23 to 24 million more acres of wilderness proposed in five western states

[Dogmeat]

I have read some decent posts from you in the past Dogmeat - posts where it seemed you were at least willing to try and win this fight by being involved before some particular closure may occur - but in this thread it seems you are advacating that we snowmobilers should all no longer even try to stop these closures. Do nothing about them, and just give up and ride them once they are closed.

Am I missing something, or is that what it has come down to for you and many others? Because if that is where you and most other snowmobilers are now at, then I am certainly wasting my free time on land access, and I guess I also should just give up and let the government do what ever it wants to do without any flack from the snowmobile crowd.

It seems some go down fighting, and some just go down. I prefer to be in the group that fights this crap until the end.

I guess honestly I am so sick and tired of the liberal wilderness juggernaut I don't see this as a battle we are ever going to win. It's being supported from the urban population centers of the country and they are only getting larger and larger and larger and larger and will continue to do so. Rural America is going to have less and less and less of a voice. This has been something that's been steadily building for the last 40 years, it wasn't like this was invented this century, but quite honestly, I don't think we can stop this ... Eventually every national forest and sand dune, lake, river, stream, EVERYTHING is going to be declared "Wilderness" ...

The sick part of all this is, it has _NOTHING_ to do with preservation or "saving the environment", it exists soley for the sake of producing political power and quite frankly I am not convinced it's not ultimatley a conspiracy to shut down the development of natural resources in this part of the country as well. I think it all goes hand in hand.

As far as my broader sociopolitical viewpoint goes, I think that what happened to russia in the late 80's and 90's will eventually happen here, and quite honestly I hope it does. I am *SICK* of southern california or east coast liberals dictating how we have to live our lives out here so they can drum up votes for themselves back home.

Don't get me wrong, I am fighting this every way I know how. Every time this has come up I've set a letter to my represenative and/or senator about it. Hell last time I even sent letters to senators that I don't even live in their state. All I'm saying is, it's a losing battle ... as much as I hate having a defeatist attitude, I don't see where this is going to get better.

That's why I quite literally am advocating here mass civil disobedience. Let them make it a wilderness area. I'm gonna go ride there until they physically stop me. Arrest me, impound my sled, fine, I don't care ... I'll make as big of a political statement as I have to.

This seriously causes me to lose sleep at night. Really, it does. I drive down the highway or up in the mountains and I find myself just shaking my head going "One day the idiot greenies are going to take this from us" and I can't stand that thought .... but we are NOT gonna win this fighting in court.

We're on the wrong side of the spectrum. The people preaching this to the urban population centers that support this horse **** have spoon fed these people their new relegion, and to them, we're the antichrist.

I mean those goes beyond land closures, it's at the point you have to take into account the cultural shifting of the country here, and that is COMPLETLEY out of our control, and those with a leftiest greenie agenda are gonna milk that for all it's woth...

again, I hate this idea, but seriously, I will not abide by it. I view it in the same manner as a black woman sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in the 50's quite frankly.

 

[donbrown]

I guess honestly I am so sick and tired of the liberal wilderness juggernaut I don't see this as a battle we are ever going to win. It's being supported from the urban population centers of the country and they are only getting larger and larger and larger and larger and will continue to do so. Rural America is going to have less and less and less of a voice. This has been something that's been steadily building for the last 40 years, it wasn't like this was invented this century, but quite honestly, I don't think we can stop this ... Eventually every national forest and sand dune, lake, river, stream, EVERYTHING is going to be declared "Wilderness" ...

The sick part of all this is, it has _NOTHING_ to do with preservation or "saving the environment", it exists soley for the sake of producing political power and quite frankly I am not convinced it's not ultimatley a conspiracy to shut down the development of natural resources in this part of the country as well. I think it all goes hand in hand.

As far as my broader sociopolitical viewpoint goes, I think that what happened to russia in the late 80's and 90's will eventually happen here, and quite honestly I hope it does. I am *SICK* of southern california or east coast liberals dictating how we have to live our lives out here so they can drum up votes for themselves back home.

Don't get me wrong, I am fighting this every way I know how. Every time this has come up I've set a letter to my represenative and/or senator about it. Hell last time I even sent letters to senators that I don't even live in their state. All I'm saying is, it's a losing battle ... as much as I hate having a defeatist attitude, I don't see where this is going to get better.

That's why I quite literally am advocating here mass civil disobedience. Let them make it a wilderness area. I'm gonna go ride there until they physically stop me. Arrest me, impound my sled, fine, I don't care ... I'll make as big of a political statement as I have to.

This seriously causes me to lose sleep at night. Really, it does. I drive down the highway or up in the mountains and I find myself just shaking my head going "One day the idiot greenies are going to take this from us" and I can't stand that thought .... but we are NOT gonna win this fighting in court.

