<< ALERT >>: Federal judge says Forest Service broke law not regulating Snowmobiles!!

[Dobber1]

http://www.winterwildlands.org/

Welcome to Winter Wildlands Alliance, the first and only national organization of its kind for human-powered snow sport enthusiasts and winter wildland conservationists. Our aim is to ensure a safe, quiet, tranquil experience for every winter wildlands adventurer, now and always.

About WWA
Formed in February, 2000, the WWA is the first and only national organization working on behalf of snowshoers, skiers, snowboarders, winter hikers, and other outdoor adventurers, addressing national issues that impact our winter wildlands.

We believe winter wildland adventurers and future generations should have sizable areas of public land on which to experience the natural sights, sounds, and winter beauty of public lands free of motorized vehicles, and that our backcountry wildlife habitat should be protected from the negative impacts of motorized intrusion such as snowmobiles. We also believe it is the mandate of federal land-management agencies to responsibly manage motorized access to these cherished assets to ensure their protection for future generations.

As activists, WWA builds relationships with grassroots snowsports and conservation groups, providing networking opportunities and useful resources. The Alliance publicizes national issues and maintains a national presence by communicating regularly with Forest Service, Park Service, and Congressional representatives, commenting on draft plans and encouraging agencies to adopt nonmotorized-friendly policies. We provide useful information to activists through an online information clearinghouse and action alert network. And our work and initiatives continue to grow.

Kumbaya!

Tired of playing fair...OK, they can have the millions of acres of wilderness and we'll keep the rest. If they need access, we'll give it to them, but hey need to stay single file.

 

[clyde62960]

Users not creators

All of these issues and problems take organization and money to fight and defend --get involved and join organizations like BRC --don't just join contribute --it takes money to fight these nut cases

It has always been a concern to me that the manufactures do not get more involved with money and legal assistance as they have allot to loose

I think that they are afraid to get too involved because of "big brother" coming down on them with agencies like the EPA

They had better wake up or there my not be a market for their products --what then--start selling ski's without motors

 

[kidwoo]

Year after year WE LOOSE GROUND.

When was the last time that we GAINED ACCESS to a new area rather than LOST ACCESS.??

These decisions are NEVER in our best interest.

THEY DON'T LIKE TO SHARE.

Quit running around with your hair on fire and do something productive like tell people to Get in touch with their local district and find out how this is going to effect whatever management unit they ride in.

This is why sledders keep losing ground. Because it never goes past the bltch and moan phase to the point where people actually take the time to learn what's going on.

Most of the heavily used sledding areas on Forest Service land ALREADY HAVE MANAGEMENT PLANS FOR SNOWMOBILES. You know those groomers? You know those parking lots? You know the 'don't ride here' signs? They wouldn't be there if a management plan for sleds wasn't already in place. Find out SPECIFICALLY how this is going to change existing plans and just as importantly, find out what it means for all those random dirt road pullouts that access FS land.

Come on Christopher, this entire site is at your disposal. Help make people aware of what's going on, not just put up a bunch of posts screaming bloody murder about what victims we are. You know who's not a victim? The people that got a lawsuit filed against the FS with regards to their OHV treatment of sleds. They didn't get that accomplished by just sitting around blaming people on the internet.

And yes, I just got an email back from the management unit where I live. In Tahoe, like most places, there already is a plan in place. The only question is what else needs to be clarified or altered in it once the department of agriculture hands down a decision in the next few weeks. But start the conversation. That's what the snowlands network did.

 

[03RMK800]

One thing has been bothering me-- why are magistrate judges making these major land use decisions? The long-running court go-around on road designation plans (or not) was set up by different decisions by a magistrate judge in California, and a Wyoming judge.


In this case, I looked at the court record, and saw that all parties had consented to a decision by a magistrate judge, instead of keeping the case in front of an Article III judge. This decision to consent was made by people smarter than me, and I won't fault them for it. There are reasons, such as time and money, trust in the magistrates, ability to avoid a certain judge, etc.

