2009-2011 Diamond Drive Bearing Failure

[mhanson]

i think the side loads are the whole dd problem. Everyone needs to inspect this when working on these. It is common sense to figure out if you are having a binding problem. When you go to bolt the dd assembly into the tunnel, and tighten the nuts, it should not pull the tunnel out to the dd case. it should tighten the case to the tunnel.(or real close tolerance). i would assemble this without the track in place to figure out how much to shim or machine out. the whole thing should turn freely with no resistance. i would definetaly put that wide brg in while you are at this, it should fit just fine in any dd it is the narrow tunnel that is giving the clearance problems. it pushes the ring gear into the dd case to far that is why you don't have the room for the wide brg.

You can also pull the planetary gearset out and look on the backside to see how badly the ring gear has been rubbing on it. when my dd first grenaded there was a deep grove from the ring gear. ever since my shim work the ring gear hasn't made a mark in the planetary holder.

this of course is for the 09-10 models, not sure about older never had them apart.

 

[bgreen776]

Everyone needs to inspect this when working on these. It is common sense to figure out if you are having a binding problem. When you go to bolt the dd assembly into the tunnel, and tighten the nuts, it should not pull the tunnel out to the dd case. it should tighten the case to the tunnel.(or real close tolerance).

It should do neither. The diamond drive should sit flat against the tunnel, with no rubber bumper on the front, and no nuts holding it down, no matter what. If you are pulling it down, or pulling the tunnel up, your loading the wrong bearing. You need to be able to install the dd on your tunnel, then pull the drive shaft onto the dd output shaft slightly. This will load a MUCH bigger and WAY stronger bearing inside the dd. (the one on the back of the ring gear)

i would definetaly put that wide brg in while you are at this, it should fit just fine in any dd it is the narrow tunnel that is giving the clearance problems. it pushes the ring gear into the dd case to far that is why you don't have the room for the wide brg.

There are many different configurations of d.d. assemblys out there, and some of them require machine work on the transfer gear to use the 5203 bearing. This has nothing to do with a narrow tunnel, its a completely seperate issue having everythign to do with manufacturing differences from one case to the next. Maybe cat could tell us why there is a difference, but I cant. I do know that some people say they didn't have do do any machine work to get the cover to fit after installing the double row 5203 bearing, and some did. I did, my old man did, several of the guys we ride with did, and some of the guys posting in this thread did IIRC.

 

[mhanson]

bgreen, i agree for the most part.

but are you guys putting the dd together on the bench? i have a feeling most of the people are trying to do it in the sled. a "narrow" tunnel will push that ring gear out towards the cover just enough to make it too tight for the cover to fit properly. I have been around quite a few 09-10 that the brg worked just fine, mine was the only one we had to get creative with( spacing the brake rotor over rather than cutting the trackshaft), but when on the bench the brg fit just fine because you can push the ring gear all the way into the bearing that is behind it.

Like i said in my earlier post, this is for 09-10's only, have never messed with an older version.

 

[bgreen776]

On the bench. But even if it was in the chassis, there should be no pressure on the ring gear. Like you said, if there is, you have a narrow tunnel or some other problem. And I'm like you, I don't trust most people to realize that their cover is .010" away from being flush. Its too easy to have it cocked or something else that prevents them from realizing that its not a good fit. I've actually measured everything out with precision tools and verified that the 5203 bearing/transfer gear assembly wouldn't fit in the case without bowing the cover. (other cases might/will be different) Also, some covers are slightly out of "spec" right from the factory, with the original 6203 bearing.

 

[RickM]

5203 Wide Bearing vers 4203 wide bearing

Just a little information for some of the people that are finding their tunnels a little narrow and thinking of having to machine the track shaft to get the needed clearance if the DD cover doesnt fit tight against the case as mentioned in this post on the 2009 Diamond Drive.

The 5203-2RS double row bearing that we have been installing is 17.5 mm wide.
The 4203-2RS double row bearing is 16.0 mm wide, this is exactly the same width as the stock spacer and 6203 bearing was from the mfg.

The bad news is the 4203 is some what hard to find. BUT Heres a number
where you can call the bearing distributor.

Consolidated Bearing 877-266-2744 they will tell you where the closest brg. dealer is to your location. When I talked to them today they had 20 in stock,

Using the 4203 may just save some headache for some people that find a narrow tunnel and save doing machine work. Hope this helps. RickM

 

[bgreen776]

If your cover doesnt mate up, don't just throw a narrow bearing in there and think you've got your bases covered. You need to go through the checks mentioned in the mega thread to make sure your doing the right thing. If your case is out of the sled and you cant get your cover to go on tight after you install the 5203 bearing, without pulling it down with the cover bolts, you should either machine the transfer gear, or install the narrower 4203 bearing. (good find on that!) But if your case isn't flush with the tunnel when its unbolted, then you need to do something completely different to correct that problem.

