ask the polaris engineers 2004 models

SHOULD I WAIT UNTIL 2005 TO BUY?
POLARISPHIL
FROM INFORMATION THAT I GATHERED, POLARIS IS SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY IN THE 2005 LINEUP. WHY BUY A 2004?
Polaris_Industries
While we can't comment on future product, we can tell you the 2004 model lineup is brimming with improvements and added value unlike never before. The Phantom brake is now standard on nearly all our models which delivers maximum stopping power with minimal lever effort; TEAM Roller secondary clutches are also found on most models - this system delivers accurate and quick up and back shift characteristics; our electronic reverse control feature or PERC is also standard on nearly every model for 2004. This system adds all the benefits of reverse with no weight penalty or added complexity; DET sensors are standard on all 700 and 800 Liberty engines; plus we now offer broad ergonomic enhancements with the PRO X2 and expansion of the EDGE chassis into other model segments. Perhaps more important is our commitment to industry leading quality. We are committed to delivering the best riding, most dependable snowmobiles in the industry… period. This means we will not release any snowmobile until it meets those standards. Our 2004 line-up represents the best snowmobile line-up we have ever offered.

PRO X2 Calibration
xcrtoyworx
Can you comment on the calibration of the suspension of the new ''04 PRO X2 as compared to the current ''03 PROX model. Softer, stiffer, about the same, etc...
Thanks.
dhacker
Great question. It is very confusing as a consuming to understand the new sleds suspension relative to the stiffness. Snow Cross configuration is obviously different vs. a trail suspension. How is this suspension going to work or feel for trail riding? Particularily in all kinds of conditions: groomed, rough, ditch banging. etc?
Are we as consumers going to be required to revalve the shocks because the suspension is set for snow cross and not trail riding?
Thanks.
Polaris_Industries
Ooops sorry guys... we missed this one. While we are still working on final calibrations for many of our 2004 models, the X2 for 2004 will be calibrated slightly softer than 2003 PRO X models. We received feedback from many riders who sought to soften the calibrations of the 2003 PRO X models. These shocks also feature easy to adjust compression clickers on all four corners, allowing for additional adjustments. You should also note the X2 will be outfitted with Walker Evans shocks which are a truly premium shock and deliver outstanding performance. I think you'll be very pleased with the performance and calibrations of this suspension, especially if you like to push the performance edge on the trails. However, if you are looking to rack up big miles on the trail for day long jaunts, the calibrations and ergonomics of an XC SP or Classic will better suit your needs. Add an M-10 with ACE, and this is the ideal set-up for a serious trail rider who is all about riding all day and racking up serious miles and is willing to do it again the following day!

TRIPLES...WE LOVE THEM!!
POLARISPHIL
THIS PAST YEAR, I RODE A 01 700 XC. THE SLED WAS FAST AND FUN. I TRIED MY BROTHERS 2000 XCR TRIPLE AT OLD FORGE ONE WEEKEND AND WOW!!
SMOOTH,SMOOTH, SMOOTH. NOW SHAKE RATTLE AND ROLL LIKE THE TWINS. EVEN IN GEN 2 CHASSIS, SLED WAS A GREAT TRAIL RIDE. IF HTG CAN DO IT YOU GUYS CAN!!!! IN THE EDGE CHASSIS!!!
ditchbanger
Also, by the looks of the older airboxes, there seemed to be plenty of room for that third carburator. Perhaps plans for the future were scrapped...
ditchbanger
Excuse me. Older airboxes in the Edge chassis that is.
Polaris_Industries
While there remains a dedicated core of triple engine lovers, the current state of the industry simply cannot support an engine platform with such a very limited sales base. Current customer surveys clearly indicate torque, handling and light-weight are high atop the want list, while top speed ranks in the bottom third of consumer desires. As for the 800 XR, I'm not sure where you got your survey numbers, however, this is a shared engine and chassis platform with other models in our mix, thus making the overall build numbers more palatable.