US Constitution Article III creates the judiciary, and the district court judges. The office of magistrate judge is a congressional enactment, to help the judicial system work. Parties can choose between Article III judges and MJs for trial. Often, you end up with an MJ handling procedural and discovery issues, and the Article III judge handling the trial and making major decisions. In some judicial districts, the judges have authorized (ordered) MJs to recommend dispositive decisions, which the Article III judge might accept, reject or modify.

Attorneys and parties are always told that the matters in front of magistrates get decided quicker, etc etc. so you should consent. The magistrate judges I appear in front of are great to work with, know the law and the panel consists of personable people.

Even so, some situations such as far and broad-reaching decisions that the case deserves the gravitas (weight, seriousness, dignity) an Article III judge brings to the matter. I think that the groups defending our interests should give some thought to going the judge route even if we have to help with more money and the process is slower.

 

[snengineer]

I sent this email to Mark 3 years ago. He never responded to me. I thought it was well said. Anyway here is this guys email

mmenlove@winterwildlands.org

Send him some of your thoughtful thoughts.

As much as he says differently his intentions are one sided and actions are calculated. This guy is not a friend to snowmobilers of any kind and does not have the best interest of the public at heart!




To Mark and leaders of WWA,



I commend your effort to protect our beautiful public land and resources particularly in the winter months. You and your team have gone to great efforts to eliminate any danger that may come to the future of our national treasure….our National Forests. I question your motives, in particular, your subjective views in minimizing winter recreation in the Rocky Mountains.

You stated that you lived in an area where you used a snowmobile to get into and out of your house for many years, you took that experience as a holistic view of what snowmobiles have to offer and what they are all about. I hardly believe taking a 2-up in and out of a “remote” cabin at the foot of Alta ski resort any experience in sledding and what sledding is about for the millions that take part in the sport all over the U.S. in particular, the Rocky Mountain region. If that is the case then my view on downhill skiing holds valid. Sure I’ve been, I’ve been many times but I hardly hold that as understanding the sport or an understanding of the users. Snowmobiles are not the same as OHV’s, that is why they are not classified under the same ruling. Your understanding of snowmobiles and OHV’s does not qualify you to make such an argument. That may be why the public officials, so far, are not giving heed to your requests on the 2005 ruling. I know you and the people WWA represents do not “hate” snowmobiles, I see many skiers use sleds to access the backcountry, which is great. That is why changing the 2005 ruling does not affect you nor your group one bit, you will still be able to use snowmobiles on conveniently designated routes to your ability and comfort level in accessing the areas you want to ski. Eliminating snowmobiles from any area that falls within the; closest to the metro areas, best terrain for skiing, most beautiful winter scenery, most snow, most fresh snow….etc….I think you get the point, will allow your idealistic view of “acceptable” recreation to grow and spread and overcome the “uneducated” public and preserve “green” recreation for generations to come. This view in general reeks pretty bad with greed, jealousy, envy and selfishness…..traits that ironically are preached to be non-existent in the political movement I am sure most members of WWA are affiliated with.

What about existing wilderness areas?

What about existing non-motorized winter use areas?

To say there is no current regulation is a lie, all of your arguments are half-truths and mostly lies. The sledding community will not stand for this one-sided push to submission you and your group have outlined, whether you’re publicly willing to admit it or not. You think this will be a win-win for WWA in the end, we will see, this is a battle because you and your group are making it into a battle. You and your group make yourself out to be victims, this is a very transparent agenda to the sledding community and to most people who truly can and will put themselves on both sides of the fence on this issue. We have been pushed around for several years now by false accusations, partial information and the general attitude of self-righteousness coming from WWA and other groups with similar agenda’s. The gig is up, your intentions are known and by all means WWA will not succeed.



Sincerely,

Deven Serr

 

[christopher]

http://www.winterwildlands.org/

Welcome to Winter Wildlands Alliance, the first and only national organization of its kind for human-powered snow sport enthusiasts and winter wildland conservationists. Our aim is to ensure a safe, quiet, tranquil experience for every winter wildlands adventurer, now and always.

