Are current mt. sleds too far rider forward?

[AKrider]

This winter I got to ride some XP 800's that had 155"+ long tracks. When riding the sleds in deep, untracked powder or in rotten spring snow, I really noticed the floatation at the back of the sled, but the front would dive as soon as you let off the throttle. The sleds were stock with stock skis that looked to be around 7" wide. To me the sleds seemed unbalanced. They climbed great, were super easy to throw around and carve on and got right up on the snow but let off the gas and the diving was very noticeable.

I got to thinking about it and when the Rev came out they moved the rider forward 12". Now we have sleds with tracks of 163" and the rider is positioned way out on the front of the chassis. I'm wondering if a traditional sled with a super long track would feel more balanced? Seems like a ZX chassis with a 163 would be better balanced than a rider forward sled.

 

[95RXL]

I think the clutches that are set up for the reverse kind of act like a brake when you let off the throttle. They don't coast like the older ones. Not positive on this but it seems that way on my Dragon. It takes a little getting used to at first. Seen people fall off even when they let off.

 

[JROD]

The way your secondary clutch is set up for backshift has a big part to do with this. Most mountain rides like a lot of backshift, thats how I run mine. But you are right, let off and you'd better be paying attention.

We were climbing some pretty steep chutes yesterday though and the traction was incredible. My timbersled rear does a good job at keeping my front end down and even that wasn't helping us out. Wouldn't take much to go over backwards if we weren't careful. So therefore, I don't think I could get 'forward enough'. Guess a lot of it just depends on the day.

 

[snowmobiler]

rider forward is a good thing,unless your just ideling along.with a little throttle your sitting in the center of the teeter totter.ride an xp for a week and youll never want to go back.

 

[mtnpull]

I agree with a lot of the responses, however your throttle control can ease this up a bit to where you control some of those tendencies.

 

[furthur]

On the trail or on the mountain, I'm still crowding the steering post on my M7 with a 2" Oly's riser, (which put's it forward another coupla inches). I think rider forward is the right direction so far.

John

 

[sled_guy]

Rider forward gets worse the bigger (fatter) you are and the longer the track you put on them.

I think it's too much on say the XP. It's almost too much on the Dragon. The Cat seems to be the best.

With an off camber uphill turn on a rider forward sled is less than bottomless fluff you need to be a very good rider to execute it.

sled_guy

 

[Motley Doo]

^^ YUP! I'm pushing 275lbs+ ready to ride, all the rev's, m-sleds, even the little bit I had to ride the xp, they just seemed TOO far forward for me. I think that everyone has a chassis that they seem to like for various reasons, don't get me wrong! I LOVE the nicer suspension they have to offer for the road, but when I jump off into the deep, I love my old ZX chassis! Especially with the mods that have been done to better suit me and my style of riding.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I'm with you 100% AK. The Rev geometry was originally designed for snocross, standing on the ski's gets you through a corner. It turns out some dude decided this would sell as a mountain sled, and guess what, it did. The other manufacturers decided that since Bombardier was selling sleds they needed to follow. Thank god the other manufacturers didn't go to the extreme Ski-Doo did. Human beings are relatively easy to brainwash and following the trend is the direction most will follow. Have you ever jumped on a Rev or XP and simply tried to putter across a chopped up trenched out flat meadow, don't even think about taking your hands off the bars to adjust your goggles, you'll end up in the E.R. Rick Ward is a Polaris hillclimber I watch rather closely. He was extremely competitive on his VE's, not so much on his Dragons, Hmm!! I watched as he tried to climb a rather rutted chute at our Elko Hill Climb, "Dragon Wobble" as I have named it about kicked his azz. I watched a friend of mine attempt to climb through a rather narrow opening between the trees of a narrow chute. I made this pull several times with my old "comfortable VE" and am by no means a great rider. My friend hit it and "Dragon Wobble" kicked his azz. I thought I was going to be spending the rest of the day at Elko General watching the Doc extracting handlebars from his rectum. Most who spend $10,000, $15,000 or maybe $20,000 on a new supertuned sled are naturally going to say it feels great and convince themselves it's the greatest. I for one, am extremely disappointed with the feel of all rider forward sleds. Why should a person have to learn to ride all over again just because you purchased a new ride?

 

[snowmobiler]

well im a great rider and doo rider forward ergonomics is like farfignugan.facts not fiction.

 

[minie me]

im a pretty advanced rider myself and dont really get the topic ??? its like saying current engines have too much power...

