How do I remove these bearings? Since they are so close to the gear I can't get much under the bearing to hold it.
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2009-2011 Diamond Drive Bearing Failure
- Thread starter RickM
- Start date
How do I remove these bearings? Since they are so close to the gear I can't get much under the bearing to hold it.
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So the posi lock fingers must be small enough huh? The fingers on mine are too thick.
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The posi lock puller does have thin jaws and a better angle than most pullers. The biggest advantage is the 3 jaws will clamp against what ur pulling. If the angle is right when clamping, u can force the jaws behind the object and get a good bite.
Thanks, got them w/ a screwdriver. What about this now? Did I push a metal collar out? I pushed both seals and the bearing toward the inside of the DD.
The last pic is the broken metal piece in place of where I think I sheared it from.
New back casing? Seems like the seals will still push in tight......
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The last pic is the broken metal piece in place of where I think I sheared it from.
New back casing? Seems like the seals will still push in tight......
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Finally got around to changing out the 6203 bearing. My 09 M8 has 1,375 miles on it and the bearing seemed good to me but I replaced it anyways with the 5203 bearing. Just like others the gasket was trashed taking it apart so I am glad I ordered a new gasket at the same time as the bearing.
I also replaced the M6 x 1 button heads with replacements from Lowes. I also used the Amsoil chain and gear lube.
It all went back together just fine. Thank you to all the posts especially the pics!
I also replaced the M6 x 1 button heads with replacements from Lowes. I also used the Amsoil chain and gear lube.
It all went back together just fine. Thank you to all the posts especially the pics!
This is a good thread full of excellent info on the DD problems. I've got an '09 TM8, Cutler Stage II. When I bought it, the DD was completely toast, only thing not damaged was the case. Put a good used DD in with a new wide bearing. Could see damage to the seal on the bearing. Original DD had planetary failure, I'm thinking too much side load on long pulls. Anyway, I took .055" off the axle since the DD cover went on tight, but the DD case wouldn't fit tight to tunnel, feeler gauges showed the .055"
I'm now upgrading to the DD lite and lightweight axle from BDX to handle the extra power of boost. My question is; I've read that the DD lite design has addressed these issues and I shouldn't have to machine the new shaft, is this true? I've already sent PM and email to BDX with no reply.
Next question is, could we just machine the bearing stop right off the brake side of the axle/driveshaft and let the axle "float" since it's bolted to the DD output gear and has the nut on brake side holding it in? where would it go? and then no side load/clearance issue's? or am I way off with that idea?
I'm going through my friends '11 now since the brake side bearings are shot, might as well measure it up and blueprint while it's apart
I'm now upgrading to the DD lite and lightweight axle from BDX to handle the extra power of boost. My question is; I've read that the DD lite design has addressed these issues and I shouldn't have to machine the new shaft, is this true? I've already sent PM and email to BDX with no reply.
Next question is, could we just machine the bearing stop right off the brake side of the axle/driveshaft and let the axle "float" since it's bolted to the DD output gear and has the nut on brake side holding it in? where would it go? and then no side load/clearance issue's? or am I way off with that idea?
I'm going through my friends '11 now since the brake side bearings are shot, might as well measure it up and blueprint while it's apart
"Could see damage to the seal on the bearing." Never heard of a DD that ran better with seals on the 6203 / 5203 / 3203 bearing, and know of several indications that bearing seals are bad (overheating, grease contamination, etc.)
"Original DD had planetary failure, I'm thinking too much side load." Side load appears to be the only true root cause.
"I took 0.055" off the axle since the DD cover went on tight, but the DD case wouldn't fit tight to tunnel, feeler gauges showed the 0.055"." Good decision and a proper fix! My 2009 M8 was similar and my 2011 HCR was 0.135".
"I'm now upgrading to the DD lite and lightweight axle from BDX to handle the extra power of boost. My question is; I've read that the DD lite design has addressed these issues and I shouldn't have to machine the new shaft, is this true?" Don't know how the DD lite is designed internally. Can't speak to that. The original DD did not have any shoulder or snap ring to prevent the track drive shaft from pushing into the DD, which overloads the little bearing. The opposite is not true, the track drive shaft can operate in tension, supported by the large output shaft bearing inside the DD and the brake-side track drive shaft bearing, both of which are large enough to handle some axial load from flexing the aluminum tunnel a few thousands. Best to have no tunnel flex, but some tension on the drive shaft is better than any compression.