 

[bgreen776]

Just a little information for some of the people that are finding their tunnels a little narrow and thinking of having to machine the track shaft to get the needed clearance if the DD cover doesnt fit tight against the case as mentioned in this post on the 2009 Diamond Drive.

The 5203-2RS double row bearing that we have been installing is 17.5 mm wide.
The 4203-2RS double row bearing is 16.0 mm wide, this is exactly the same width as the stock spacer and 6203 bearing was from the mfg.

The bad news is the 4203 is some what hard to find. BUT Heres a number
where you can call the bearing distributor.

Consolidated Bearing 877-266-2744 they will tell you where the closest brg. dealer is to your location. When I talked to them today they had 20 in stock,

Using the 4203 may just save some headache for some people that find a narrow tunnel and save doing machine work. Hope this helps. RickM

I've seen two different thickness spacers on 09 spacers, and a third on the 10. Has anyone else seen this?

 

[RickM]

bgreen776

Maybe I didnt explain what i was getting at. I was referring to the DD bolted into the sled and people stating that they couldnt get the cover to bolt up with out forcing it due to a small gag, which would indicate that the 5203 was a bit wider and thus needing to machine the track shaft aprox. 1.5 mm.
Thats all i was trying toget across. If the DD is on the bench and cover wont fit properly, then you have to go plan "B" and figure out why, because it wont be just the bearing. Rickm

 

[Woody67]

I've seen two different thickness spacers on 09 spacers, and a third on the 10. Has anyone else seen this?

I have not read all the posts in the mega thread so I hope I am not repeating information. I have not had 09 and 10s apart side by side. But I have cross referenced the parts in the gearcase. According to Arctic Cat's records the gearcase and internal parts are the same between 09 and 10. The bearing in question is a new number for 2010 and many of the 800 catalogs show new parts because of the gearing change. However if you look at a 2009 and 2010 M1000 they use the same part numbers for all parts we are talking about except the bearing itself. So what I am saying is the numbers are the same for the spacer, transfer gear, planetary assy, and ring gear.

I tested a gear change at 200 miles on my 2010 HCR and the bearing was coming apart. I tried to put the 5203 bearing in with the case on the bench...no way was it going to be right. We measured the difference in width between the old bearing and spacer and the new one and machined the transfer gear accordingly. Case closed nicely and have not had it open sincce

As I said in the beginning of my reply I have not had the two years side by side but Cat numbers say they are the same but I have read many replies saying the spacers are different.

 

[bgreen776]

Maybe I didnt explain what i was getting at. I was referring to the DD bolted into the sled and people stating that they couldnt get the cover to bolt up with out forcing it due to a small gag, which would indicate that the 5203 was a bit wider and thus needing to machine the track shaft aprox. 1.5 mm.
Thats all i was trying toget across. If the DD is on the bench and cover wont fit properly, then you have to go plan "B" and figure out why, because it wont be just the bearing. Rickm

IMO, if you cant get the cover to go on when the case is in the sled, you need to do something outside the dd case to fix it. There should be no change between case out of the sled and/or case installed. If there is, I would start looking at machining the shaft, spacing the brake housing out, or something like that. When you bolt the trackshaft onto the dd output shaft/ring gear, it should actually pull the tunnel in just a hair. Doing this will put the load on the heavy bearings under the brake housing, and the biggest bearing inside the dd case (the one on the ring gear).

 

[bgreen776]

I have not read all the posts in the mega thread so I hope I am not repeating information. I have not had 09 and 10s apart side by side. But I have cross referenced the parts in the gearcase. According to Arctic Cat's records the gearcase and internal parts are the same between 09 and 10. The bearing in question is a new number for 2010 and many of the 800 catalogs show new parts because of the gearing change. However if you look at a 2009 and 2010 M1000 they use the same part numbers for all parts we are talking about except the bearing itself. So what I am saying is the numbers are the same for the spacer, transfer gear, planetary assy, and ring gear.

I tested a gear change at 200 miles on my 2010 HCR and the bearing was coming apart. I tried to put the 5203 bearing in with the case on the bench...no way was it going to be right. We measured the difference in width between the old bearing and spacer and the new one and machined the transfer gear accordingly. Case closed nicely and have not had it open sincce

As I said in the beginning of my reply I have not had the two years side by side but Cat numbers say they are the same but I have read many replies saying the spacers are different.