04 800 Engine performance
shylock44
I have a 02xcsp800 that has been giving me problems all along by burning down. Is the detnoation control that are the 04`''s the primary answer from Polaris and will this control fix the problem?? Also do you feel there is going to a loss of performance from the 02-03 to the 04''s?I have spring ordered a 04 Pro X 800 so I hope your answer is to the positive. According to Dyno reports from AmAsnow the 02 800''s had aprox 140 hp and the 03''s were much less at 121 or something like that. Thanks in advance
Polaris_Industries
DET will help prevent the problem of detonation due to poor fuel, incorrect engine timing, incorrect main jets or fluctuating temperatures. However, it will not guarantee an engine will never fail, but, your chances are far, far less with this system.
As a side note, model year 700/800 XC's and PRO X's have had a performance bulletin issued to all dealers to remap the CDI timing curve and follow select jetting recommendations. Most customers have been very satisfied with this change. We will continue to research and develop more improvements in performance so the MY04's will meet your satisfaction and once again dominate Old Forge!
Ironically, this situation partially was discovered during this past year's Old Forge Shoot Out and was illustrated in our performance and horsepower reading in comparison to the 2002 model year. In addition, during the 2002 Shoot Out, ambient air temperatures hovered in the upper 40's and all manufactures were allowed to rejet to their charts for out-of-the-box set ups as well as dealer prep. This winter, temperatures were again warm, (mid 30's) yet no OEM's could adjust jetting for out-of-the-box set-up. Polaris jetting specs for each production sled fall within the range of 10'F to -10'F to assure reliable engines at what we feel are normal winter temperatures. We do this do account for a variety of fuels used, riding styles, and cooling conditions a sled can be subjected to. As a result of these rich jetting conditions and forthcoming performance bulleting upgrade, our Old Forge Performance was dramatically affected.

What's in PERC add-on kits for '03/04
ExcursionPSD
What do PERC kits (p. 87 of brochure) for ''03 XC SP or ''03 PRO X have in them?
I expect a new CDI box and wiring harness, but do they have a Team two roller secondary clutch in all of them, or do the PRO X versions have just the helix?
Also, how does the left handlebar control switch assembly (with PERC switch) deal with the variation that some XC SP's also may have need for an M-10 ACE soft/firm switch?
Polaris_Industries
The PERC reverse kit for select '02 and '03 models will contain a new CDI box, TEAM roller secondary and in some situations a new oil pump. You are correct in regards to the PRO X models, which will only need a new helix instead of an entire TEAM roller secondary assembly in addition to the new CDI box.
hesse
can i add it to my 02 rmk 700?
Polaris_Industries
Yes, kits will be made available for most 2002 and 2003 models with Liberty engines.

Cooling system
jim
What is parallel cooling?
Polaris_Industries
Parallel cooling describes the way in which fluid is routed in liquid cooled 2004 models. As the name implies, two separate cooling loops - one from the engine to the front exchanger and back to the engine flows coolant in unison with a "parallel loop"- from the engine through the linear transfer channels, through the rear crossover exchanger to the center exchanger and back to the engine. The end result is the elimination of a small amount of coolant which in previous designs was continually routed in a short circuit through the engine. As a result, the parallel cooling system delivers improved flow, up to 25% reduction in operating temperatures, improved efficiency and a reduction in wet weight.
ExcursionPSD
This is done by having coolant flowing thru the front or bulkhead heat exchanger ALL the time.
In addition, if you look closely at the hoses near the thermostat, you will see that they are no longer small bypass hoses. They are larger diameter hoses that work in conjunction with a non-bypass thermostat to flow coolant to the liquid cooled brakes and then on to the tunnel or running board mounted heat exchanger and thru the rear crossover exchanger (rear crossover in pretty much everything except big-block with Edge 121'' rear) and back to the engine when the thermostat is open.

Thank You for Your Questions
Polaris_Industries
Thanks to all who participated in this Ask the Engineers forum. While we may have not been able to answer all your questions fully, we hope we were able to help out where we could. Thanks again and lets think snow for 2003-'04.

M10 121" backrest, cargo carriers
ExcursionPSD
Why are Backrests and Cargo Carriers (p. 86 of brochure) NOT listed/available for M-10 equipped short-track sleds?
They only seem to be available for Edge rear suspensioned 121" track snowmobiles, and Edge Touring machines.
Polaris_Industries
Backrests and Cargo Carriers are available for M-10 equipped short track units. Part numbers are as follows: #2873916 is the M-10 back rest brace kit to go with #2873753 which is the back rest itself. The cargo rack for an M10 121'' sled is part #2873915. Hope this helps...

