Alpha Silber turbo

[JJ_0909]

BLUBBERING exactly. I added 1 gram to the heel and it helped a bit, however it still has way too much fuel on the low end. Silber told me i was running too much AV gas, i was at 100% went to 50% still "blubbering" Ill go to 25% but i dont want to detonate (obviously)

What ratios of av to pump are you fellas experiencing the blubbering at? I felt as though my sled blubbered less on the original high idle tune. Was that just me? I asked Justin Silbernagel if he could lower the amount of fuel on my tune on the low end he said no. I guess he hates money.

I want to kill trees but the blubbering makes it quite un motivating to do so. I go stuck going downhill today because of blubbering.....FML.

Can you post some video? One thing you have to remember, every turbo sled is going to feel un-stock like off the bottom. You are pushing far more aggressive clutching and you have the restriction of the turbocharger. It shouldn't be unridable, but a good rider will quickly learn to use a lot more brake and throttle in combination to keep the sled's motor and turbo spooled.

Anyone looking for a sled that feels 100% stock down low, in that it has the exact same hit, will be let down until we all figure out a better solution for sleds than mechanically driven CVT clutching.

Finally, the way the sleds are tuned, you can't just subtract fuel and call it good. You need to be able to pick exactly where to pull fuel and from what table. Justin would need to try this extensively, both on the dyno and in the field to be able to be sure it'll work. If you pull fuel from the wrong place, the sled will literally fall on its face.

I'd wager Justin & James figure out the issue, as it does sound like you guys have honed in on something. However, I just wanted to point out there is noway you'll ever get a high horsepower turbo sled to feel the exact same down low as your stocker.

Just something to be aware of!

 

[turboless terry]

You will not have the same bottom end as stock or from engagement until the turbo spools. I have a silber on a doo 850 that my wife rides. It has about as good of bottom end as you are going to get but it does lose about half of that quick brap that the 850 has stock. A split second later it has way more. There is a huge difference between that and a bog. Hope they figure it out.

 

[kanedog]

Can you post some video? One thing you have to remember, every turbo sled is going to feel un-stock like off the bottom. You are pushing far more aggressive clutching and you have the restriction of the turbocharger. It shouldn't be unridable, but a good rider will quickly learn to use a lot more brake and throttle in combination to keep the sled's motor and turbo spooled.

Anyone looking for a sled that feels 100% stock down low, in that it has the exact same hit, will be let down until we all figure out a better solution for sleds than mechanically driven CVT clutching.

Finally, the way the sleds are tuned, you can't just subtract fuel and call it good. You need to be able to pick exactly where to pull fuel and from what table. Justin would need to try this extensively, both on the dyno and in the field to be able to be sure it'll work. If you pull fuel from the wrong place, the sled will literally fall on its face.

I'd wager Justin & James figure out the issue, as it does sound like you guys have honed in on something. However, I just wanted to point out there is noway you'll ever get a high horsepower turbo sled to feel the exact same down low as your stocker.

Just something to be aware of!

Blaming the cvt for poor turbo engine performance is laughable.
"A good rider will quickly learn......." That statement is an insult. If you have to change the way you ride to compensate for poor turbo performance, it's a turbo issue, not a rider issue.
How bout "a good turbo company that has sold 1000's of turbos will be able to quickly tune and clutch their kits to perfection."
You need to learn how to clutch and tune properly and stop spreading incorrect information.
It's obvious by your post that you have minimal clutching experience and it's prolly best if you stop trying to blame silbers failures on outside factors. There are lots of turbos that are great down low. Force turbos work well. Burandt's work just fine. Maybe have a listen to Redline's sleds in low end driveability. No problems there.
Your theories and advice are a joke.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Fack]

Anyone looking for a sled that feels 100% stock down low, in that it has the exact same hit, will be let down until we all figure out a better solution for sleds than mechanically driven CVT clutching.

Just something to be aware of!

Speedwerx supercharger. Best setup I’ve ridden by far!

-Fack

 

[jbusch]

Speedwerx supercharger. Best setup I’ve ridden by far!

-Fack

If only I had 7gs laying around burning a hole in my pocket

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[Kunt]

Can you post some video? One thing you have to remember, every turbo sled is going to feel un-stock like off the bottom. You are pushing far more aggressive clutching and you have the restriction of the turbocharger. It shouldn't be unridable, but a good rider will quickly learn to use a lot more brake and throttle in combination to keep the sled's motor and turbo spooled.

Anyone looking for a sled that feels 100% stock down low, in that it has the exact same hit, will be let down until we all figure out a better solution for sleds than mechanically driven CVT clutching.

