Ahhh, our great President of the United States

[bonz50]

I'm sorry to piss your simple little brain off.

In no way is a violation of the Geneva Convention Acceptable on any side of the war. Our President and Vice President directed these violations and have pardoned themselves and the administration for these acts. If you violate international law just like the Islamic Extremest have, then you in turn, are just as bad. Why not do things the correct way or work to change international law instead of going about it with your head in the sand and break the law and then pardon yourself.

Geneva was pertaining to the military's treatment of an opposing state's military... the terrorists are not a state military operation, Geneva does not apply in this instance... doesn't mean we shouldn't abide by it, but also means we should have the ability to abandon it if required...

How many soldiers, civilians, and innocent people have we "Accidentally" killed in order to get to the terrorists? A lot more than were killed in 9/11.

apparently not enough were killed or they wouldn't be fighting back...

fwiw - while I don't like civilian casualties, let's not forget that we are talkin about war... not a baseball game... innocent people die in war, its a fact of life, if you can't accept that then you have no business being in a position to have to make a difficult decision...

I support the Republican party when it stood for right and fiscal responsibility. The GOP. The real Deal - not this crap we see today from a loser of a President who has lied and cheated his way into success. He has ruined the reputation of the GOP.

I won't disagree with this, bush has had a couple of successes and right calls, but VERY few, he has no clue about fiscal responsibility or the small govt mantra that conservatives want... he may be republican, but he's not conservative by any stretch...

Dwight's opinion is true. This war is about money and government contracts - military industrial complex, but I'm sure that you enjoy the 15 trillion dollars of National Debt, which is mostly held by foreign countries like China....... or do you not see a problem with any of this.

Ike's opinion has merit, but isn't always true...

 

[bonz50]

I think that is a great quote and describes our President and Administration perfectly. I highlighted the best areas

and you don't think that many of the Dems most infamous spokes people fit this bill even better??? sarandon and robbins, streisand, kennedy, pelosi, harry reid or john murtha????????

 

[Jimi Cocktails]

streisand - LOL

I would say it is equally as fitting and I am going to go spend my $1200 on a new TV to make Nancy Pelosi proud of joining the ranks of putting us further in Debt

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/24/economic.stimulus/index.html

 

[TDubya]

Right on Ollie, I hate it when people like TDubya defend thoss bastards.

When did I defend the terrorist?????

I hate when people like SAWYER can't read or possibly comprehend a full paragraph. Seriously, when did I defend the terrorists. Nice blanket statement.

The problem with people like TDubya is they are ingulfed by the media and they want to defend those f*cking sand niggers rights more than our soldiers.

Another blanket statement, without merit. By following the GC the States are
taking the high road. Sorry you have a problem with that.

Like Ollie said "it's a war". They started it, not us. So f*ck em'. They don't deserve sh*t

If it's a war you have to follow the rules .... unless you're a terrorist group. The GC does not cover terrorist groups though. But that's not my fault ... or is it? Cause it seems as though some of you believe that it is my fault.

Like I said in a previous post in regards to this thread, Bush did not pardon himself because of torture allegations. He pardonned himself because he will soon run into GC problems regarding the designation of the prisoners in Cuba. Are they POW's or are they regular prisoners and how will they be treated.

POW's are released after the war is over ..... regular prisoners have a right to a fair and speedy trial. You do see the dilemna don't you?

Some how this post became a a thread on torture and it amazes me how many of you will defend the use of it. I will not defend the use of torture under any curcunstances. Are the terrorists using it? Yes, I believe they are. Does that give the allied forces the right to use it? No. Not in my opinion.

If you want to take me to task on my stance on torture by all means, please do. But if you are gonna put words in my mouth regarding defending the rights of the terrorists over the allied soldiers .... WTF is that all about???

Ollie said they are animals and should be treated as such. This attitude is not the attitude of most soldiers fighting. How can someone make a statement like that and still claim they are in the region doing good. What? they are doing good as far as the treatment of animals go???????
Yet not many on here will question that statement? I guess there are no Christians on here who have a problem with a human being treated as an animal?

As far as torture goes .... it doesn't work. This is a known fact. If you want to get information out of someone .... I'm sure the CIA has drugs that work quite fine.
Torture is more mental than physical. The sooner it is used the more useful it is but after a period of time the information becomes useless. Anyone who is willing to blow themselves up, will get through a session.
Did the Vietmanese get anything useful out of the pilots? Not really.

The side that is tortured gets more impact from the use of torture. Hatred is built up amonst the soldiers and a fear of being captured and tortured over rides ones ability to surrender. Giving an Army that fight to the death attitude that works real well during wars.
I believe it was the Romans that would take some of there fallen soldiers and descecrate the remains and then claim it was the enemy who did it. In doing so the soldiers would fight with a lot more determination and also would be less likely to go AWOL.

 

[SAWYER]

War has rules?

"Ok guys, no shooting below the waist and i'll scratch the out of bounds lines in the sand" "oh yeah, we each get 3 timeouts too"

God f*cking damnit, I hate to see what this country looks like in 30 years when over half of the population has turned into a bunch of p*ssys

I suppose your for gay marriage too?

 

[Meatman]

bonz...sorry to say this but the GC does have jurisdiction over this....I looked it up because I was under the same impression. Article 1 and 2

 

[Meatman]

The army has taken a turn for the worse due to political correctiveness....I talked to someone that finished basic within the last year and they said when the performed good in BRM, PT, or DNC they were awarded with a pizza party...I couldnt believe it. We were honor plt when I was in boot camp and do you know what we got? the **** smoked out of us. It's sure not what it used to be. We have become too cocky and too complacent. I don't think we have 30 years, I give us 12 before we see economical breakdown. The next 4 will tell us what we're are going to be facing. We can pull the troops out but we will be fighting a ghost on our turf. Maybe then we'll see the patriotism that was so prevelant after 9/11/01.