ProX or REV SDI
polcat1
I and my family have had Polaris since 1978, I have an 02 XCSP7 with about 7k miles. I didn't update in 03 because I was hoping Pol would come out with an injected motor in 04. Now Ski DOO has a 600HO SDI, this motor is as fast as any Pol 700, much cleaner and smoother, plus it compensated like EFI.
Why should I pay $400 more for a ProX 7 when the motors are so far behind?
What have you done to make the 700 Competitive in power for 04?
Polaris_Industries
Contrary to your beliefs… the Liberty 700 twin continues to be very competitive in its segment. When the Liberty family first broke onto the snow pack a few years back, it along with the 600 twin, 500 twin and 800 twin were the most dominate line-up of engines anywhere. And while the competition continues to make strides to catch up… our Liberty engine family continues to deliver exceptional performance with the latest in technology including 3D digital ignitions; detonation sensor technology on all 700 and 800 engines; compression release technology on all 700 and 800 twins; and much more.
We should note a performance bulletin was issued to all dealers for select 700 and 800 Liberty twins this past winter which addressed a fail safe timing mode which was inadvertently being initiated under certain conditions. This produced less than ideal peak engine performance. Corrections to the CDI mapping and jetting were corrected in the field. This exact situation addresses the reason you may have seen our peak horsepower and performance numbers down during the 2003 Old Forge Shootout. At this writing we are continuing to research and evaluate potential performance enhancements moving forward.
polcat1
Thank you for your response! But it sound like Polaris is spending 2004 trying to catch up with what Polaris had in 2002!
I wish you would have given me a reason to buy an injected 2004 Pol. instead of an SDI Ski Doo.
I hope I have a reason to come back in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!

550 fan What is 362% more stable?
ExcursionPSD
I have been told that some of the features of the improved 550 fan are
* No-Offset Piston to improve durability
* 3D Digital CD Ignition
* Improved Combustion Chamber Design
* Improved Exhaust System
* 1mm thicker piston ring land
What does 362% more STABLE mean?
Also, how can it have a 3D Digital CD Ignition without a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Temperature Sensor?
Polaris_Industries
You are correct in regards to your laundry list of changes to the 550 engine for 2004. The measurement of improved stability is derived from a fish hook chart which details the performance attributes of the "old" 550 fan engine to the improved version found in the 2004 model year lineup. In short, the new engine is dramatically more stable, produces a very broad and flat powerband in comparison, and continues to deliver great performance when conditions change (i.e. temperatures change and or jetting is not ideal for conditions).
The 550 utilizes a digital ignition, but not a 3D timing map, thus the reason for no TPS sensors.
Wade, could you kindly put up an image of the graph that shows this?
Wade West
OK, the chart is in the Tech Notes articles archives. Hit the Articles link on the left to navigate there, or paste this URL for direct access:
http://www.amsnow.com/article.asp?id=4911
Enjoy!
-wade

Power Valves
Polar800XCSP
I have a ''02 800 XCSP that had the power valves warped and stuck in the cylinder. It took a month to get new valves which were the NEW ''03 power valves. I have heard of some people having the same problem with the ''03. What is causing these failures? My 2 year engine warranty will be over before I ever get to try the new valves and I am concerned with durability.
paystar4300
Will the det system help the 800 from eating valves?
Polaris_Industries
We have improved the durability of the valve material for the 2004 model year and associated replacement parts. This in combination with improvements made to the engine cooling system and engine calibration will assist in prevention of this issue in the future. I would ask for you to contact your Polaris Dealer in regards to this situation to ensure proper service is adhered to. If the unit fails on a similar issue out-side of your warranty period, please note Polaris always supports known issues.

BRING BACK THE TRIPPLES
muzzy
i know the tripples cost more to build, but people want them..you built the 04 proxR 800 because your survey said that 120 people would buy one . why don''t you take a survey and find out how many people would buy a new light weight tripple with all the technology that the twins are getting..
polarisprox1
well said
BlueX6
I'll second that!
bigcat
I'd buy one also....and I ride an arctic cat!
ditchbanger
Put me on top of that list! You as Polaris reps know as well as anyone that the only reason the triple-triple market died was because the manufacturers forced it into extinction. Simply put, the twin market only grew because that's all there is available with new tech. The triple-triples got better and better, then the progress stopped! And you wonder why sales aren't there. You surely won't sell pretty stickers on an ancient platform. Bottom line is...build it, and they will come.
mono12r
I feel like holding a memorial service......I mean, Polaris owned the class for years. The 500 Centurian, Indy 650 & RXL, XLT, and XCR800 were all legends. Hard to believe after all these years we have no tripple option. Well, lets hope for the future, and until then....
POLARIS 3 CYLINDER
1978 - 2003
RIP
Polaris_Industries
While there remains a dedicated core of triple engine lovers, the current state of the industry simply cannot support an engine platform with such a very limited sales base. Current customer surveys clearly indicate torque, handling and light-weight are high atop the want list, while top speed ranks in the bottom third of consumer desires. As for the 800 XR, I'm not sure where you got your survey numbers, however, this is a shared engine and chassis platform with other models in our mix, thus making the overall build numbers more palatable.