Finally, the way the sleds are tuned, you can't just subtract fuel and call it good. You need to be able to pick exactly where to pull fuel and from what table. Justin would need to try this extensively, both on the dyno and in the field to be able to be sure it'll work. If you pull fuel from the wrong place, the sled will literally fall on its face.

I'd wager Justin & James figure out the issue, as it does sound like you guys have honed in on something. However, I just wanted to point out there is noway you'll ever get a high horsepower turbo sled to feel the exact same down low as your stocker.

Just something to be aware of!

Ok so blame it on the clutching, fine. However you guys sent me this clutching so, its still your fault. I know it wont be exactly as snappy as stock, but it should be close. telling a client the problem dosent exist and acting like you have never heard of this when there is a thread on SNOWEST about the issue.... and people on here saying they spoke to you guys about it. If i am going to be field testing your turbo and providing R&D thats fine but pay me than because you are profiting off my time. I work my ass off to pay for this thing and have a limited amount of time to ride and a limited amount of time on this planet. It is advertised as Pull and go but its pull wait go.

Saying Justin would need to try extensively to get the tune right, like its a bridge too far is hilarious. It is literally his bread and butter with this product. Dont release the product if it is not ready!If justin silbernagel needs to try it extensively in the field and on a dyno than thats exactly what he should be doing not answering customer support calls . HIRE MORE STAFF. We are all choked and rightfully so. Silber needs to say sorry not play defense and act like there is no issue. And actively work on one.

Silber will be closed in the next few years, seems they got lucky with some kits so far, but the customer and dealer support is awful. EVERYONE i talk to says the same thing. They are brutal to get a hold of and get answers from. They could turn it around though and i hope they do as they are sitting on a gold mine.

But as you say i guess i am just not a good rider. My bad.

 

[Kunt]

Blaming the cvt for poor turbo engine performance is laughable.
"A good rider will quickly learn......." That statement is an insult. If you have to change the way you ride to compensate for poor turbo performance, it's a turbo issue, not a rider issue.
How bout "a good turbo company that has sold 1000's of turbos will be able to quickly tune and clutch their kits to perfection."
You need to learn how to clutch and tune properly and stop spreading incorrect information.
It's obvious by your post that you have minimal clutching experience and it's prolly best if you stop trying to blame silbers failures on outside factors. There are lots of turbos that are great down low. Force turbos work well. Burandt's work just fine. Maybe have a listen to Redline's sleds in low end driveability. No problems there.
Your theories and advice are a joke.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

respect

 

[snopro11]

Silber turbo

Ran my 154 alpha turbo at Togwotee today, man I am impressed! Wheelies for days, unreal power, that little bog wasn’t such a nuisance, i han no problem riding it thru the trees in pretty decent pow. They do like fuel though, not so much oil which is a bit scary. 9000’+ 6.5 psi boost on koso gauge, I didn’t adjust it actuator rod at all. 45% av fuel. I don’t think I’ll change that is it runs real good there. Never hit det, held wide open for 4-5 sec max any more it would of flipped backwards. Great kit. Nice job silber. How long will the motor last thats the big question? I have a facebook vid under Jim Beck Jr. Thanks for all the info sharing on here!!

 

[Kunt]

Ran my 154 alpha turbo at Togwotee today, man I am impressed! Wheelies for days, unreal power, that little bog wasn’t such a nuisance, i han no problem riding it thru the trees in pretty decent pow. They do like fuel though, not so much oil which is a bit scary. 9000’+ 6.5 psi boost on koso gauge, I didn’t adjust it actuator rod at all. 45% av fuel. I don’t think I’ll change that is it runs real good there. Never hit det, held wide open for 4-5 sec max any more it would of flipped backwards. Great kit. Nice job silber. How long will the motor last thats the big question? I have a facebook vid under Jim Beck Jr. Thanks for all the info sharing on here!!

Tighten your limiter strap I can hold mine pinned for 2 min up a glacier and skid are barely off the snow.

 

[snopro11]

Tighten your limiter strap I can hold mine pinned for 2 min up a glacier and skid are barely off the snow.

Yeah I’ll probably throw the rear shock lockout for hillclimbing, just trying to show that the engine performance witn turbo is real good. My first turbo so I was just having fun with some wheelies! I was also trying to make it wheelie in the vid, if ya lean forward it’s alot less dramatic. But so damn fun!

 

[Kunt]

Yeah I’ll probably throw the rear shock lockout for hillclimbing, just trying to show that the engine performance witn turbo is real good. My first turbo so I was just having fun with some wheelies! I was also trying to make it wheelie in the vid, if ya lean forward it’s alot less dramatic. But so damn fun!

Definitely fun but not finished, too much low end fueling. Jump on a sticker u will see what I mean.

 

[snopro11]

Definitely fun but not finished, too much low end fueling. Jump on a sticker u will see what I mean.

