VES 800 Big Bearing Kits / Do they Work

[indydan]

2000 - 2005 Polaris 800 Crank Problems explained.

I have seen 800 VES motors go 5000 miles no issues I have seen them go 500 and lose the crank. What's up ?
I heard the Cases caused it, I heard certain RMP range causes it to eat the case, which makes the crank fail.

I have and 02 / 800 VES and an 02 / 700 VES. The 7's don't seem to suffer.

.

Ok, I have pounded around in my head........ Explaining Findings on the 2000/2005 800 Polaris Crank Problems for ALONG time.

My First thought was.......DON'T even think about it, Its just not worth it.

This Thread has changed my mind.

Let me give you all a fast and simple overview of why the 800 suffered far more then the 700.

I have said this before on the internet -

ONE HUGE REASON !!!! When Polaris lengthened the Stroke they Made the Lower Connecting Rod Pin smaller, plain and simple lost much needed support on the O.D. of the Rod Pin. Where as the 700 had a much bigger Rod Pin it could with stand more quality control problems then the 800

I believe Polaris Read what I said, and I am the ONLY one to ever say it.
**NOTE** The New Polaris 800 motor has a much bigger Lower Connecting Rod Pin. Search the internet high and low ( Has anyone ever told you this....... )

The small Connecting Rod Pin is why the Lock ring Bearing is so important on all 2000-2005 800 Big Block Motors.

Theres ( 2 )...... Million dollar questions.

#1 - Is the Wide Bearing Upgrade worth it ????????

Answer - ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!

#2 - Has the 2000 - 2005 800 Crank Problems been solved to a degree as good or better then any other 800 Twin built to date ???

Answer - ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!!!

Think about this folks.......Over the past years, Year 2000 to 2006/2007... To my knowing there was no reports of an 800 Crank That Indy Specialty Built having any PTO-End Related failure.

Then in 2008 a few cranks that had been sold with, the only 3 year warranty in the business had a few PTO-end failures...........

Now that being said...............Why in the world do you think that happened ???? And if in fact it did happen why would a shop that had a 3 year warranty........Why would they change to a 5 year Warranty ???

I will tell you why -

( 2 ) reasons-

#1 - I tested and found out that the Double Row Bearing is a bad idea and IF all things are perfect it will NOT last under extreme conditions ( If ALL things are not perfect - Meaning the case or the crank are just a touch out of spec the wide bearing can last a very long time. The truth of the matter is this.......If the crankcase fit is exactly what it should be given countless tests, and the crankshaft PTO O.D. is exactly what it should be.........That means ( 2 ) things happen

#2 - With PTO-end interference fit you swell the inner race, With Proper Crankcase fit you actually crush the outter Race of the bearing.......Now that being said, with these two factors in mind ( Mind you... For the most part a bearing is not designed to be expanded and contracted at the same time behond a reasonable amount ) What happens ........Is the clearance built into the bearing between the inner and outter race where the balls are has been reduced to almost ZERO........Now that into consideration, The factory
had ( 2 ) Narrow bearings with a WIDE gap ( spacer ) between them ( And only ( 2 ) rows of ball bearings ).

NOW- Imagin the wide bearing is installed........

Again ( 2 ) things happen -

#1 - You have filled the entire space with bearing other then ( 1) little tiny .060 Thousand spacer.

#2 - You now have ( 3 ) Rows of ball bearings.

Guess what happens............You build mass amounts of heat, It can change the temper of the metal........It also leads to premature crank seal leakage, and premature crank failure.

From 2000 till sometime in 2007 I didn't use the Wide Bearing...........Then all the BUZZ was the wide bearing Upgrade EVERYONE Had to have it. ( You couldn't sell a 800 crank without it )

So I started including it at some point..........Don't misunderstand me here........Just because it sometimes works does NOT mean it is correct. Its just luck. The Wide Bearing Upgrade is a BAD Idea for everyday use in a perfect assembled motor.