 

[JROD]

I'm with you 100% AK. The Rev geometry was originally designed for snocross, standing on the ski's gets you through a corner. It turns out some dude decided this would sell as a mountain sled, and guess what, it did. The other manufacturers decided that since Bombardier was selling sleds they needed to follow. Thank god the other manufacturers didn't go to the extreme Ski-Doo did. Human beings are relatively easy to brainwash and following the trend is the direction most will follow. Have you ever jumped on a Rev or XP and simply tried to putter across a chopped up trenched out flat meadow, don't even think about taking your hands off the bars to adjust your goggles, you'll end up in the E.R. Rick Ward is a Polaris hillclimber I watch rather closely. He was extremely competitive on his VE's, not so much on his Dragons, Hmm!! I watched as he tried to climb a rather rutted chute at our Elko Hill Climb, "Dragon Wobble" as I have named it about kicked his azz. I watched a friend of mine attempt to climb through a rather narrow opening between the trees of a narrow chute. I made this pull several times with my old "comfortable VE" and am by no means a great rider. My friend hit it and "Dragon Wobble" kicked his azz. I thought I was going to be spending the rest of the day at Elko General watching the Doc extracting handlebars from his rectum. Most who spend $10,000, $15,000 or maybe $20,000 on a new supertuned sled are naturally going to say it feels great and convince themselves it's the greatest. I for one, am extremely disappointed with the feel of all rider forward sleds. Why should a person have to learn to ride all over again just because you purchased a new ride?

Fair enough answer and with all due respect answer me this. Sled for sled the rider forward chassis is more nimble and time and time again will outperform an older trailing arm type of chassis. Why is this? It's not just weight and power.

A rider forward chassis will not absorb the bumps like the previous chassis will but a proper setup will help to alleviate some of the issues. Although you might "feel" a lot more on the hill, the pros will far outweigh the cons in terms of sidehilling, boondocking, and climbing.

I've noticed a lot of "Which chassis/sled is better" threads on here and it stirs up a lot of negative opinions towards each other. Here's the problem on the comparisons.... Personally I didn't buy my Rev because I liked the way it rode. Honestly, I hated it to begin with but I saw how well they worked on the hill and told myself I'd adjust with the chassis. Now, a few years later, I don't want to ride anything else.

Is my Rev better than your XP, M-series, Dragon??? Maybe for me. If you ride a different chassis you probably wouldn't like it. Every sled has a different feel for it. It's all about getting comfortable with what you ride and learning how to take it's "flaws" and make them strengths. For instance, a rev/xp tends to dive in the front. Not good on the trails but when you're coming down a hill and want to carve back up or maneuver around something, it takes little effort compared to a trailing arm style sled. Now I refuse to run a sway bar too, making it even.... "worse?" Maybe not.

Nimble (tippy) tendencies might not be great for some riders. It all goes back to personal preference, riding style, experience, and typically (most of all) brand loyality.

Nowadays, all of the chassis' are very comparable. It's all based off of what you are comfortable on and what fits YOU. A Polaris engineer down at Expo told me his Dragon will out-maneuver an M-series, Rev, XP any single day of the week. I've yet to see that!!!! But I can't say my Rev will out maneuver your Dragon either.

 

[diirtbag]

I love my kingcat after I put a longer rider forward post in it,much more manuverable.......but some people might not like the great handling or comfort

 

[theultrarider]

I believe the biggest thing is to spend real time on a sled and get comfortable with it. You and it musst move as one. Once that happens, you can do amazing things on a sled. While in that learning curve, well, thats when your buddies get to take some embarrassing pics of you! For me, from the time I 1st rode an edge til now, I have never been more at home on a sled. I have ridden the newer stuff, and have made a fool of myself. However, I can finally get on someones Dragon now and not make a total a$$ of myself. I can see where I could end up enjoying this sled given enough seat time to really get get used to one. I am sure the same would go for an xp or msled as well. Don't be so quick to through out the old iron though, they are still very capable sleds in the hands of those that have had years of seat time on them. Different, isn't always good or bad, but rather, it is just different and a new way of thinking and learning. Like was said also, a persons size and shape has alot to do with their preferences as well. At 6'1" and 240, I can toss my ol' edge around with ease. Sure the Dragons are easier to tip up, too easy for me since I pull it over on myself all the time. Atleast I used too, but I can just bang into something ugly on the edge as well with the confidence that it will stay right side up and going straight out the other end of it too. I know I will someday move up to the next generation of sleds. Just right now, I am in no hurry to dump $12,000 just to have the latest and greatest, when for the most part, they are all still following me on the ol' edge.

 

[AKrider]

There are some interesting points being brought up that I didn't consider, like back shift and when climbing super steep inclines. Rider forward definitely helps to control the front end when climbing. I guess I was just surprised by the way the XP felt and I couldn't help but wonder if a ZX chassis wouldn't be better balanced?