Had a stock 154 alpha with me, It really wasn’t much different. I’m sure they will have a better map that will take that little burble out but man mine was pretty damn good. It really doesn’t even bother me in the trees, it really goes from bottom to boosted well.

 

[Kunt]

Had a stock 154 alpha with me, It really wasn’t much different. I’m sure they will have a better map that will take that little burble out but man mine was pretty damn good. It really doesn’t even bother me in the trees, it really goes from bottom to boosted well.

What does your idle sit after long WOT pulls? What is your max RPM what is your engagement RPM? What did you do to your clutching? What PSI are your running ? Fuel ? Thanks Ill just replicate yours.

 

[JJ_0909]

Blaming the cvt for poor turbo engine performance is laughable.
"A good rider will quickly learn......." That statement is an insult. If you have to change the way you ride to compensate for poor turbo performance, it's a turbo issue, not a rider issue.
How bout "a good turbo company that has sold 1000's of turbos will be able to quickly tune and clutch their kits to perfection."
You need to learn how to clutch and tune properly and stop spreading incorrect information.
It's obvious by your post that you have minimal clutching experience and it's prolly best if you stop trying to blame silbers failures on outside factors. There are lots of turbos that are great down low. Force turbos work well. Burandt's work just fine. Maybe have a listen to Redline's sleds in low end driveability. No problems there.
Your theories and advice are a joke.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

Did I ever say it won't run fine? As others have suggested, you will *never* have the same performance off the bottom with a higher horsepower sled than you do a lesser horsepower sled. Please show me how the logic is wrong, but you are spinning more aggressive clutching. To add, with respect to a turbo sled, you are also pushing exhaust through a restriction point until the turbo really spools. Hence, before you start to put load on the motor via clutch engagement you have less output.

So, to recap, you've got less output from the motor along with heavier clutching. Anyone that thinks you are going to have the exact same feeling as stock is lying to themselves. Some people don't notice this, some do. I

My suggestion pertaining to how to ride a turbo sled is something I still stand by. I constantly take out new riders on turbo'd machines. Anyone who has ridden one extensively ***uses their brake!***. You should do this stock too, but its more pronounced with a turbo...otherwise you'll be riding out of control and working a lot harder than you need to in order to control the sled. See also: How every RMSHA racer rides...

I am positive there will be improvements over the coming days to the Ascender turbo platform. Its challenging because we've heard everything from "they rip" to "I can't ride it". The Cat's I've been around have been ridiculously good, including Silber's test sleds. There is something lurking in setup that matters, I'd guess it has something to do with TPS, but we'll get it figured out.

In any case, my post was not intended to say "suck it up and live with it", but was to shine some light on the idea that a higher horsepower sled will "be the same" as a lower horsepower sled off the bottom. It won't. It has nothing to do with the brand, I've ridden them all. And the reason is, CVT clutching is not the best solution when it comes to transferring power. See Also: Race Cars.

I'd love to see us figure out some stepper-motor electronically controlled CVT system. That'd be a game changer...but I won't hold my breath.

Alternatively, maybe you can tell me your unicorn clutching setup that magically finds the same torque off idle, spins lighter clutching (so it spools faster) and turns a progressive HP machine into something linear yet somehow doesn't cause belt slip or over-rev... I'm all ears.

 

[JJ_0909]

Ok so blame it on the clutching, fine. However you guys sent me this clutching so, its still your fault. I know it wont be exactly as snappy as stock, but it should be close. telling a client the problem dosent exist and acting like you have never heard of this when there is a thread on SNOWEST about the issue.... and people on here saying they spoke to you guys about it. If i am going to be field testing your turbo and providing R&D thats fine but pay me than because you are profiting off my time. I work my ass off to pay for this thing and have a limited amount of time to ride and a limited amount of time on this planet. It is advertised as Pull and go but its pull wait go.

Saying Justin would need to try extensively to get the tune right, like its a bridge too far is hilarious. It is literally his bread and butter with this product. Dont release the product if it is not ready!If justin silbernagel needs to try it extensively in the field and on a dyno than thats exactly what he should be doing not answering customer support calls . HIRE MORE STAFF. We are all choked and rightfully so. Silber needs to say sorry not play defense and act like there is no issue. And actively work on one.

Silber will be closed in the next few years, seems they got lucky with some kits so far, but the customer and dealer support is awful. EVERYONE i talk to says the same thing. They are brutal to get a hold of and get answers from. They could turn it around though and i hope they do as they are sitting on a gold mine.

But as you say i guess i am just not a good rider. My bad.