About WWA
Formed in February, 2000, the WWA is the first and only national organization working on behalf of snowshoers, skiers, snowboarders, winter hikers, and other outdoor adventurers, addressing national issues that impact our winter wildlands.

We believe winter wildland adventurers and future generations should have sizable areas of public land on which to experience the natural sights, sounds, and winter beauty of public lands free of motorized vehicles, and that our backcountry wildlife habitat should be protected from the negative impacts of motorized intrusion such as snowmobiles. We also believe it is the mandate of federal land-management agencies to responsibly manage motorized access to these cherished assets to ensure their protection for future generations.

As activists, WWA builds relationships with grassroots snowsports and conservation groups, providing networking opportunities and useful resources. The Alliance publicizes national issues and maintains a national presence by communicating regularly with Forest Service, Park Service, and Congressional representatives, commenting on draft plans and encouraging agencies to adopt nonmotorized-friendly policies. We provide useful information to activists through an online information clearinghouse and action alert network. And our work and initiatives continue to grow.

Pretty well lays their agenda bare.

 

[Stack]

This won't work for me. If THEY are allowed to ride OSV to get to the back country this is going to create a rub.

If they want to get 20 miles back into the back country they better plan on doing it by foot.

We (snowmobilers) have worked very hard at staying out of current restricted areas, being polite when crossing paths with skiers and such. We have learned to accept each others passions.

But I suppose I should start to complain every time I have to slow down, ride slow or stop to allow some Nancy in a nit hat pass by on a set of skies. From this point forward they are truly pissing me off disturbing MY activity!!!

Thunder

I agree, if this is the case they should NOT be allowed to use snowmobiles to get to their ski/board destinations.....strap on some snow shoes cuz if we can't ride there you sure as heck shouldn't be able to ride there.

Stack

 

[snengineer]

What is Idaho going to do about it?

 

[X2Freeride]

The answer to this is really simple. Don't register your sled in the state and don't spend ANY money riding there. If people were to actually do this the regulations would go away real quick mostly because skiers don't bring in nearly the revenue for the state. When the forest service goes bankrupt they cant enforce the regulations.

 

[redmtn]

The benefit that snowmobilers put into the economy in Idaho is unbelievable. The skiers and bicyclers not so much. We owned a restaurant in northern Idaho for about 6 years and the money spent by snowmobilers is probably 10 to 15 times what the skiers spend. Bicyclers are worse. Skiers and bikers bring 6 or 8 people into the restaurant and order a medium pizza and 1 salad bar to split and drink water. The same number of snowmobilers and ATV riders order 3 XL pizzas and 3 pitchers of beer and a pitcher of pop for the kids and may refill those before they leave. We saw this for the entire time we owned the business and other businesses in the area told the same story. Idaho needs the snowmobile industry!!!!! Green doesn't create green $$$.

don't to forget gratuety is usualy 10 to 20 percent more, and we snowmobilers are much more aprecitave of the hard working buisness owners and employees.

 

[Zrider]

We(the consumers) do a lot of bitchin' and moanin' about what riding areas we lose, what retrictions are placed on us, etc, etc. We hear and read the same chatter over and over. My question is - What are the manufacturers doing? They stand to lose a hell of lot more than any of us. If I can't ride, I don't buy. Sure would like to hear more from Polaris, Ski Doo, Cat and Yamaha.

 

[03RMK800]

The answer to this is really simple. Don't register your sled in the state and don't spend ANY money riding there. If people were to actually do this the regulations would go away real quick mostly because skiers don't bring in nearly the revenue for the state. When the forest service goes bankrupt they cant enforce the regulations.

I don't think a boycott tactic helps.
This is not the state. It is a federal court interpretation of a federal law. There might be some mileage in businesses making the pitch they should be making without consumers kicking them: senators, congressmen and all state public officials, "this is killing us."