If you had and woren PTO-end..............................................
Or Poor Crankcase Fit...........................................................
Or the crankcase was assembled with to much Crankcase sealer...

That being said - You could actually get by with the Wide bearing.

BUT if you had what we call a perfect crank by Polaris in the Middle of high and low measurements, And a Crankcase that was in the middle of the high and low measurements and you had the perfect amount of case sealer ( Less is better ) The cases are suppose to get to a Metal to Metal fit.

All that being said..........If your parts are close to perfect and you install
the Wide Bearing your motor will NOT last as long as it would have with the Factory Polaris OEM PTO-Bearing set-up.

WHEW!!!!!!! I realize I am jumping around a little bit here -

Back to why I went from a 3 year warranty to a 5 Year warranty.

Simple !!!!!!!! I figured out the damage the Wide Bearing was causing and I addressed it..........I went to a different PTO-Bearing configuration that runs cooler and I redesigned the PTO-end Completely.

My New 800 Torque Master III Has the same design as The 900 Torque Master III ( And there has never been a Broken Indy Specailty 800/900 Torque Master III PTO-End. )

The weak link of the OEM PTO-End, Is the fact that the Bolt hole that is drilled to hold the drive clutch on is to BIG and to deep for the O.D. of the end itself.

So the Fact is this.........The 800 Torque Master III has corrected all the problems to a degree above and behond that of any other 800 Built to date.

The 800 Torque Master III is 1mm Bigger then the new Dragon 800, And the hole bored thru the crankshaft is much smaller and the threads are located right under the clutch taper where they belong........NOT under the bearings where it can swell the shaft and cause heat.

I know what a few of you are thinking..........

Your saying to yourself..........Well if the wide bearing takes up all the space and builds to much heat why would Polaris put ( 1 ) super wide bearing in the new Dragon.......

The reason it works is this............It may look like a MONSTER bearing.

Its just a super wide inner and outter race with just ( 2 ) rows of ball bearings just like the OLD Big Block ( I.E. ) Less heat is created by less rotating mass.

The benifit to the ( 1 ) super wide bearing is that its a little easier on the crankcase simply because it covers more area. ( Not needed ) If the crank stays straight the case will not wear.

Thats as short as I can keep it and still hopefully get the point across.

The Bottem-line. The 800 Torque Master III Has solved all the problems and it has the warranty to back it. The 800 Big Block is one of the best 800 motors Built to date when its all done correctly.

I hope this shows light into a very misunderstood Motor.


Dan

 

[rmk727]

very interesting Danny boy, I understand it and totally believe all of it, in our shop we do our own wide bearing kit and have had only 2 failures but I do most of them and I'm old and like to see lots of gray coming out of the case haves so you have taught me something. Thanks and no i won't continue doing it I'll start getting your stuff for a perfect fix. Like to meet you in Togwotee sometime

 

[mountainmanic]

Is there anyway to tell if your crank is going by the run out? Or any other predictive measures? I am thoroughly 50/50 on the whole mod now. I have 1800mi on my 03 vertical escape. Thinking i will just gamble this up coming season and save my money. Such a wonderfully expensive sport!

 

[RMKcowboy]

Is there anyway to tell if your crank is going by the run out? Or any other predictive measures? I am thoroughly 50/50 on the whole mod now. I have 1800mi on my 03 vertical escape. Thinking i will just gamble this up coming season and save my money. Such a wonderfully expensive sport!

Dan- doesn't the Torque Master III require an AC primary clutch?

 

[mountainhorse]

Yes... it does require an AC clutch...

And it is included in the Torquemaster III bottom end,... Balanced and shimmed already.

 

[alsled]

I read most of this topic, everyone is so concerned on the case on a 800 as far as tolerances.

What does the rod pin dia have to do with a pto bearing going out?

What does rod pin dia. have to do with the pto drive end breaking?

If case tolerance was the culpret, then the 700 would have seen the same amount of failures. I'm sure the 700 case is nothing special as compared to the 800 case.