Cat lists the 09 HCR center shock as one part number and the 10 M8 center shock as another, but when you compare the part numbers on all the pieces that make an assembly they are all exactly the same. Even the oil.


Cat also has a .020" thinner shim (thinner than what?) that they offer to dealers that bring this issue in for warranty, I wonder if some of these get mixed in once in a while and thats the difference we see from one sled to the next?

 

[meight]

With only 700 Km on my 2009 M8 SP i decided to change the gearing in my machine,and sure enough the bearing in question was in early stages of failure.The bearing cage was broken up and starting to push the rubber seal out,and to think i baby this machine and it was doomed to fail sooner or later

 

[killerrf]

took second bearing out at 700 miles. pulled the first one at around 370 miles. i put the same small bearing in the second time cause its all i could get and wanted to ride. but this one it screwed already. have the 5203 coming today so hopefully it will fit without machining or spacing.

 

[Elevation]

bearing failure

Thanks everyone for the good information here! I have 2009 M1000 832 miles I thought I could hear some noise at times so I took the Diamond drive apart and this is what I found.

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[silverram323]

Good thing you took a look, looks like you caught it just in time.

 

[CO 2.0]

Just a little information for some of the people that are finding their tunnels a little narrow and thinking of having to machine the track shaft to get the needed clearance if the DD cover doesnt fit tight against the case as mentioned in this post on the 2009 Diamond Drive.

The 5203-2RS double row bearing that we have been installing is 17.5 mm wide.
The 4203-2RS double row bearing is 16.0 mm wide, this is exactly the same width as the stock spacer and 6203 bearing was from the mfg.

The bad news is the 4203 is some what hard to find. BUT Heres a number
where you can call the bearing distributor.

Consolidated Bearing 877-266-2744 they will tell you where the closest brg. dealer is to your location. When I talked to them today they had 20 in stock,

Using the 4203 may just save some headache for some people that find a narrow tunnel and save doing machine work. Hope this helps. RickM

Rick, I emailed Consolidated today and they told me that their 4203 bearings are not angular contact bearings, only their 5203's are. I searched all over the web for 4203-2RS Double Row sealed deep groove angular contact bearings and came up short...can only find websites for mass distribution of them. I emailed PT&Bearings in the UK to see what they could do for me for a shipment of 10 or smaller.

Does anyone have any of the 4203's they would be willing to sell me?
I took apart my DD today after running the 4203 for 500 miles and it's already very rough, so I want to replace it again while everything is apart.

 

[RickM]

CO 2.0

I called Consolidated Bearing and they gave me the nearest stocking dealer in my area. You will have to order from a stocking dealer. Consolidated told me that they had them in stock, so my local dealer called just minutes after I talked to consoldated. I had the bearing with in 5 days.
Im looking at the bearing now and it is 4203-2RS. Same as 5203 just narrower. There was a guy that had some in stock here, scroll back and read the posts, because he mentioned that he would sell some, it may be several pages back, just have to take time and read. Hope this helps. if not send me a PM. Rickm

call consolidated on the phone, talk to a live person, you get better results. rickm

 

[bgreen776]

Same, and in EXACTLY the same? (Double row, angular contact, with the same load ratings?)

 

[skidooboy]

i know i cant read the rest of this without upgrading to the premium membership but, i thought i would try to post an update on our 2 09 m8's with the wider bearing update, to give everyone a heads up who is interrested.

we have 2, 09 m8 153 sno pro's approx 900 miles on each. from day one i had the new bearings in both (never ran the oem stocker). tonight i dropped the dd oil, and ran the flush through both sleds, pulled the covers for a look-see, and to replace the oil.

EVERYTHING LOOKED LIKE NEW. no brass, no steel, no bearing peices, the new wide double row bearing still has the seals, and is solid as the day i installed them.

one of the biggest pieces of mind i did since buying the sleds was install the double row bearing. and after pulling the covers tonight, i am a believer.

THANKS RICKM FOR BRINGING THIS TO ALL OF OUR ATTENTION!!!! very unselfish of you to do this, you have probably saved cat, their dealers and a few out of warrantee guys ALOT OF CASH!!!

kinda sad in the garage tonight. this means no more riding till december oh well, i still get to start them a few times a month to get my 2 stroke fix.

thanks again to all that helped on this. ski

 

[allied1]

Is Cat going to use that $1.42 POS bearing in the 2011's or are they going to LISTEN to their customers for a change? Cat is really starting to piss me off with the corner cutting cost saving not listening BS!!!