We're on the wrong side of the spectrum. The people preaching this to the urban population centers that support this horse **** have spoon fed these people their new relegion, and to them, we're the antichrist.

I mean those goes beyond land closures, it's at the point you have to take into account the cultural shifting of the country here, and that is COMPLETLEY out of our control, and those with a leftiest greenie agenda are gonna milk that for all it's woth...

again, I hate this idea, but seriously, I will not abide by it. I view it in the same manner as a black woman sitting at the front of the bus in alabama in the 50's quite frankly.

AS I live in Southern California I must agree every big city has hoards of people who think the country boys are building huge log cabins , 4WD all over the place while chucking beer cans to mark their path.

When they insist to me the only answer is to have it all wilderness I have a multiple strategy.

I show the pictures of all the pipes and dams so the city steals the water. Remind anyone near San Francisco of Hetch Hetchy

A wilderness designation will not stop , erosion , forest fires and insects imported from China products.

Plus when the forest does burn , I guarantee nature / lightinmg or some city slicker will throw out a cigarete and causes a fire. It destroys a habitat and noone can put it out because of the law, it pollutes the water you are piping out the mountain, it pollutes streams / rivers , and the smoke doesn't stay in the wilderness. It goes to places like Sacramento and kills old people with breathing difficulties and harms children's respiratory system.

Plus it cost California 5 billion dollars last year to fight them.

I end up telling them I grew up in the country and moved here in the city for a job. So I don't think you know how to be a good neighbor , just a selfish not in my back yard , give me what I want city slicker.

If they don't get it then I ask them what the city they lived in looked like a 100 years ago.

 

[CleElum Sledhead]

I guess honestly I am so sick and tired of the liberal wilderness juggernaut....

Thank you for the very thorough response explaining your position Dogmeat. I am glad to hear that you are still in the fight. What people do after the fight might be lost, is not my concern.

As I have previously stated, if this bill becomes law, for all practical purposes I will consider the fight lost myself and will probably just move on to some other form of recreation.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[snowmobiler]

with people like dogmeat on our side,we have a real good chance of stopping some of the bs land closuers.thanks dogmeat.
hang in there dave. SAWS is working here in oregon.im sure we filled up the FS with letters and emails recently,thanks to you and others.

 

[donbrown]

with people like dogmeat on our side,we have a real good chance of stopping some of the bs land closuers.thanks dogmeat.
hang in there dave. SAWS is working here in oregon.im sure we filled up the FS with letters and emails recently,thanks to you and others.

What is SAWS specifically doing to change the USA attitude to keeping the

forest the "LAND OF MANY USES"


http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_exist_uses.shtml

 

[snowmobiler]

like a commercial on tv someday.?LOL.im lost.that zoomed right over my head.are you asking a question?signup here...
http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/

 

[Dogmeat]

like a commercial on tv someday.?LOL.im lost.that zoomed right over my head.are you asking a question?signup here...
http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/

What he's saying is that the liberal media and the "Captain Save-a-World" crowd have a massive financial backing. They take out ads, they spew propaghanda, they have a very well-organized media machine.

We don't have anything close to that. This is not a knock against BRC or SAWS, in fact quite the opposite, but a comparison of scale here.

On their side, they have the SUPER SUPER SUPER elite rich buying off the super-super-super poor into thinking that by somhow supporting their agenda it benefits them.

Explain to me how making the entire Rocky Mountain West a gigantic wilderness area / vacation home for southern california's elite has a god damned thing to do with stopping gang violence or helping out poor people?

It doesn't but these people buy into their bull**** hook line and sinker and once they're in power we're the ones who get screwed.

They have the media machine behind them, we don't ....

I don't know what the answer to this is, other than it would be really nice if SAWS and BRC had the wealth of doners the greenies have.

What pisses me off is I have never seen where any of the manufacturers have EVER really done anything to benefit themselves by benefitting the rest of us. Why are there no links to BRC on Yamaha, Polaris, Cat, Can-Am's website trying to get ALL of their customers to support access rights?

That is seriously rediculous to me ... it directly effects their bottom line, so why not support it? Make a partnership with organizations that already exist or put some corporate muscle behind a new organization and get people involved.

Why not donate even 0.5% of the net profit made off each ATV or sled sale to one of these organizations? Do something to get some mobilization here from the top down ...

It's a great thing BRC and SAWS do, but we can all see that it's clearly not anywhere near enough....there just simply isn't the financial backing.

I don't know if members of BRC and/or SAWS have ever approached the manufacturers and laid this out of them or not, but ultimatley, and sooner rather than later, they are going to take a HUGE hit because of this. I don't think Polaris can make a business out of just selling Rangers to construction companies, ya know?

Something to think about.