"Next question is, could we just machine the bearing stop right off the brake side of the axle/driveshaft and let the axle "float" since it's bolted to the DD output gear and has the nut on brake side holding it in? where would it go? and then no side load/clearance issue's? Or am I way off with that idea?" I think you need something to hold the drive shaft centered in the tunnel, when your riding and applying side-loads, like power slides, side-hilling, etc.
"I'm going through my friends '11 now since the brake side bearings are shot, might as well measure it up and blueprint while it's apart." Here's what I found on my 2011, see post #22 in this thread: www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310238
Good Luck!
"Original DD had planetary failure, I'm thinking too much side load." Side load appears to be the only true root cause.
"I took 0.055" off the axle since the DD cover went on tight, but the DD case wouldn't fit tight to tunnel, feeler gauges showed the 0.055"." Good decision and a proper fix! My 2009 M8 was similar and my 2011 HCR was 0.135".
"I'm now upgrading to the DD lite and lightweight axle from BDX to handle the extra power of boost. My question is; I've read that the DD lite design has addressed these issues and I shouldn't have to machine the new shaft, is this true?" Don't know how the DD lite is designed internally. Can't speak to that. The original DD did not have any shoulder or snap ring to prevent the track drive shaft from pushing into the DD, which overloads the little bearing. The opposite is not true, the track drive shaft can operate in tension, supported by the large output shaft bearing inside the DD and the brake-side track drive shaft bearing, both of which are large enough to handle some axial load from flexing the aluminum tunnel a few thousands. Best to have no tunnel flex, but some tension on the drive shaft is better than any compression.
"Next question is, could we just machine the bearing stop right off the brake side of the axle/driveshaft and let the axle "float" since it's bolted to the DD output gear and has the nut on brake side holding it in? where would it go? and then no side load/clearance issue's? Or am I way off with that idea?" I think you need something to hold the drive shaft centered in the tunnel, when your riding and applying side-loads, like power slides, side-hilling, etc.
"I'm going through my friends '11 now since the brake side bearings are shot, might as well measure it up and blueprint while it's apart." Here's what I found on my 2011, see post #22 in this thread: www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310238
Good Luck!
Thanks for the reply Paul27 We cut .060" off the brake side of the axle, on the collar/bearing land there and it fit tight after that. DD cover went on tight, since he had the drive built just a year ago, it was all in good shape, had the wide bearing ect. It should be relatively trouble free now. Someone posted on the procedure to remove the brake caliper, not to lose the O-ring, Definitely DO NOT lose this O-ring, the local dealer has it back ordered for 6-8 weeks!
I didn't end up needing one, but checked to see in case it needed to be replaced.
I emailed Jeff at BDX, according to him, the DD lite and axle should not require any machining. I'll still check to make sure it fits flush to the tunnel when I install to be sure
I didn't end up needing one, but checked to see in case it needed to be replaced.
I emailed Jeff at BDX, according to him, the DD lite and axle should not require any machining. I'll still check to make sure it fits flush to the tunnel when I install to be sure
Glad to help!
Have no idea how BDX would know that your axle does or does not fit into your tunnel without seeing your machine, or you measuring. How could they possibly claim your axle does not need machining, since every tunnel / axle combination is different? Due to poor tolerance control at the Arctic Cat factory. Some sleds (especially short-tracks and some mountain machines) have no misfit, my 2009 M8 was 0.045" and my 2011 HCR was 0.135" mis-fit. Some owners have reported up to 0.160" axle machining required to fit the axle and keep the axle from pushing into their DD.
From DD tear-down inspections, it seems a good 3203 bearing will handle 0.030" mis-fit or thereabouts long-term (for the useful life of the sled - 10,000 miles), and the original 6203 will handle about 0.010" mis-fit with little (very slow) bearing damage. I'm guessing the 5203 bearing will handle 0.020" axial thrust / spring pre-load from the tunnel. Beyond that, I recommend machining the drive axle. It's not that difficult to do, and who wants a blown DD out in the woods, in 6 feet of powder snow? Not me!
