An Answer to $4 a Gallon Gasoline

[sledmanhof]

i like the idea that we are looking at new sources for energy but i dont think ethanol made from corn is the answer. at the rate that corn prices are skyrocketing and the cost to make it, it wont be much cheaper for very long. We live next to an ethanol plant that locked in a bunch of corn to use when the price was 3.50 a bushel, well today you can lock in corn for around 7.00 a bushell. To me that shows me that the cost to make ethanol out of corn is going to go way up.

i hope that something can be resolved about this and we can find cheaper ways but odds are at least for now that it wont

 

[Mafesto]

We live next to an ethanol plant that locked in a bunch of corn to use when the price was 3.50 a bushel, well today you can lock in corn for around 7.00 a bushell. To me that shows me that the cost to make ethanol out of corn is going to go way up.

Like any industry, ethanol plants must continually hone processes to improve efficiency.
Engineers must continually search for alternative methods of production.
Byproducts need to be marketed with scrutiny.

If you look back 10 years, it is evident that this industry has been agile and able to quickly adjust to adverse situations & conditions.

$7 corn will, in the end, make production that much more efficient.

 

[bullfrog123]

Other problem with $7.00 corn is it is hurting the dairy and cattle operations, as they can't afford to buy high price feed, and when they can the cost is then passed on to the consumer.

In other words one industry affects another and so on. It's a no win for someone out there, mainly the consumer in the end. My .01c, (I'm too cheap for .02 cents, it's a fuel thing)

 

[Ollie]

Electric cars are NOT the answer.
Take California.
They don't make enough eletricity to power their houses and buisnesses let alone the additional load of charging cars. Take that plust he fact they are trying to shut down all coal power plants (green movement). Than add to that, what do you do with the millions of used and spent batteries from all those electric cars??

As for hydrogen, it is in development right now (where I work). With a minor conversion kit any current gas burner would be able to run on it.

Plus, how much of the price of corn is the fuel it takes to plant, maintain, harvest and get it to market?

 

[HeadLever]

There is no magic solution to this crunch we now find ourselves. Our dependancy upon petro is so huge, it would take decades to develop one source to the point that it could replace oil (assuming demand stays the same). However, there are some very promising technologies out there. Wade mentioned cellulosic ethanol. This can turn almost any wood/plant based product into ethanol. Another one is Algae based biodiesel.

For comparison, using corn as a feedstock, you can get about 350 gallons per acre. Algae yields about 5 to 10 thousand gallons of diesel per acre.

Both cellulosic ethanol and algae have several years of R&D before they are ready and both do have drawbacks and problems, but they are our best bet ouside opening up this country for oil development (which the Democrats will make sure does not happen).

 

[ruffryder]

Electric cars are NOT the answer.
Take California.
They don't make enough eletricity to power their houses and buisnesses let alone the additional load of charging cars.

If the charging takes place during the night hours there won't be much of a problem as the peak load period is during the 5-7pm time frame. FYI they are a Summer Peaking load area, due to air conditioning usage. If the cars charge up during the night time hours 10pm to 5am, the effect on the grid won't be as bad. Electric cars will be great for daily commuters that have a round trip of around 60-70 miles or less. Everyone won't have them, but there is a niche that can be filled. The key to the energy dilemma is diversification. A little here, a little there, and problems can be solved. Electric cars can help to solve all sorts of issues with the electrical grid, with power electronics and smart monitoring of the grid, coupled with demand side management, lots of things can be done to reduce the cost of electricity.

As far as the battery problem, that has been the biggest hurdle. Batteries have not advanced very much for a while. With a focus on recycling of the batteries, there is a large opportunity for local job markets to expand. Though I think the energy storage issue solution will be a longer term storage system coupled with a shorter term storage system like ultra capacitors. Batteries can store a lot of energy, but the rate at which they can be charged and discharged is pretty small in order to keep the lifespan something reasonable. Ultra capacitors can be discharge very rapidly and charged very rapidly also. This helps to speed up very quickly when you hit the go pedal.

I believe ulta-capacitors are being used by Oshkosh for some of there military vehicles

HEMTT A3

Electric cars will not be for everyone, and should be marketed towards everyone... but there is a market for them, I would think a quite large one too.

I personally want a diesel hybrid that uses ultra capacitors. There is tons of power in the braking system that could be absorbed by the ultra capacitors. Brakes are the most powerful part of a car, as you can stop much faster than you can accelerate. Current hybrids only use a fraction of the power available to store in the batteries because there power throughput limits are small. If all the power from braking is used to accelerate the vehicle again, I would think a large savings in city driving mpg would be seen.

Darn I am such a geek.

 

[bullfrog123]

Dang, you are a "Geek" Ruff, but you make valid points on electric cars filling a certain segment of the US, as in daily commuters too and from the office or the simple grocery getter in the larger cities. The oil burners would fill another segment of the country as in farms, ranches, rural communities, supply transportation, (ie the trucking, train, ind.) etc. And the hybrids will fill the other 3rd of the segment.

Very good points all across the board. Diversification is where we need to start, and build from there.

The point is, is we need to start somewhere and learn what works and what don't, (at a faster pace than what is being done now), or this country is going to spiral downhill at an alarming rate until we are just another 3rd world country out there. Is this what we want to leave for future generations? Not me.

 

[SNOW JW]

As for hydrogen, it is in development right now (where I work). With a minor conversion kit any current gas burner would be able to run on it.

Can you shed some more light on this?? I know most of the Hydrogen systems use platinum plates and such to covert it and are very very spendy and very high tech stuff and the cars are custom built around the systems.

 

[ruffryder]

Can you shed some more light on this?? I know most of the Hydrogen systems use platinum plates and such to covert it and are very very spendy and very high tech stuff and the cars are custom built around the systems.

I think you are thinking of a hydrogen fuel cell. I believe Ollie was talking about burning? Hydrogen gas through the motor.

Is the max efficiency of the hydrogen gas for a combustion motor still around 30%?

 

[Gone Sleddin]

why wouldn't the price of ethanol go up with gas? ethanol follows the price of oil.
corn may be nearing $7 a bushel but denatured ethanol was trading at $2.62/gal at the end of the day on the chicago board of trade. also, the price of the biproducts sold for feed use follows the price of the corn up.
the price of the electric cars and hydrogen cells and ultra capacitors is all great ideas, but will they be affordable to the average american?
i would like to see smaller diesel motors in cars and small SUV's, but at the current price there would have to be a fairly significant mileage advantage for it to work out

 

[Ollie]

Can you shed some more light on this?? I know most of the Hydrogen systems use platinum plates and such to covert it and are very very spendy and very high tech stuff and the cars are custom built around the systems.

They are working on a way to convert in the fuel tank.
Using a hydrogen seperator which utilizes an electrolitic process.
WAY BEYOND my understanding.
Bottom line.
it is still years out for a cost effective method to make it work. They can do it now, but the materials used are hidiously expensive. Worked out to be something like 800 dollars a gallon.

Ruff...
I watched a show on electric hybrid diesel cars. They use the breaking effect to recharge the batteries plus as the wheels are spun they generate a small current that also works towards recharging the batteries.

 

[xrated]

Ruff, you sure you haven't read that book yet? I can't wait for you to read it as I think you can explain parts for met.

Maf, more hyrdo-electricty isn't gonna work. We put dams in all the good spots and all the chitty spots that could sound good. To many problems with dams. They fail, they fill up with silt, etc. Coal and nuclear are the answers for electricity.