 

[snowmobiler]

ooo,i see.well i dought we can change the worlds opinion now.sleds and dirt bikes are a drop in the bucket.but with saws,we have and will keep some riding areas open.its working here.

 

[Oregongirl]

What is SAWS specifically doing to change the USA attitude to keeping the

forest the "LAND OF MANY USES"


http://www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_exist_uses.shtml

Mr. Brown - what are YOU doing to change peoples attitude? Have you written your policitical representative today??? Are you lobbying all of your friends and family to get involved and voice their concerns??

Are you aware that while we do have SAWS members in CA that NO ONE has stepped up to be the SAWS Rep in CA??? Are you interested in that role?? SAWS membership is free of charge. Who is watching your riding areas and informing you of closures or changing access rights???

I can tell you that the current SAWS volunteers spend a GREAT deal of their free time just staying abreast of closures in the states we represent. It's all we can do to just stay on top of the big closures and notify our members how they can take action to opposed them. And still - closures are happening even with our involvement.

I personally have reached my limits on many occasions this past year alone, and almost walked away from the fight. BUT....at the end of the day I cannot simply sit aside and watch the government take away what is rightfully MINE!!! So - I do what I can to inform, educate, lobby and PRAY that it will make a difference.

Snowmobiler....thanks for your words and your support!! We'll continue to do what we can - I hope it's enough.

Susie Rainsberry
SAWS Oregon Representative

 

[snowmobiler]

ttt

 

[donbrown]

Mr. Brown - what are YOU doing to change peoples attitude? Have you written your policitical representative today??? Are you lobbying all of your friends and family to get involved and voice their concerns??

Are you aware that while we do have SAWS members in CA that NO ONE has stepped up to be the SAWS Rep in CA??? Are you interested in that role?? SAWS membership is free of charge. Who is watching your riding areas and informing you of closures or changing access rights???

I can tell you that the current SAWS volunteers spend a GREAT deal of their free time just staying abreast of closures in the states we represent. It's all we can do to just stay on top of the big closures and notify our members how they can take action to opposed them. And still - closures are happening even with our involvement.

I personally have reached my limits on many occasions this past year alone, and almost walked away from the fight. BUT....at the end of the day I cannot simply sit aside and watch the government take away what is rightfully MINE!!! So - I do what I can to inform, educate, lobby and PRAY that it will make a difference.

Snowmobiler....thanks for your words and your support!! We'll continue to do what we can - I hope it's enough.

Susie Rainsberry
SAWS Oregon Representative

I am a SAWS member.

I call and write my appointed and elected officials.

In fact I was in a several hour "discussion" with several NFS personnel about their disapproval letting the Government land be that of the land of many uses.

My family does call and write my appointed and elected officials.
Fred Wiley watches over the California areas.
Plus I am a member of various snowmobile organizations.

Why am I not a SAWS representative? I don't know what you guys do.

Is your post a typical example of what a SAWS
representative does to get people to join the cause of enjoying our forest with snowmobiling?

If YOU need help let me know cause WE need to keep OUR forest open to the people who REALLY want to use it.

Well gotta go. I am sponsoring a snowmobile days here in Southern California at a local church. Gotta go get some snow.

 

[snowmobiler]

edit

 

[donbrown]

edit

you should keep you orinal quote

 

[snowmobiler]

noim from canoga park.hows the weather down there?

 

[snowmobiler]

"If YOU need help let me know"

any good ideas on how to...

"specifically change the USA attitude to keeping the
forest the "LAND OF MANY USES"????????

 

[donbrown]

noim from canoga park.hows the weather down there?

Suppose to be 72 today. Snow is 200 miles away and we found a local company who will truck in snow for cheap so we are not gonna truck pool up to MT PINOS. I worked in Woodland Hills for many years.

IMHO

SAWS needs to let the public understand and eventually create an attitude that the land MUST be used fairly and "WILDERNESS DESIGNATION" means , loss of jobs, loss of revenues, more cost, Dangerous environmental conditions , and INCREASED DEATH AND ILLNESS TO THE PEOPLE OF THE USA.

So .... SAWS people ... how much MERCURY is released per acre in a forest fire? How much carbon ash and pollutants will go into the streams and kill the marine life?

Don't take this as an attack ... EDUCATE THE MASSES WITH A COMMON GOOD OR GET THEM TO FEAR LOSS OF THEIR WAY OF LIFE.

And when the environmentalist smartazz say it is nature ... say so is cancer but we treat it so it doesn't kill us. (It doesn't answer their question but shows how primitive the topic has begun)

How much money and how many miles of FIRE BREAKS and TRAILS TO allow access and removal of rescue equipment does the snowmobile / hunting / off road community contribute?

