09 800 No oil to Mag side only - Anyone seen this issue

[EricW]

Had this happen on an 09 800 that has update 1000 miles ago. Sled has run flawless until the day of siezure. Warmed it at the lot and went about 5 miles or so up the trail when compression was lost. The coolant temp was high 120's and the egt's were normal.

Towed it out and found out after tear down that the mag side piston was getting no oil. Atleast thats what I think. The scuff wasn't 4 corner like a typical cold sieze and the underside of the piston and the wrist pin bearing were bone dry.

The oil lines both upper and lower on the mag side looked fine and were charged. There was a 1.5" air bubble just below the filter at the tank. I know the dealer bled the system at update and that bubble wasn't there then. This sled gets put on the lift every 2 or 3 rides and gone over. Hadn't noticed anything strange. While the air bubble at the filter is concerning, I don't see how that could impact the mag side only.

Anyone seen a side specific failure on an 800 cfi oil pump? Maybe plugged ports. I have never seen one of these oil pumps apart so I'm not sure what could have caused this.

New pump, lines, and parts will go in then I guess I'll just premix and also watch the injection consumption to see if everything is normal. Any other ideas or suggestions? Thanks in advance. EW

 

[Adobe-Al]

I had a oil cap that was not venting and it did the samething.

 

[jim9006]

Whoa, if those came out looking that dry I’d split the cases cause I’d bet the mains and rod are close to being gone as well. Other suggestions to check are plugged oil journals, pump issues and air leaks. Just out of curiosity what do the cylinders look like?

 

[skibreeze]

When my 800 went down the first time, I also thought it was no oil. It was simply the fact that it got so hot from being lean that it looked like no oil was there. the wrist pin bearing was dry/sticky. I can't find a pic, but I'll get one, I still have the piston.

 

[EricW]

Al, You had a failed cap that squeeked just one side?? Were the lines from the pump to the 5 injection points all charged with oil? Mine were all charged with oil and no bubbles on the pump output lines. Just want to make sure I am hearing you right. The PTO side had normal piston wash and looked great.

Jim, The Mag (damaged) side of the cylinder had one scuff that would be bad enough to trash it. The rest looked normal for the way the piston looked, similar smears. I have been wondering about the bottom end as well.

Ski, I know that the lean mid-range is the obvious issue with these, but we do watch EGT's like a hawk and understand how and when the issue comes on. The sled has around 1500 miles on it with no issues since fuel mamagement and being able to see EGT's. Could a lean fuel condition leave the underside of the piston looking that dry and also not do any more damage to the dome that what is there? I have always been told that lean conditions tend to prey more on the exhaust side as well. Just trying to fit all the unknowns and pieces together.

No problem getting it back together, I just don't like still having an unknown gremlin that could surface given the remote areas we get into most of the time. I hate not feeling that these sleds are dependable. This is especially true given the lengths that we go above and beyond to educate ourselves and take measures to ensure that they are. Ha....why am I telling you this. lol. Thanks all for the input so far. EW

edit: Just saw your pics, Hmmmm, back to the thinking board. Thanks man.

 

[skibreeze]

Eric, is the other side absolutely perfect? If so, I'd start looking to fuel injectors as well.

 

[EricW]

Eric, is the other side absolutely perfect? If so, I'd start looking to fuel injectors as well.

Yikes....I'm on it. Thanks again. Did you have a bad injector, wiring supply, o-ring, nozzle or was it a programming thing to that injector?

I have heard talk in the past of a way to ohm test an injector to cover the pulse part, any suggestions? Appreciate it. Headed to the shop. EW

 

[skibreeze]

I never had an injector issue that I'm convinced was an injector issue. However, when dealer did the update, they replaced one due to the tip being bent a little. Mine seemed to be fine after the PCV. 1400 miles with constant issues and then 600 trouble free miles until I bent the crank. Pistons are still GTG.

 

[skibreeze]

Almost forgot! When I pulled out the motor, I saw that the throttle body boot was tearing, so, have you looked at that?

 

[mountainhorse]

HMMM...

Need to narrow it down to a fuel or a lube problem.