2 mm more stroke, more vibrations, with a wimpy bottom end.

Dan, I take it that the stock cat clutch has a bigger dia.?, So you made a bigger dia. drive end for the poo crank?

Will all my springs and wieghts for a poo fit the cat drive clutch?

Lets look at the primary clutch on a 700 and 800 twin.

The 700 small cover bushing, the 800, big cover busing.

I wonder why? The 800 sure doesn't make enough power to break a 700 clutch.

2mm more stroke, harmonics on the 800 amplified by worn primary clutch, with a who knows how straight the crank was when you put it in.

I just don't think the case has a dam thing to do with it.

Look at a psi pos 1155 or other big twin even the cat 900 with a 76mm stroke.

They can eat clutchs pretty well, thats why the cat has a wieght on thier clutch, the psi poo clutch didn't last long unless you ran a electric start clutch, Extra wieght helped the vibrations go away.

Even micro belmont wouldn't sell me a clutch.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if you have a 800 poo, trust your crank guy to have it straight, keep your primary shimmed tight with no wabble, it will last.

I have 7000 miles on a poo 800 crank, I go through the clutch every year, and what I think is a saving grace is I run a 911 clutch cover with a huge bearing surface and dia. compared to even the 800 cover and have had to replace the bushing a few times.

Its funny that 3 of us run this setup, never had a crank go out, the other guys with stock covers and low maint. have all had issues.

For what its worth I run redline race oil, but break my engines in on some old poo blue.

 

[mountainhorse]

With a 5 YEAR warranty on his cranks/cases ... I'll take that over something without.

Yes the IndySpecialties PTO end is bigger... 33mm... to match the Cat clutch which uses the Polaris weights and spring AND is shimmed for the belt you are running. Each and every clutch is ballanced and bluprinted and thoroughly checked out.



You obvously have a great crankcase alsled.... many dont and many have obviously had problems... even with brand new cases/clutches/crankshafts...

It is cool that you have had good luck and performed maintenance on your sled... many have done the maintenence, had the balance done on thier clutch and have broken more than one pto snout.

With the number of 800's out there... im sure there are more non broken cranks out there than broken.... but the failure rate is definately unacceptable.

The reason that Indy offers the 5 yr warranty is because he is confident he will not be getting very many of these back under warranty.. for those that do....he backs his product.

Has he had some returns... yes... has he honored his warranty and paid for shipping... yes again....

Also, Indy offers a complete shortblock assy with a new primary clutch/pistons/re nicasil etc with the warranty for $2500... what does a short block cost from the dealer? Does that dealer engine have a new clutch and a 3 yr warranty?

IMO... IndySpecialty products are a value and deliver peace of mind.

 

[rmk727]

I'm with the Horse on this one, Indy Dan's written a book on here explaining the problem and the fix and has the creditability to back it ; some of als questions and comments have been answered several times sure the 911 is a great ad on too but not a sure fix. Dan is like Glen Beck correct in everything he says and does but a little over zelous and a little to hard on the establishment (Poo) not that they don' need it but they are not totally wrong all the time

 

[indydan]

Great stuff here gents.

Alsled, many of the things you mentioned are on track.......But a few are a little short on info.

You say case don't have a damn thing to do with it.........THAT is completely incorrect.

as for you comparison of the 700 to the 800 is not fair.

The only reason the 700 cranks last longer than the 800's is because the lower rod pin diameter is larger and has way more wheel support ( I have stated this before many times.

Its very possible that Polaris has seen me mention this..........The New Dragon 800 has larger lower rod pins like the old 700.

That being said, When case fit is sub-par on an 800 then PTO wheel walk is much more obvious thus two things happen.....

# 1 the crank goes out of tru and works on the rod pin and has a tendency to break the rod pin or break the end itself from the clutch whipping out of tru thus stressing the end.

#2 - as for the stroke of 2mm longer it really doesn't matter, Its all about the lower rod pin diameter.

All this being said..........You are infact doing what is needed to minimize
these effects.

