on your point of view, I thought I would throw in one more observation from a couples weeks ago. I was out with the boys (20 year olds), I pulled out the camera to shoot a few pics of the boys sailing off a drift into what would best be described as a very soft slushy mountainside. The first kid riding a Gen2 caught some decent air and landed in the slush satisfactorily. The second kid, riding a VE, sailed a fair distance but landed in somewhat of a noser, but managed to save it. The third kid, riding a Rev landed in about the same manner as the kid on the VE, but apparently due to that technologically superior bellypanless design, the ski's dropped through the slush sinking to the bulkhead(Nun), and it stopped like a lawn dart. The kid nearly broke both his kneecaps, has a sprained wrist, and a bruised sternum. Hmm!!
I guess you can eventually learn to ride'em, but at what cost?
We should still have another month of riding, drop me a PM if your in the area. I love to ride with Ski-Doo's. Since this thread is still somewhat on- track, or off-track, depending on your point of view, I thought I would throw in one more observation from a couples weeks ago. I was out with the boys (20 year olds), I pulled out the camera to shoot a few pics of the boys sailing off a drift into what would best be described as a very soft slushy mountainside. The first kid riding a Gen2 caught some decent air and landed in the slush satisfactorily. The second kid, riding a VE, sailed a fair distance but landed in somewhat of a noser, but managed to save it. The third kid, riding a Rev landed in about the same manner as the kid on the VE, but apparently due to that technologically superior bellypanless design, the ski's dropped through the slush sinking to the bulkhead(Nun), and it stopped like a lawn dart. The kid nearly broke both his kneecaps, has a sprained wrist, and a bruised sternum. Hmm!!
I guess you can eventually learn to ride'em, but at what cost?
Its very hard to compare these things as with anything, some people can make any sled look better. If all we saw was chris burandt riding M series cats we would assume it was the best sled on the snow, which it is pretty darn close IMO. I just see it as, i have had days where if you saw me ride you would never buy a rev, then i have a good day and you would think very differently.
the newer chassis definately suit a different type of riding style then the older chassis, and for me, i cant ride the old ones, its way to weird for me, and my buddies on mtn cats and zx chassis doo's cant ride mine at all, and watching where each of us can put our sleds is interesting, they all have there ups and there downs. The zx doo my buddy has seems to skim over the powder better then mine, but i can flip mine around way quick then he can, again, its a give and take thing IMO.
on another note, im very impressed with how this thread is going.
the newer chassis definately suit a different type of riding style then the older chassis, and for me, i cant ride the old ones, its way to weird for me, and my buddies on mtn cats and zx chassis doo's cant ride mine at all, and watching where each of us can put our sleds is interesting, they all have there ups and there downs. The zx doo my buddy has seems to skim over the powder better then mine, but i can flip mine around way quick then he can, again, its a give and take thing IMO.
on another note, im very impressed with how this thread is going.
Freekweet,
We should still have another month of riding, drop me a PM if your in the area. I love to ride with Ski-Doo's. Since this thread is still somewhat on- track, or off-track, depending on your point of view, I thought I would throw in one more observation from a couples weeks ago. I was out with the boys (20 year olds), I pulled out the camera to shoot a few pics of the boys sailing off a drift into what would best be described as a very soft slushy mountainside. The first kid riding a Gen2 caught some decent air and landed in the slush satisfactorily. The second kid, riding a VE, sailed a fair distance but landed in somewhat of a noser, but managed to save it. The third kid, riding a Rev landed in about the same manner as the kid on the VE, but apparently due to that technologically superior bellypanless design, the ski's dropped through the slush sinking to the bulkhead(Nun), and it stopped like a lawn dart. The kid nearly broke both his kneecaps, has a sprained wrist, and a bruised sternum. Hmm!!
I guess you can eventually learn to ride'em, but at what cost?
LAWN DART... Priceless
glad everyone is ok, but man that is funny, I've had some great landings and some not so great landings on my 02 Edge, I think it's more about knowing how to manipulate the chassis through experience than the total design, but I do see and appreciatte your point of view on landings.
I do feel more comfy coming down climbs on my Edge than my Buddies M1000, that thing scares me coming down hill dodging trenches
I've almost lost control of his crossing trenches that would not phase my sled coming down hill...
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snowmobiler
Well-known member
thats some good info for future jumpers.skidplate might be a good idea to cover that hole under there.i never had any problem in the pow.but it sounds like it could happen if you hit ice or something hard under the snow.
Good thread. Last year I purchased a 08 700 RMK after riding an 03 VE for a few years. Looking at the newer IQ RMKs they look more rider forward but when I messured the two chassis they were nearly the same (within a 1/2 inch) measuring the horizontal distance from the handle bar to the ski bolts. I think that what makes them handle so different is the higher center of gravity with a higher seating position. Since I've been riding the IQ RMK I have generally liked it better but I don't feel as confident in areas with more risk as I did on the edge, especially on firm or set up snow.
I found this over on Hardcoresledder and thought it was interesting. The new Rush is no more rider forward than the current IQ chassis.
havent noticed to many guys winning the big hill climbs with old trailing arm sleds . rider forward sleds can be a bit of a hand full after you turnout and head back down through all the graves and ruts . imo bigger riders do better handling the older styles ,more weight and height = better leverage .i used to ride the yammi pogo sticks and trailing arm summits,best thing that happened was the day we demoed a 03.5 rev summit and bought a 04.riding a xp now and not as tired at the end of a long day as i was 15 years ago.:
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snowmobiler
Well-known member
same here i could ride the xp all night but everybody else is done whipped and ready to go.
rider forward is the ticket.
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