The brass check valves/elbows (#1 in this pic below) could be blocked or stuck...Though I've only seen that personally on one motor.

The injectors could cause a problem as 'breeze pointed out.

There are some good Injection houses nearby that can do a flow check on the injuectors for you and clean them at the same time.

 

[diamonddave]

Eric, you've gotten some good things to check but don't discount the oil cap. These things (oil caps) as they sit in the shop DO NOT VENT given the angle that the cap sits on the tank when the attitude of the sled is zero degrees. Play around with your cap and check and see WHEN the vent opens and when it closes and at what attitudes the cap is and when. There is a very limited opening in relation to the attitude of the cap and the corresponding opening of the vent. I think you'll be as shocked as I was. I've checked 6 RAW's now and they all behave the same way. 07's through 09's.

I have continually bleed my oil pump (3 times now) ONLY to watch the air bubble usually 1-1.5 inches long return after a few hundred or so miles. I put up a thread with pics on this issue last spring. The mag side oil lines from the oil pump to the cylinder had air in them also. This sled only had about 150-200 miles at the time of finding this. I've always added an ounce of oil to every gallon of gas since the sled was new, hence the reason I feel I've not had a failure yet.

As for the reason why it might only affect one cylinder and not the other...I have a couple theories on that one as well. Have you ever seen a diesel motor run out of fuel for whatever reason? I have seen many and when I've had to bleed the injectors, I've never seen every single injector have air. Call me carzy but I believe these things happen due to the path of least resistive concept. I've taken many 2 stroke motors apart that had run out of oil and have seen the damage differ between cylinders.

I know MH disagress with me on this cap issue, but given my background, I feel this cap/vent needs attention and is something that should be investigated by all RAW owners.

Here's the thread I put together.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216099

 

[Adobe-Al]

Al, You had a failed cap that squeeked just one side?? Were the lines from the pump to the 5 injection points all charged with oil? Mine were all charged with oil and no bubbles on the pump output lines. Just want to make sure I am hearing you right. The PTO side had normal piston wash and looked great.


I'm about 90%(cap failure) sure it was the cause of my failure on my wifes 09 700 RMK. When I looked at the oil line after the filter it was empty for about 2 inches. When I disconnected it, I could hear air being sucked back towards the oil tank. No-oil came out of the line until I crack open the cap. The injection lines after the pump had oil in them. But I think they had limited oil due to the vaccum created in the tank. My PTO side still had great compression, but did have some scuffing.

 

[mountainhorse]

Super Dave3... any thoughts??

D.Dave.. I believe your oil cap presentation... so there is no disagreement... There are probably some defective caps out there... Try the SD Summit cap on there... I've never had a problem with that cap leaking or causing vent problems... they fit each other

As far as the air bubble... how many times do you have your sled on edge doing U turns or upside down or roll it to get it unstuck... any of those have the motor running?... If you are at the end of the day and have low gas and less than full oil... and tip it up... the line will suck the air that is already in the bottle... that air bubble does not necessarily block the flow of oil (how many sleds out there have the bubble and run without issues)... The meniscus of oil that flows around the bubble supplies the needed flow in most situations... That bubble is most dangerous if it moves down the hose and causes air-lock in the pump... If the bubble does not move towards the pump... the pump is still getting enough oil around the bubble to supply the motor.

Am I comfortable with the bubble there... NO...I usually remove the bubble whenever possible by using an oil-zorb pad and disconnecting at the filter and walking the bubble out... then reconnecting it.

Dave/Skibreeze.... what are your thoughts on the vent in the bottle cap being plugged and only taking out only the ONE cylinder?

 

[skibreeze]

I'd be really suprised to have a vent clogged, I can't see something getting past the filter, thru the pump and clogging it. If the other piston is perfect, my money would be on it running too lean from a clogged/faulty injector or a torn boot. The other possibility is a large bubble in the oil line, but I'd think that would be unlikely after the pump if it only affected the one side.

 

[diamonddave]

Dave/Skibreeze.... what are your thoughts on the vent being plugged and only taking out ONE cylinder?