Unfortunately, those who could help us either include, or have to deal with, those who that have bought into myths that they believe will save the earth--those who are certain that service jobs cleaning hotels and slinging fast food can replace extractive or ag or productive industry, and that bicyclers and crosscountry skiers can replace multi use that includes motorized users, hunters and others who aren't as enlightened as these psuedo conservationists.

 

[paulharris]

Public land access is something that will need to be fought for....it is no longer guaranteed. are you willing to give up this right? are you willing to sit back and let these enviros close everything down forever? that is what they are doing.....and they are committed to it....they are well organized and they have lots of money. And with the current political climate they will be successful unless we fight back. I am telling you once these lands are locked up, they will be closed forever....they will never be "opened up" again.

If we get organized and fight back we can fight the fight. But EVERYONE needs to get involved. Don't think that "someone else" is doing it because they are not. The Idaho state snowmobile association has been working on this particular issue with wwa and they have been begging for money...they need money and lots of it. it amazes me how guys will spend thousands on turbos and sleds but refuse to give a dollar to these organizations. litigation is very expensive but it is necessary. it takes more than 5 bucks. donate $50 or $100 or more. Join and donate to Blueribbon and SAWS as well. how about skipping the pipe for this season and giving that money to these organizations?

The forest service likes to deal with organizations. get your local snowmobile club organized and start making your voices heard. it can be done....here in Colorado the White river forest alliance was formed to deal with motorized closures associated with the Travel management plan and the Hidden gems wilderness.....and guess what....they scheduled meetings with WRFA and they listened....and they made changes. It works people. but you need to put forth the effort. letters and phone calls and emails from individuals are good too but they need to come from hundreds of people...not just 1 or 2 guys.

 

[jdw1]

IMO, what needs to happen is that we as snowmobilers need to be more proactive to keep land use instead of reactive to use it, seems like we are always chasing land to keep instead of securing land to use.
i didn't read all of the posts so maybe someone already stated this.

 

[scootdog]

Kidwoo has the right Idea. Get involved!

I emailed the local Forest Service Office In Truckee. Basically letting them know I would like any info on how they are going to handle the ruling. Are they looking for feedback from users? Any public forums planned? The Forest Service are not the bad guys. I've run into some they ride sleds, use them to avalanche forecast, and search and rescue. While I was talking to him he noticed I didn't have current tags. Told him I forgot to put them on, No problem he said just do it when you get home have a good ride.

The way I read it is the Forest Sevice has the power. They just need to come up with guidelines. Get in contact with your local Forest Service the more numbers that are pro snowmobile the more we count as a user group.

Mountain bikers have been fighting this for years In the SF bay area. We are looked at like adrenaline junky punks who tear up trails by the old money horse back riding crowd. Finally getting better as the number of mountain bikers is greater every year.

I also use my sled for backcountry skiing access, Skiers are not all bad.

 

[TreewellDweller]

Winter Wildlands Alliance has Attacked!

Alright folks, it is time to put our money and actions where our mouths are. The Winter Wildlands Alliance are folks that have more money and time than common sense. They are out to close as much country as they can so that the few of them, that might want to, can ski or walk in the back country without seeing or hearing a motorized vehicle. They will end up utilizing 1% of the acres they close up because they won't want to walk that far. They were told by the US Forest Service that they were unreasonable. They have been at the forefront of every motorized use on "PUBLIC" lands in the last several years. Remember, PUBLIC means all of us. We are being pushed out of our recreational areas by a few folks with buckets of money to hire any and all attorneys they need to persuade "our" courts to tie up the use of "our" land with lawsuits and judgements that benefit a very few. "Our" courts are to be used to protect us not make criminals out of us.
I apologize for ranting but this has gone too far. It is time for us to contact our Congressmen and local representatives and voice our opinions. I have contacted mine and I challenge you to do the same. I also challenge you to join a State or regional snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, or off-road vehicle organization. If you can afford it, donate to their legal fund. Idaho State Snowmobile Association is going to have their hands full trying to battle this, I know that.
I just purchased a new sled. I've been riding off and on for 20 years and this is my first new one. In 180 days I won't be able to give it away because no one will have any place to ride one.