Trailing Arm Geometry
ny61#
Is the trailing arm geometry similar or different between the 04 XCSP and the Pro X sleds? I like the look of the Pro X arms better and would be interested in putting them on an XCSP,
dynofox
The 04 xc sp trailing arms are the same ones used since the early release 2000 1/2 xc 600. You can't put pro x trailing arms on a xc, the bulk heads are completely different.
pol895
and if you're going to spend the time and money to change the trailing arms, why don't you just buy a pro x?
ny61#
Because I want an M10, cause I have one now, I don't care for the handle bar controls on the ProX and I like the trailing arms better than the ones that come on the XCSP.
ExcursionPSD
The Pro-X trailing arm is 2'' shorter than the Edge trailing arm. There are major differences in the angle of the radius rods, tie rod ends, shocks. The Pro-X shock tower is also much higher.
Using a Pro-X trailing arm on a conventional Edge front suspension is not a good idea!
ny61#
Thanks, that was the information that I was looking for. Obviously not feasible.
Polaris_Industries
The two chassis are very much different. In short, the XCSP chassis utilizes longer trailer arms, a laid down shock design and a cast bulkhead member. The chassis is designed for a less aggressive ride, ideal for long trail rides, touring, etc. The PRO X chassis features a 2" shorter chromoly trailing arm, taller shock towers and an extruded bulkhead assembly. This system delivers a much more aggressive and positive steering geometry and is designed for performance oriented riders.

Clutch Calibration - How do you do it?
xcrtoyworx
How is it that you have been settling on clutch calibration of various models?
It seems that year after year, the performance models have a lot left in them. I can see clutching an INDY 500 for the masses, but it doesn''t make sense on a PROX 600.
Is it due to the various geography that you sell these sleds in?
This model year in particular (''03), all of the PROX models were way off for 0-3000 feet trail riding. We changed clutching in the 600 700 and 800 dramtically, and not one sled suffered any ill effects from the change. In all cases, we gained noticable acceleration, better backshift, higher top speeds (added 12 mph to the PROX800!), and on the 600''s, we saw a 2.5mpg improvement in fuel economy to boot.
I''ve had several customers that are starting to take notice, and are getting frustrated that they need to spend an additional $300.00 on a brand new $8000.00+ performance sled just to get it to run even with the other brands. Especially the guys with the PROX800 that were getting beat by SkiDoo''s REV600.
ditchbanger
I agree. I'm sure the outrageous mis-calibrations did play a part in the slip from number one in marketshare. People are tired, myself included, of taking the time and spending money on doing what we, the consumers, pay $8,000+ for Polaris to do. That being said, if the performance and calibrations don't match the price jump for 2004 i'm sure that marketshare will continue to slip further away.
Polaris_Industries
See associated answers above. In regards to clutch calibration, there are always ways to clutch a sled to be faster, gain more top speed, backshift quicker, pull harder at the bottom, etc… however you will always sacrifice other areas of performance. Regardless of the model of snowmobile we are calibrating, we must take into account a wide array of terrain conditions, riding habits, temperatures, snow types, trail types, altitude and way more. This vast array of combinations dictates how we calibrate our sleds to best fit the needs of all our customers as best we can for the widely varied set of circumstances.

Track Quality
Polar800XCSP
Why do Polaris Camoplast tracks have poor durability? My 1.25" track started throwing lugs at 1800 miles and was junk by 2200 miles. This was NOT a low snow issue. My original sliders and ski wear bars went 3400 miles. Freinds that I ride with have Skidoo and Cat 1.25" tracks have not had problems yet most Polasis riders I talk to have had the same experience as me.
Krom
Camoplast just builds the tracks to the manufacture specs.
Polaris_Industries
While we have very limited information here to go on, let's review a few items in regards to track durability. There are several factors which can lead to track failure or deterioration. Each dealer has a track durability chart issued by Polaris to educate customers on these failures and conditions. Marginal snow, or very hard-packed ice trails can expose tracks to severe friction and heat build-up. It is this heat build-up that can weaken track material and when under load or against sharp objects, can damage or tear easily. Also, studding of tracks incorrectly can cause damage to your track. Remember, the track is rubber, and like a motocross tire, it endures very severe environments. Please work with your dealer to gather more information so we can determine the cause of the failure.