Sorry you misread what I wrote, or maybe I wrote it poorly. First, I never said "you are a bad rider". I was offering a tip as to how to have more fun with your sled. I say this regardless of the tune, the brand, etc. I learned the more I am aggressive with the throttle and brake, the better I ride and the better the sled responds. Just an observation - take it or leave it.

Second, go read what I wrote pertaining to turbo clutching. I've ridden every major brand of turbocharger, and I stand by this regardless of whos kit it is. Turbless Terry wrote the same thing... My logic is sound, and well accepted.

Third, I never said there is no problem, again, I'm trying to offer a few pieces of advice and make sure expectations are in line with reality (again, a turbo will never feel the same off idle to engagement). I'm not suggesting there isn't fertile ground to build upon! But just like in the automobile world, if you want a naturally aspirated torque curve, well, stick with a naturally aspirated motor! That said, I'm pretty sure we'll get you happy! These things are pretty dang linear once they start building boost.

Fourth, I never blamed clutching for anything. Not sure where you read that? I suggested a turbo sled will feel "unstock off the bottom".

Fifth, you asked Justin for a custom change to your map. I suggested this isn't possible because Justin would need to test this exact change in a multitude of different environments for it to work. I wasn't saying "he won't make changes". He is! He's always tuning! To add, the fact there are Ascenders working awesome says the problem is less in the map and more in setup. My point really was to suggest, Justin isn't working with some big fuel box where he can just take X fuel away from the bottom and reflash your sled, expecting it to work. It won't. He has to test and restest a change for it to be an improvement. Otherwise you can go backwards really fast with the map.

I'd love it if Justin were to hire me full time! Unfortunately, I work as a consultant, and my real job is to ensure his website works. I really have zero incentive to post here except I really want people to have a good time out there. I've taken calls from a number of people in this thread, and have done what I can remotely to help!

 

[snopro11]

What does your idle sit after long WOT pulls? What is your max RPM what is your engagement RPM? What did you do to your clutching? What PSI are your running ? Fuel ? Thanks Ill just replicate yours.

9000’+ altitude, idles at 1800, max rpm 8400-8650, silber 76g weights & secondary spring, 6.5psi boost, I’d have to check engagement today but i believe it was around 4000. Hope yours can get dialed in! I also have the newest map.

 

[Fack]

A CVT is a good option for turbo power in a snowmobile application. There’s enough variables there to move the power around where you want it and change how the motor reacts before the turbocharger begins building boost to allow for a nice linear feel that does make the sled feel stock like with a smooth transition into big top end power without the big hit from nothing to boost . It’s really a combination of weight and helix profiles and spring rates. Just adding weight to manage top end power is the less than an ideal solution for turbo clutching.

Also, just bolting a turbo to a specific engine and doing what works on other engines never works out well. The best application for this seemed to have been the axys 800 then the ski doo 850. Generally, engine dynamics need to be altered in the form of port timing, head design, plenum design and pipe design. Bolting a different plenum and turbo on affect all of these and changes how the air, heat and sound moves through an engine. Changes to fuel and timing can only get you so far and I suspect this is a problem that others are experiencing.

The top engine/turbo builders understand this and their “kits” aren’t cheap, but again, some applications run better on boost with minimal changes.

-Fack

 

[JJ_0909]

There’s enough variables there to move the power around where you want it and change how the motor reacts before the turbocharger begins building boost to allow for a nice linear feel that does make the sled feel stock like with a smooth transition into big top end power without the big hit from nothing to boost . It’s really a combination of weight and helix profiles and spring rates. Just adding weight to manage top end power is the less than an ideal solution for turbo clutching.


-Fack

Agreed here. Of course you can tune the crap out of the CVT system. People keep missing what I'm saying, I am suggesting you aren't going to get the same snap out of a turbo'd application as you would an NA application. This is very widely accepted.

Yes, going to a helix that loads the motor harder might help, going to a softer finish rate to drop weight also might help. But there are certain things you can't completely "tune around" with respect to power delivery.

CVT has greater mechanical loss, is not light, and has a lot of wear parts. I firmly believe this is an area where a manufacturer could produce something that improves the efficiency of a sled significantly. Just my opinion - and completely off topic.

 

[john6719]

How much of this bog is the sled choking off itself. I have a 100% stock Alpha and have had some (not all) of the same issues that are being stated in here. The 165 I rented was terrible. About flew over the bars a couple times because it just bogged out. My sled has only been hard bog off the bottom where it just doesn’t want to go.

 

[killerrf]

How much of this bog is the sled choking off itself. I have a 100% stock Alpha and have had some (not all) of the same issues that are being stated in here. The 165 I rented was terrible. About flew over the bars a couple times because it just bogged out. My sled has only been hard bog off the bottom where it just doesn’t want to go.

Bad bog on stock sled. That’s unusual.