 

[bonz50]

bonz...sorry to say this but the GC does have jurisdiction over this....I looked it up because I was under the same impression. Article 1 and 2

then there needs to be another geneva convention to redefine the basis of enemy combatant... according to geneva (and what was taught to me during my military days), if I take a prisoner or war, I must give him half my food, half my water, and protect his life with mine including (but not limited to) giving him my kevlar helmet and flak jacket as well... once we were done with that period of training our drill sgt's told us simply, well, don't take prisoners then........

 

[bonz50]

The army has taken a turn for the worse due to political correctiveness....I talked to someone that finished basic within the last year and they said when the performed good in BRM, PT, or DNC they were awarded with a pizza party...I couldnt believe it. We were honor plt when I was in boot camp and do you know what we got? the **** smoked out of us. It's sure not what it used to be. We have become too cocky and too complacent. I don't think we have 30 years, I give us 12 before we see economical breakdown. The next 4 will tell us what we're are going to be facing. We can pull the troops out but we will be fighting a ghost on our turf. Maybe then we'll see the patriotism that was so prevelant after 9/11/01.

same here, I attended the Benning School for Boys back about 1989-1990... honor platoon, while being a fine and dandy honor, certainly didn't entitle you to anything other than we were allowed to get a slightly different haircut for graduation, we were allowed to have the 1/4 pounder instead of the standard buzz

 

[Meatman]

I agree with you 100% about redefining the GCC but unfortunately it's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Jimi Cocktails]

I agree with you 100% about redefining the GCC but unfortunately it's not going to happen anytime soon.

agree and I alreay stated that. Don't break the fuggin rules and lie your way out is my point

 

[Ollie]

A comment was made about the US killing civilians.
the terrorist hide among the civilians and force them to stand in front of them as they fight. They use the deaths of civilians as a propaganda tool against the war. The Dems grab onto the same thing and claim it is the US doing the killing.

The greatest tool the terrorist have to win the war is Democrats.

Oh and you can't use drugs to get information. That is torture. The Dems already banned the use of drugs. You say they should use mental vs physical means to get information. What do you think water boarding does??
It is strictly a mental thing, yet everyone jumps on that as toruture.

I still haven't heard one concrete idea as to how to handle the terrorist and how to get the information we need to win.

 

[Supplicate]

I still haven't heard one concrete idea as to how to handle the terrorist and how to get the information we need to win.

Where was it that the US general had a pit dug and filled with dead pigs, killed all the islamic participants in the uprising except one and burried them in the pit with the pigs letting the one go free to tell the others what waited for them if they went against us? That kind of tactic could sure cure this one quickly.

 

[TDubya]

You say they should use mental vs physical means to get information.

I didn't say that. Your reading skills leave a lot to be desired.

haven't heard one concrete idea as to how to handle the terrorist and how to get the information we need to win.

I didn't say I had any answers regarding ending the war.
What kind of terrorists could possibly give you any important information that would end the war. It's not like they're hiding nuclear missle cites. You think these guys know where Osama is?
The only important info these guys could possibly have is # of weapons and # of terrorists in his cell, and maybe direction they were heading.

 

[Wade]

High Contracting Parties: I don't see any Terrorist names on the signatories list. But:

* That the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. "...Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."

I think the bold speaks for itself.

* Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:
o 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
o 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
+ that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
+ that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
+ that of carrying arms openly;
+ that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
o 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
o 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
o 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
o 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
o 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.

* Article 5 specifies that prisoners of war (as defined in article 4) are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation. It also specifies that when there is any doubt whether a combatant belongs to the categories in article 4, they should be treated as such until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

This also speaks for itself. They only receive Geneva protection if they act in accordance with it.

In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered "unlawful" or "unprivileged" combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action. Both lawful and unlawful combatants may be interned in wartime, may be interrogated and may be prosecuted for war crimes. Both are entitled to humane treatment in the hands of the enemy."

POW or Murder.

 

[Ollie]

I didn't say I had any answers regarding ending the war.
What kind of terrorists could possibly give you any important information that would end the war. It's not like they're hiding nuclear missle cites. You think these guys know where Osama is?
The only important info these guys could possibly have is # of weapons and # of terrorists in his cell, and maybe direction they were heading.

You said and I quote..

As far as torture goes .... it doesn't work. This is a known fact. If you want to get information out of someone .... I'm sure the CIA has drugs that work quite fine.
Torture is more mental than physical.

What kind of info?!?!
The information as to who is in their cell and what they are planning IS THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO END TERRORISM!!!!!
Osama is just a figure head. If we killed him today it wouldn't make a difference. It's a religion you are fighting. Until enough muslims learn that violence isn't working, nothing will change. That is why if the dems get their way and we surrender Iraq and just leave, the terrorist will simply stand up, point and say they defeated the United States. You think that won't be a recruiting tool?? Everyone wants to be on the winning side.

Now in Iraq it is starting to work. The murderous methods the terrorist use is starting to backfire on them. If we pull out now, they win. Their idioligy (sp?) will spread and be 1000 times worse to deal with.

I am not happy we went in, but we are there now. We have to finish what we started.

 

[Meatman]

supplicate you are looking for general "black jack" pershing problem is the story has never been proved,