Edge Touring,Switchback studding
ExcursionPSD
Will tunnel protectors be available from Polaris this season so that studs can be installed in Edge Touring or Switchback models?
The tunnel protectors do not seem to be available yet for ''03 Edge Touring.
700/800 Switchback models have a tail heat exchanger under the tunnel, this may cause an extra problem for tunnel protector installation.
Polaris_Industries
Tunnel protectors for these models will be available this fall and studding should not be an issue.

800 RMK ''Low Pin" drive clutch?
ExcursionPSD
This "Low Pin" drive clutch is supposed to be on the 800 RMK. What is the difference from a standard wide roller P85 primary?
Polaris_Industries
The difference describes where the pivot point on the primary weights is located. The "low-pin" drive clutch details the pivot location is lower on the weight arm than in other applications. What this creates is a slightly lower and less abrupt engagement, which is ideal in deep snow conditions, where you typically do not want to spin the track, but ease the footprint onto the snow pack.
Polaris_Industries
The difference describes where the pivot point on the primary weights is located. The "low-pin" drive clutch details the pivot location is lower on the weight arm than in other applications. What this creates is a slightly lower and less abrupt engagement, which is ideal in deep snow conditions, where you typically do not want to spin the track, but ease the footprint onto the snow pack.

04 Edge Touring rear suspension
ExcursionPSD
The instructions in the kit that comes with Service Bulletin S-03-08 for the '03 700/800 Edge Touring says to adjust the RCA to full stiff and then LEAVE IT ALONE!
What is changed on the 2004 that it is now used again for adjustment and is even equipped with the ACE electronic adjuster on the 800 Touring?
Polaris_Industries
For 2004, the Edge Touring rear suspension features a rear suspension spring calibration which allows for a great range of adjustments in the RCA. In addition, the 2004 system will feature a high pressure gas rear track shock to also improve ride quality and load range capacity.

"New" 550 fan motor
00edge
From the little bit of information I was able to read from the 2004 brochure, it appears that the 550 motor in the 550 Prox is the same motor that will be in the Super Sport and 550 Classic. Will there be a difference in clutching, gearing, timing etc on the different platforms? How will this motor compare to the 440 fan motor that was in the 2000 XCF I owned, that sled was darn quick. The 550 has been thought of as a bit of an underachiever - hopefully this one will deliver on the promise. Also can you elaborate a bit on the planned suspension calibration on the prox 550. Will this be delivered with a true SnoX suspension or will it be delivered with more compiant suspension settings. My 2000 XCF was brutal on stutter bumps but great on the big bumps. Thank you SM (long time Polaris owner)
Polaris_Industries
The revised 550 Fan engine will make its way into all 550 platforms for the 2004 model year. The only differences in timing and jetting will be found between the Vertical Edge Trail RMK and those models designed for sea level operation (i.e. 550 PRO X; SuperSport; etc). Overall, the performance of the new 550 will be improved over the 440 fan race focused motor. The most noticeable improvements will be found in the mid-range, where the 550 clearly shines. Even more importantly, the new 550 engine produces a very broad and stable power band, which is much less susceptible to temperature and jetting changes in regards to power output. While the 440 fan is a great race engine, the 550 will bring to the table comparable power with a much more stable and broader power delivery.
Suspension calibrations of the 550 PRO X will be more compliant than the 2000 XCF and should fall just slightly softer than the 2003 PRO X calibrations.

power valves
paystar4300
Hi ,My question is do they have the power valve problem worked out,I bought a 03 pro x800,and at about 1800 miles it broke a valve off and fell into cyl.now I feel there is a reliability problem now,I don''t want to have to worry about my motor.I just want to sled!!!
dynofox
Is there a problem with the VES on the 02 700 motor?
Polaris_Industries
We have improved the durability of the valve material for the 2004 model year and associated replacement parts. This in combination with improvements made to the engine cooling system and engine calibration will assist in prevention of this issue in the future.

M-10 ACE
jim
I've had a few rides where the shock was so full of ice that the adjustment did not function. Has this been looked at for 2004? By the way, most of the time is works fine and it is really great.
Polaris_Industries
For 2004, the rear shock has been improved in many areas including a protective cover to help eliminate ice build up. In addition, normal pre-ride maintenance needs to be followed to clear the track and suspension of ice and debris prior to riding.