The 911 cover doesn't hurt a thing........ ( Not needed ) the OEM cover is fine.

As for the ring gear as a mass weight is the single cheapest best thing you can do to an 800........any 800 or bigger twin needs mass. Most Polaris cranks are to lite. ( My 900 crank is 5 pounds heavier than stock. )

As for the cat 900 clutch........As MH said I use the cat 33 mm clutch that can run the Polaris weights and spring.

The benifit of the 33mm PTO end is three fold.........

#1 - the O.D. is of course 3mm bigger

#2 - the clutch bolt is much smaller
from 14mm down to 7/16

#3 - the bore depth of the puller hole on the polaris goes all the way thru to the inner bearing...........as where my new PTO end is completely solid under both bearings where the polaris end likes to break.

I hope I covered everything discussed.

Thanks, Dan

 

[SixtySevenGT]

Thanks for the Input

The torque Plate and Stops make sense. The Balance on the Clutch seems to be overlooked alot. Line boring the cases makes sense also.
I do believe that just a big bearing is not the answer.

 

[indydan]

Dan- doesn't the Torque Master III require an AC primary clutch?

Yes it sure does, And it is all set up and shimmed to run Polaris weights and springs and It shifts just like the Polaris clutch.

 

[indydan]

The torque Plate and Stops make sense. The Balance on the Clutch seems to be overlooked alot. Line boring the cases makes sense also.
I do believe that just a big bearing is not the answer.

Correct.

 

[INDEEP]

This is the first year that I've had my primary shimmed for my belt and I have so say it's awesome. Engagement is so smooth and that can't hurt. I've always been a believer in balancing but now shimming also. What's a bunch of crap is that if Polaris made these right from the beginning we wouldn't need a $1600 mod just to make them durable. I would have love to spent that money someplace else on the sled.

 

[alsled]

#2 - as for the stroke of 2mm longer it really doesn't matter, Its all about the lower rod pin diameter.


The 911 cover doesn't hurt a thing........ ( Not needed ) the OEM cover is fine.

As for the ring gear as a mass weight is the single cheapest best thing you can do to an 800........any 800 or bigger twin needs mass. Most Polaris cranks are to lite. ( My 900 crank is 5 pounds heavier than stock. )

Dan,

Thanks you opened my eyes on the crank pin dia, I didn't know that, thats why I don't touch the crank and have a local guy build mine.

I disagree with you on the crank being 2mm longer not really matering. We all know piston speeds go up with a longer stroke and harmonics get worse. Look at the 600's and 700's, all considered to be some smoth running engines. Look at the liberty 800's there is some noticeable difference, probably why poo put a bigger cover bushing on. You also admitted that running the ring gear is a great benifit.

Look at all the 76 mm stroke engines, th cat 900, the handis bounce around.

My 1155, ( besides being a poorlly built and poorlly assembled pos from our favorite snowmobiling engine builder idiot) shook the whole dynoroom at dyno tech research. Jim still shakes his head when them long stroke bigbores are running and hopes they don't explode.

I know the wieght on the clutch helps alot.

We had 2 psi 1155's
1 with a electric start cluth, 700 miles on it and still looked ok. ( 20 miles of that was being towed)
Mine with no electric start, 350 miles and there was .020 between the buttons. ( mine was never towed, it broke down close to the road most of the time)
Microbelmont wouldn't sell me a clutch.
Aeaan, 4 star roller clutch, 3 miles on it exploded the rollers, never even hitting wot, just dialing it in.

The 911 cover bushing is huge compared to the poo heavycover. Any less wear helps hear as the clutch runs truer to center. Also once you shim the stock cover you need to rebalance the poo clutch if you don't get the movable sheave exactlly oriantated to the stationary sheeve. Thats why I run the 911 with the quick adjuster.

Sorry for me getting off track of the large bearing.