How many jobs will be lost when we DON"T buy the snow plow , a snow Kat , snowmobile , belts , bolts, gloves , boots or build a YURT , cabin , porta potty , don't hire a mechanic to fix it or a driver to use it? Don't get a beer and sandwich at the local store?

You need to make them regret the day the think NATURE can do whatever it wants and not cost to mankind in lifestyle , fiscal and political survival.

You need to let them know they support terrorist by not using our RENEWABLW NATURAL RESOURCES like geothermal , hydroelectric , wind and solar in the valleys streams , rivers of the forest.

OH wait SAN FRANCISCO PERSONALLY DESTROYED an area of the Sierra Nevadas called Hetch Hetchy . The most overzealous society in the USA is allowed to get away with EVIRONMENTAL ALTERATION ON A MASS SCALE AND NOONE DOES ANYTHING ABOUT IT. THIS IS NANCY PELOSI DISTRICT who just received over 50 million dollars from the stimulus package to protect a mouse .

http://www.bawua.org/hetch.html






__________________

 

[CleElum Sledhead]

I see that you are still online Don, so here goes my attempt to answer a few of your questions and explain a little about SAWS, and what the volunteers at SAWS are attempting to do.

Don, here are a few of my responses to your statements and questions:

I am a SAWS member.

Great. Thanks for joining Don.

I call and write my appointed and elected officials.

My family does call and write my appointed and elected officials.

Great again. Wish more snowmobilers would take the time to do so.

Fred Wiley watches over the California areas. Plus I am a member of various snowmobile organizations.

I know Fred, the President of CNSA, and I have talked to him a couple of times about land use issues. I am glad to hear that everything seems to be taken care of in CA and NV these days. In my last conversation with Fred, it seemed that CNSA could only do so much, due to the lack of concern and involvement from the general snowmobile crowd in CA. Hopefully something has recently changed.

SAWS has the same "lack of involvement" problem in numerous states, but many snowmobilers (certainly not all) in CA and NV seem to be among some of the least concerned about loss of riding areas if membership in CNSA and SAWS from these states are a sign of how many people care to get involved from these states. I don't have the figures in front of me at my current location, but I believe our total SAWS membership from these two states is around 100 members combined out of over 3000 plus current SAWS members, and we have not had a SAWS rep in these states for several years.

Why am I not a SAWS representative? I don't know what you guys do.

I can provide you a detailed description of the responsibilities of a SAWS rep if you wish and are truly interested. Note, these are not paid positions. There are no paid positions in SAWS. We are all volunteers.

Is your post a typical example of what a SAWS
representative does to get people to join the cause of enjoying our forest with snowmobiling?

Did I miss something? I did not see anything wrong with Susie's post. You can tell she is frustrated, as I am too, with the lack of volunteer help for SAWS. At the same time we always have a few people that expect SAWS to do this or that, which is either not tied to our mission statement, or that the few of us volunteers do not have the time or energy to take on. Sorry if you were somehow offended by her plea for more people to help us keep our riding areas open and for snowmobilers in general to get involved. Sounds like you do get involved to some degree. Good for you.

If YOU need help let me know cause WE need to keep OUR forest open to the people who REALLY want to use it..

SAWS needs help in every western state, especially in CA, NV, WY, CO and UT. Even if it is just an hour a week, we could use the help. We may need to step away from some of these states soon without additional help.

Here are links to some additional information about SAWS, what we do, and how you can help.

Who is the Snowmobile Alliance of Western States?
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39187


SAWS National Forest Watchdogs Needed NOW
http://www.klymazzation.com/saws-national-forest-watchdogs-needed-now/

Thanks,

Dave

 

[snowmobiler]

wow 72.well if you get a pic of snowmobile days in "LA".post one.thanks

 

[Dogmeat]

Dave, maybe you can shed some light on this.

Why don't we see more manufacturer/dealer involvement with BRC and SAWS and the like? I know that FMF Exhaust sends out BRC membership forms whenever you purchase an exhaust from them (that'd be cool if they'd start making sled exhausts!) but I have yet to see any other manufacturer, aftermarket or otherwise, actually do something to support the few options we have for pro-access action groups.

You would think it would be in Polaris, Yamaha, Can-Am, Arctic Cat, as well as Honda, Suzuki, etc's best interest to put even a small portion of their revenues into promoting pro access groups as well as heavily lobbying washington. Fight fire with fire.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any of them do this.

What is SAWS take on trying to get manufacturers and dealers involved?

I have yet to go to an ATV dealer and see a BRC or SAWS banner on their wall. You'd think that'd be the first thing they'd put up.

 

[donbrown]

wow 72.well if you get a pic of snowmobile days in "LA".post one.thanks

Los Angeles County has an elevation from sea level to 10,000 FEET. We have snow. Can't ride in most of it ... (okay about a hundred miles of trails with every environment whacko video taping you and daring you make a mistake)