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

JRod,
I think you have a few good points in there, but I don't feel the new rider forward ergos have anything at all over a well set up trailing arm design. I will be the first to admit I'm a little set in my ways. I've been riding what I consider well balanced sleds for 40 years. My main sled is VE 05 Polaris with infinitely adjustable coil over remote reservoir walkers all the way around. The sled has a UBR900 power plant that delivers excellent useable predictable power. This old sled floats through the whoops down the trail like a dream. I can sit on the seat and carve my way up a slope with minimal input, it almost reads my mind, I couldn't ask for more. Weight transfer is nearly perfect, and rutted downhills are a cakewalk. I was riding with some XP riding friends a couple weeks ago and pulled a rather gnarly climb with an off camber cornice at the top that required a near perfect approach. If the approach was missed the off camber slope sucked you into a wall of trees. I kept egging them on to give it a hit, I think it's a pretty simple pull and I'm no expert rider. I probably hit this hill 10 times that morning. Neither of these guys would even give it a hit, they both mentioned their sleds might get a little squirrely up there and one fella a couple weeks prior said he'd try it on his old Yami but "Dude apparently you've never run a Rev down a steep rutted downhill". I told him I had and don't ever care to do it again. I've used to ride with a "Big Air" rider on an old 700 triple V-Max, he would air that sucker out most anywhere, now he rides a Rev and "Big Air" has become "No Air" because he is not comfortable with the ergonomics. This is the type of thing I'm getting at, I know alot of guys who are trying to convince themselves they're new and improved, but alot of guys are out there are saying, "that gnarly rutted downhill would be a cakewalk on my old sled, but it almost kicked my azz last week, again". This video shows what I'm referring to real well. Pay attention to the how the 2nd sled, a Rev, handles the ruts.http://www.snowest.com/gallery/video/231.wmv
Hmm!!

 

[freekweet mods]

I agree completely with AdrenalinAddict-Why should I have to learn how to ride a snowmobile again! I can remember the day when dad brought home a '76 Polaris TX after learning how to ride on my grandpa's JDX-4 and my dads JDX-6 what a glorious day -the engine was where it should be and the rider was where he should be. This is the type of platform I have been riding for 34 years. In 2004 I purchased a Rev after getting pitched from the unruly mule several times and losing site of it dropping into a canyon twice, wrecking the wretched machine I realized that this rider foward thing was a hoax so I went back to a ZX and I stil had my old hot rod-925 triple in an 's chassis. I hope manufacturers get back to something normal soon!!!

 

[AKrider]

Cool video! The guy on the Cat was lucky he didn't get f'd up. I've experienced the same swapping as the guy on the Rev.

Coming down steep inclines on a rider forward sled always feels more sketchy to me than on a traditional sled. It's a give and take thing, the rider forward goes up hills better but isn't as planted when coming down, IMO.

Seems like to me that you'll hit a point of diminishing returns on a rider forward chassis once the track length gets so long that the rider's position is absurdly forward when compared to the rest of the chassis. Basically the sled just looks out of proportion and the majority of the weight is centered on the front of the chassis rather than in the middle. Like was mentioned earlier, the Rev was designed as a sno-x sled. The primary reason to move the rider forward was to center the rider on the chassis so your feet were on the pivot point just like a dirt bike. Now that current mt sleds are coming with 163" tracks and hardly any belly pans the floatation up front has been reduced. I wonder how good a traditional sled would be if it benefitted from the past 6 years of technology?

 

[JROD]

Apparently my post wasn't taken the way that I had assumed. I'm not saying you're wrong but your "facts" deserve some debate. I'm just trying to say that one sled works well for one person and one doesn't always "fit".

*The point you were trying to make in the video about how the Rev handled the ruts going down the hill doesn't prove much. What appears to be a Mountain Max wrecked as well as the Rev and then the M-series sled. So where is the sled that handled the ruts? Secondly, I could say that maybe given a more "nimble" rider forward sled, that feeble attempt of a save at the top of the 1st climb might have been easier to save. It appeared to have wheelied hard and lost control. Weight forward helps keep the front down and in these situations would have, no doubt, helped. It also looks like he leaned back too far. Not the best riding position for that climb. A nimbler, tippy sled would have taken less effort to throw back towards the top after that wheelie. Then again, nothing is known about the riders or experience levels. Just basing my opinion off of what I see. Just yesterday I was able to control a Rev down some really fast chutes and threw some really rough terrain at the bottom. You can see the runout in the pics.

As far as comparing the trailing arm chassis' goes. The sled I had before my Rev was a pretty nice ported/polished 809 triple S-chassis mod. It ran very well but I felt like I had been worked over by the mob after a day of riding and it was a great point-and-shoot sled but not nearly as easy to maneuver in the trees. The weight of the machine definitely helped absorb some front end hits vs. rider forward chassis though. Another thing I had to get used to.

Why should you have to relearn how to ride a sled again??? Technology. freekweet mods, you say that you've been riding the same platform for 34 years? I'm surprised those old JDXs have held up that long I understand what you're trying to say though. Sleds have changed a lot since then but only in small increments. You had to relearn how to ride a sled once paddles and long tracks were introduced. What about case/cylinder reed engines, Hi-perf bigger cc liquid engines, Independent Front Suspension. Longer travel suspensions.

However I do agree with you about manufacturers' engines, it would be nice if they were built as solid as they used to be. BUT who are any of us to say where the right place is for the rider and the engine to be. Sleds used to have engines in the rear, some had articulated steering, bench seats. Technology has it's effect of changing things. Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks Open-mindedness is something that can't be forced.

Keep it up! Some good points being made

 

[freekweet mods]

Thats a good lookin sled JROD -and I have to admit my old mod sled rides like a plank! The point I was trying to make was the JDX had the engine between your knees and technology moved the engine forward as in the TX. I agree that sleds have had continual improvement over the years but the rider forward design is overrated IMO. Maybe I should mod out an old JDX .That would get some wierd looks as I blasted over a cornice.