The crank I'm putting in the new sled describes exactlly as what you are saying. The crank has 7500 miles on it. My crank builder said the drive end was shot and reccomended me gettin a new one. He showed me where the wear takes place in the pin area. I found a new pto end, and he put on a single very wide bearing. He had to cut 1.5mm off each end of the race to make it fit. Then he milled the oil injection slot out to the seal area. He put a locating pin in the bearing and milled a small slot in the cas kinda like the xcr tripples have. This hole puts the bearing in a specific spot. He drilled through the outside race inline with the oil drip hole. So now the oil that would drip between the stock bearings goes right into the bearing as this bearin is 1 piece and would cover the hole. ( even though there was no hol, it was a 03 case and I always drill out the 02,03 case's.

All the pins are welded also.

Good thread, I learned something, thanks to all.

 

[indydan]

Dan,



I disagree with you on the crank being 2mm longer not really matering. We all know piston speeds go up with a longer stroke and harmonics get worse. Look at the 600's and 700's, all considered to be some smoth running engines. Look at the liberty 800's there is some noticeable difference, probably why poo put a bigger cover bushing on. You also admitted that running the ring gear is a great benifit.

Look at all the 76 mm stroke engines, th cat 900, the handis bounce around.

My 1155, ( besides being a poorlly built and poorlly assembled pos from our favorite snowmobiling engine builder idiot) shook the whole dynoroom at dyno tech research. Jim still shakes his head when them long stroke bigbores are running and hopes they don't explode.

I know the wieght on the clutch helps alot.

We had 2 psi 1155's
1 with a electric start cluth, 700 miles on it and still looked ok. ( 20 miles of that was being towed)
Mine with no electric start, 350 miles and there was .020 between the buttons. ( mine was never towed, it broke down close to the road most of the time)
Microbelmont wouldn't sell me a clutch.
Aeaan, 4 star roller clutch, 3 miles on it exploded the rollers, never even hitting wot, just dialing it in.

The 911 cover bushing is huge compared to the poo heavycover. Any less wear helps hear as the clutch runs truer to center. Also once you shim the stock cover you need to rebalance the poo clutch if you don't get the movable sheave exactlly oriantated to the stationary sheeve. Thats why I run the 911 with the quick adjuster.

Sorry for me getting off track of the large bearing.

The crank I'm putting in the new sled describes exactlly as what you are saying. The crank has 7500 miles on it. My crank builder said the drive end was shot and reccomended me gettin a new one. He showed me where the wear takes place in the pin area. .

All the pins are welded also.

Good thread, I learned something, thanks to all.

Al, Your concerns about stroke are valid past 70mm, But the 800 Polaris does not suffer from problems related to stroke..........I see way to many stock OEM Motors with 15,000 miles plus some of 20,000 from trail riders the start the sled up and engage the clutch to the belt and then drive it until the tanks empty with very minimal stops other the a few stop signs.

Every long range motor I see all have simlar riders ( Most ex-drinkers ) that just plain ride alot and don't stop at bars. The boondockers are the guys that tear things up..........If the stroke was the problem then high miles would be just as hard on the crank as lots of low speed engage & disengagements.

I low mile boondock crank always looks worse then a super high mileage trail crank.

As for the 911 cover.......As you say they are good.........But the OEM bushing only costs $10 bucks and you can replace it ALOT for the cost of a 911 cover.

There is No substitute for accurate drive clutch shimming to keep the moveable from slapping the belt instead of squeezing it.

The rod pin is simply to small and offers little support to a drive clutch that is slapping........This is where the lock-ring I cut into the caser really helps the rod pin support.

You are correct on the mass weight the bigger the motor the more it helps.

good thread.

 

[indydan]

welding

Al, one more thing.

Welding domestic cranks absolutely does not work.

If the cases are bad no weld in the world will hold.

IF the the crank pin and or crank wheel in woren the weld will not hold.

IF the crank is good and case is good then the wled is fine and will not hurt and also will not help.
I have pressed apart hundreds of welded cranks and have NEVER found a welded crank that pressed apart as hard as a good non welded crank.


Dan