I have enough trouble with simple stuff, like locking the keys in my truck!
Best of luck!
I know the feeling Paul27 lol
I was wondering the same thing about how BDX could make that claim. My DD lite case fit the tunnel really tight, I couldn't push it together by hand, this was just due to tunnel/case clearance, not the axle, since it stopped like 1/2" out and I had to work it in from there. I read on this thread earlier on that the BDX DD design with only one snap ring holding the planetary in allowed for more play inside tolerances, if that makes sense?, didn't seem to have much slop when I put it together though, things fit pretty precisely. I've got my sled back together now, new wide bearing, I took the seal out of the wide bearing after reading your reply as well.
I'll check it again at the end of the season and see what everything looks like, oil, bearings ect.
I was wondering the same thing about how BDX could make that claim. My DD lite case fit the tunnel really tight, I couldn't push it together by hand, this was just due to tunnel/case clearance, not the axle, since it stopped like 1/2" out and I had to work it in from there. I read on this thread earlier on that the BDX DD design with only one snap ring holding the planetary in allowed for more play inside tolerances, if that makes sense?, didn't seem to have much slop when I put it together though, things fit pretty precisely. I've got my sled back together now, new wide bearing, I took the seal out of the wide bearing after reading your reply as well.
I'll check it again at the end of the season and see what everything looks like, oil, bearings ect.
Update on my unsealed 6203 bearing -
The oem sealed bearing was completely shot at 800 miles, bearing cages were apart and seals were popped out.
Replaced with a skf 6203 double sealed bearing. Checked it at 1980 miles. Seals were popped out and bearing cages were cracked in many places but still holding balls in place.
Replaced with a koyo 6203 and i removed the seals before installing. I had also heard it helps to make the spacer washer thinned so I ground a few thousanths off before installing. Approx 3400 miles now. I checked the bearing and it still looks good.
2010 m8 162
The oem sealed bearing was completely shot at 800 miles, bearing cages were apart and seals were popped out.
Replaced with a skf 6203 double sealed bearing. Checked it at 1980 miles. Seals were popped out and bearing cages were cracked in many places but still holding balls in place.
Replaced with a koyo 6203 and i removed the seals before installing. I had also heard it helps to make the spacer washer thinned so I ground a few thousanths off before installing. Approx 3400 miles now. I checked the bearing and it still looks good.
2010 m8 162
Another update. Pre-season bearing check found my Koyo 6203 unsealed bearing met its demise. It lasted approx 2000 miles.
So
OEM bearing cages came apart at 800 miles.
SKF 6203 double seal bearing cage was cracked at 1,980 miles.
Koyo 6203 unsealed bearing cage came apart approx 4,000 miles. (edit 11/27 - 3,850 actual miles - started it for the 1st time this season)
The Koyo 6203 open lasted approx 2,000 miles, so about 1,000 miles longer than the sealed SKF.
Easy to inspect and change so I will just replace it with another unsealed Koyo 6203 and replace it every 1,000 miles. I know, the 5203 is stronger but I don’t know if I would have to machine the driveshaft for the cover to fit properly. I have heard people have the gear shoulder machined back a little but it may cause slight mis-alignment of the gears.
I am trying to visualize how there would be mis-alignment if the 5203 has equal shaft protruding past the bearing like a 6203 does. ???
On edit - I forgot about the 4203 option. It is the same width as the 6203 w/spacer, 16mm. Harder to find in the U.S. but they can no doubt be bought. (edit 11/27 - the 4203 is only rated for light side loading)
Also, I want to say, this is the first time I have ever used the freezer method to install a bearing and WOW, I am a believer now! I froze the gearshaft and warmed the bearing on the range top and it dropped right on.
So
OEM bearing cages came apart at 800 miles.
SKF 6203 double seal bearing cage was cracked at 1,980 miles.
Koyo 6203 unsealed bearing cage came apart approx 4,000 miles. (edit 11/27 - 3,850 actual miles - started it for the 1st time this season)
The Koyo 6203 open lasted approx 2,000 miles, so about 1,000 miles longer than the sealed SKF.