Re-read my third paragraph in my previous post. I'm not saying the vent is plugging. I'm saying that it is closed off way too often and not opened enough and that this is what is creating issues. The word plugging sounds to me like a foreign debris caused issue.


As for the one cylinder only issue...I don't have an exact answer at this time other than the path of least resistance, but like I've stated in my previous post, I have seen doo motors doo this when they were run out of oil.



But....Is there something about the length of the oil lines between the mag side and PTO side? IDK....Does it have to do with the inequality's of the location of the outboard oil lines in relation to the oil pump? IDK... Meaning when oil flow gets cut down, doo certain lines run out first? I'll bet money that happens, see it the tranny world all the time. Would it matter if we changed the outboard location of the oil lines from the oil pump as the enter the motor, swapping sides? Maybe, maybe not. I will look into this the next time I R&R a CFI.


WHAT I DOO KNOW is that in all the RAW's I've worked on that I've seen this on, ALL sleds (only 6) had air on Mag side oil injector lines. And they can be very, very difficult to see after a sled has a few miles on them and the oil has created a kind of 'stained' for lack of a better word, to the clear tubing of the oil line.



Again if you guys don't believe me, PLEASE check the pics very closely again in my oil cap thread and you will see that it is the mag side oil lines with the air bubbles. I wish I had now taken pictures of all the affected sleds. Maybe that would make point hit home a little more.

M-HD.Dave.. I believe your oil cap presentation... so there is no disagreement... There are probably some defective caps out there... Try the SD Summit cap on there... I've never had a problem with that cap leaking or causing vent problems... they fit each other

I should have made my disagreement statement a little more clearer. When you and I talked about it in the past, you felt that the vent in the oil cap didn't have to vent as "often" as I did. I apoligize for the statement being as vague.

I honestly believe this is why we are seeing this air bubble continuing to return directly below the oil filter. I believe the vacuum of the tank and lines are being disrupted from the vent in the cap not venting as often as it should.

Skibreeze
I'd be really suprised to have a vent clogged, I can't see something getting past the filter, thru the pump and clogging it. If the other piston is perfect, my money would be on it running too lean from a clogged/faulty injector or a torn boot. The other possibility is a large bubble in the oil line, but I'd think that would be unlikely after the pump if it only affected the one side.

Ski, I'm not saying the vent in the cap is clogging, I'm saying that it is not opened near enough in relation to the attitude that it is in. The vent in the oil cap is designed to close off so when the machine is rolled or in an "adverse attitude" that injection oil does not spill all over the motor compartment.

The problem is, I feel, that it is closed WAY to often.

 

[skibreeze]

I wasn't referring to the oil cap, I thought that MH was talking about the fitting in the block where the oil comes out.

 

[rmkboxer]

can you get to the oil pump and pull them off these motors and run them with a drill motor? If you can do that and see if it is pumping, I have taken apart a motor that had a oil cap issue and it hits both cylinders. and if you pull the line off of the oil pump it will not run out until you loosen the cap as long as you have not pulled the cap yet. I would pull the motor and split the cases and if these are like the bb 800's I would drill the case so you can premix to be safe. a lean condition will do the same thing. I like this thread. careful with the fuel injector testing and rebuilding places. the shop I work at has been burned by having injectors checked or rebuilt. if there is any question replace it with a new one. I would check your intake boot also they were tearing on the 08's

 

[rmkboxer]

is it just me or does anyone else see a hint of detonation. could also be bad gas

 

[diamonddave]

can you get to the oil pump and pull them off these motors and run them with a drill motor?

Not in these sleds. However, I just go ahead and pull a motor on a CFI 4 when dooing top end work anyway. They're pretty easy and I've heard about "bent" injector tips.

I should've also agreed with you guys earlier, I'd definately be having the injectors cleaned and flow tested. We ran into this with the SDI Doo's frequently which is identical to this CFI arrangement. 2 stroke injectors fire twice as often as a 4 stroke so at 8,000 R's the Polaris CFI's are firing 16,000 R's.

Speaking of injector service, what makes are having issues....

 

[skibreeze]

I'm pretty sure that your math is incorrect.