 

[Goinboardin]

Alright folks, it is time to put our money and actions where our mouths are. The Winter Wildlands Alliance are folks that have more money and time than common sense. They are out to close as much country as they can so that the few of them, that might want to, can ski or walk in the back country without seeing or hearing a motorized vehicle. They will end up utilizing 1% of the acres they close up because they won't want to walk that far. They were told by the US Forest Service that they were unreasonable. They have been at the forefront of every motorized use on "PUBLIC" lands in the last several years. Remember, PUBLIC means all of us. We are being pushed out of our recreational areas by a few folks with buckets of money to hire any and all attorneys they need to persuade "our" courts to tie up the use of "our" land with lawsuits and judgements that benefit a very few. "Our" courts are to be used to protect us not make criminals out of us.
I apologize for ranting but this has gone too far. It is time for us to contact our Congressmen and local representatives and voice our opinions. I have contacted mine and I challenge you to do the same. I also challenge you to join a State or regional snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, or off-road vehicle organization. If you can afford it, donate to their legal fund. Idaho State Snowmobile Association is going to have their hands full trying to battle this, I know that.
I just purchased a new sled. I've been riding off and on for 20 years and this is my first new one. In 180 days I won't be able to give it away because no one will have any place to ride one.

Its always time to do that. But I hear ya.

Few years back I got a personal call from the US rep from MN after I sent a letter expressing my concern over an upcoming land bill in the House (I was technically a MN resident, living in CO). Its important to remember that Joe-blow midwestern/easterner congressman has a say in land bills that effect us westerners too... Sound logic & calm presentation of the truth goes a ways towards gaining an otherwise unexepected ally in the good fight.

I don't know how to get it through to people the extent of our existing wilderness areas. I like some wilderness areas for backpacking, but I know we have enough. I went 5 DAYS, ~70 miles without seeing a soul in the CO wilderness (not all was wilderness) last summer, on trail the whole time.

Someone above mentioned the Hidden Gems deal from CO a few years back, that was a good example of the public voicing their opinion. I remember having to just stand outside the court room building in Gunnison because so many of use showed up to voice our opinions. So to those that feel discouraged, it can work out. I know it won't all the time, but if we just ignore the attacks it won't work out any of the time.

 

[03RMK800]

a few folks with buckets of money to hire any and all attorneys they need to persuade "our" courts to tie up the use of "our" land with lawsuits and judgements that benefit a very few.

When they win, they get a judgment for attorneys fees, which the United States (or possibly even a protesting other user/group) has to pay. What is going on is an industry where the enviros are not just winning closure orders, they are winning taxpayer dollars. Having been through the calculus in civil rights suits, I frankly believe they are making a profit on the attorneys fees. They pay inhouse counsel some figure that costs the organization less than $100 per hour, or they get a favorable rate from a specialist lawfirm. When either wins, they apply to the court at open market rates of 250 to 350 per hour. (That would be a Colorado rate-- average attorneys fees here are less per hour than East Coast or West Coast counsel think they are worth).

If motorized users sued the government, we could get the same deal. If we sue the enviros, there isn't much chance at all of recovering attorneys fees. "Isn't much chance" should be figured as zero.

 

[kidwoo]

The Idaho state snowmobile association has been working on this particular issue with wwa and they have been begging for money...they need money and lots of it.

Have they issued any kind of statement yet?

I wonder what their approach is going to be. Part of the OSV designation even existing shows that sleds was considered in the planning. It's kind of like bitching about airplanes not being included in OHV regulation.

There's a similar group to WWA here called snowlands. They've got flat out lies on their website stating that the MAJORITY of access points are open to sleds in California. I'm sure WWA probably claims something similar. It's pretty easy (at least here) to very quickly do some math and point out how much more land is open to non motorized use than to sleds.

 

[christopher]

its a money making business to be sure.