Easy to inspect and change so I will just replace it with another unsealed Koyo 6203 and replace it every 1,000 miles. I know, the 5203 is stronger but I don’t know if I would have to machine the driveshaft for the cover to fit properly. I have heard people have the gear shoulder machined back a little but it may cause slight mis-alignment of the gears.
I am trying to visualize how there would be mis-alignment if the 5203 has equal shaft protruding past the bearing like a 6203 does. ???
On edit - I forgot about the 4203 option. It is the same width as the 6203 w/spacer, 16mm. Harder to find in the U.S. but they can no doubt be bought. (edit 11/27 - the 4203 is only rated for light side loading)
Also, I want to say, this is the first time I have ever used the freezer method to install a bearing and WOW, I am a believer now! I froze the gearshaft and warmed the bearing on the range top and it dropped right on.
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Topic #1 - Bearing Life Great to hear real, fact-based, bearing-life data using different seals in the same sled!
OEM bearing cage came apart at 800 miles (life 800 miles).
SKF 6203 double-seal bearing cage was cracked at 1,980 miles (life 1200 miles). My opinion: Swede SKF (50% longer life) is a better bearing than a China Peerless.
Koyo 6203 unsealed bearing cage came apart approx 4,000 miles (life 2000 miles, or about 800 miles longer than the sealed SKF). My opinion: Swede SKF and Japan Koyo are similar quality (best in the world), and the difference in life-span is due to: seal with mineral polyurea grease (runs hot) vs. open with synthetic oil (liquid cooling & higher lube film strength, runs cool).
Topic #2 - Gear Alignment
My understanding is no gear misalignment will occur, if the 3203/4203/5203 has the same amount of shaft protruding past the bearing, as the original 6203/spacer bushing combination.
OEM bearing cage came apart at 800 miles (life 800 miles).
SKF 6203 double-seal bearing cage was cracked at 1,980 miles (life 1200 miles). My opinion: Swede SKF (50% longer life) is a better bearing than a China Peerless.
Koyo 6203 unsealed bearing cage came apart approx 4,000 miles (life 2000 miles, or about 800 miles longer than the sealed SKF). My opinion: Swede SKF and Japan Koyo are similar quality (best in the world), and the difference in life-span is due to: seal with mineral polyurea grease (runs hot) vs. open with synthetic oil (liquid cooling & higher lube film strength, runs cool).
Topic #2 - Gear Alignment
My understanding is no gear misalignment will occur, if the 3203/4203/5203 has the same amount of shaft protruding past the bearing, as the original 6203/spacer bushing combination.
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2011 HCR Bearing Update:
DD history: Shredded a 6203 bearing at 300 miles. Previous owner installed a double-row 5203 sealed bearing, and it was loose Dec 2011 at 900 miles when I installed a new SKF 3203 with no seals and trimmed the DD drive shaft as discussed in another post (https://www.snowest.com/forum/threads/another-dd-bearing-failure-5203-this-time.310238/post-3067976).
Changed Amsoil chain case gear lube Dec 2012, Dec 2014, and again yesterday March 2020, with 1800 miles on the machine and 900 miles on the 3203 DD bearing. The drained gear lube looked A-OK, totally clean, clear, looked like new oil. On the drain plug magnet, there was a very small amount of black smudge (no flakes or specks). The micro-iron particles on the magnet looked and felt like black grease.
Posting FYI to M8 owners. Ride fun! Ride safe!
DD history: Shredded a 6203 bearing at 300 miles. Previous owner installed a double-row 5203 sealed bearing, and it was loose Dec 2011 at 900 miles when I installed a new SKF 3203 with no seals and trimmed the DD drive shaft as discussed in another post (https://www.snowest.com/forum/threads/another-dd-bearing-failure-5203-this-time.310238/post-3067976).
Changed Amsoil chain case gear lube Dec 2012, Dec 2014, and again yesterday March 2020, with 1800 miles on the machine and 900 miles on the 3203 DD bearing. The drained gear lube looked A-OK, totally clean, clear, looked like new oil. On the drain plug magnet, there was a very small amount of black smudge (no flakes or specks). The micro-iron particles on the magnet looked and felt like black grease.
Posting FYI to M8 owners. Ride fun! Ride safe!
Update on unsealed 6203 theory. Prob doesn’t matter whether sealed or not.
800 miles oem bearing failed
1,180 miles later, the skf 6203 sealed failed
1,870 miles later, the koyo 6203 unsealed failed
750 miles later, the koyo unsealed failed
Debating on a 5203 sealed. It is 17.5mm wide. My 6203 is 12mm and the spacer is 4mm. I ground down the spacer some a number of years ago but not much. correction on edit - 17.5mm wide.
800 miles oem bearing failed
1,180 miles later, the skf 6203 sealed failed
1,870 miles later, the koyo 6203 unsealed failed
750 miles later, the koyo unsealed failed
Debating on a 5203 sealed. It is 17.5mm wide. My 6203 is 12mm and the spacer is 4mm. I ground down the spacer some a number of years ago but not much. correction on edit - 17.5mm wide.
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I believe the best bearing is a 3203, an internally-upgraded, better metallurgy, more precise than 5203, with same ID, OD, Width dimensions. Both are 17.5 mm wide. Attached are some SKF data. This is what I posted April 2013:
For a M8, I believe the 3203 bearing is best, in "A" style (no grease grooves), "TN9" polyamide (nylon) cage, with "C3" added clearance (0.0003") to handle press fit. Definitely don't use "C2" tight fit. Normal fit (no C designation) is OK. C3 is better. Recommend without rubber seals (not "2RS1"), and without steel shields (not "2Z"). The "SKF Explorer" brand and version are my favorite. Total bearing name & number is: SKF 3203 ATN9/C3. Search "SKF 3203" on eBay and several are for sale, but only a few are C3. Get a new one, sealed in plastic wrap. Your local industrial bearing supply store should have several on their shelf. FAG, NSK, Koyo and NTN are also very good bearing brands. I don't use Chinese bearings (BDX, Peer) due to poor quality and too many fakes from that country. 5203 type is an old style, with the same dimensions, but less quality. 4203 type is less common, used more in England, and has a thinner width dimension, with less axial load capacity.
Rotation speed (12,000 rpm) is way too fast for grease lube. Also gets better cooling with no seals and splash / spray / mist from DD syn-lube oil.
May benefit from a drive shaft trim, as detailed in previous posts.
For a M8, I believe the 3203 bearing is best, in "A" style (no grease grooves), "TN9" polyamide (nylon) cage, with "C3" added clearance (0.0003") to handle press fit. Definitely don't use "C2" tight fit. Normal fit (no C designation) is OK. C3 is better. Recommend without rubber seals (not "2RS1"), and without steel shields (not "2Z"). The "SKF Explorer" brand and version are my favorite. Total bearing name & number is: SKF 3203 ATN9/C3. Search "SKF 3203" on eBay and several are for sale, but only a few are C3. Get a new one, sealed in plastic wrap. Your local industrial bearing supply store should have several on their shelf. FAG, NSK, Koyo and NTN are also very good bearing brands. I don't use Chinese bearings (BDX, Peer) due to poor quality and too many fakes from that country. 5203 type is an old style, with the same dimensions, but less quality. 4203 type is less common, used more in England, and has a thinner width dimension, with less axial load capacity.
Rotation speed (12,000 rpm) is way too fast for grease lube. Also gets better cooling with no seals and splash / spray / mist from DD syn-lube oil.
May benefit from a drive shaft trim, as detailed in previous posts.
Paul, I made a few phone calls and both the 3203 and 5203 would have to be ordered. Not a big deal, but I decided since I already had a 6203 in my supply I may as well use that and just plan to change it every 500 miles, or approx every 2 years. The 3203 and 5203 are $50-60ea while the 6203 is $8. I figure I would be pulling the cover off every few years regardless so may as well just keep replacing my 6203. I may search around to see if there is a 6203 with a nylon cage so at least if the cage fails there is not metal being ground up in the gears. Those must be some tough gears because after eating a few cages there is no damage.
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