Would you use this cylinder in its condition? It is off of a 04 summit 800. It has been re-coated. While putting in the head bolt it bound up and in the very long process of getting the bolt out these hairline cracks happened.
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Would YOU use this cylinder ?????
- Thread starter going360
- Start date
No I would not use it in that condition. Have it welded and resurfaced or find a replacement. Take a little extra time to fix it right, it will be worth the wait.
No I would not use it in that condition. Have it welded and resurfaced or find a replacement. Take a little extra time to fix it right, it will be worth the wait.
is there a possibility of repair?? By a good machine shop?
You MIGHT take it to a welder, but, it looks like there is a lot of stress holding the crack open for some reason. Worth taking it and seeing what they say!
I'm a hokey, cheap, back-yard engineer that will try anything to keep a sled running. This being the case, if I were really desperate, I would install a stud in the cracked hole, as deep as the threads would allow, maybe using a little locktite. A stud will put less stress on the threads than a bolt. If you are worried about the hole opening up, you could helicoil it first. I would want to ride my first few miles close to home or truck until I was satisfied that it was going to stay sealed. This could get you by until you find another cylinder.
Of course, the CORRECT way would be to throw money at it, and fix it right, but what fun is that??
Of course, the CORRECT way would be to throw money at it, and fix it right, but what fun is that??
That is a tough spot. An excellet welder maybe able to weld some of the crack up. However, doing so without screwing up the coating or deforming the bore would be difficult. If I am looking at this correctly, the bolt that goes in this holds the head to the cylinder? I would think that it may be better to explore the stud approach. If you can get enough thread engaged below the crack it would be fine. Drill and tapthe hole 1/4 to 1/2 in deeper and re-thread it. Install a stud, I would use high temp jb weld to glue it inplace. The threads appear a bit screwed up in the picture and should be chased with a tap anyway. A good machine shop may not have the bottoming tap to do the job as it is metric. Most likely they could modify a cheap conventional tap for the on off project.
I would say "nope" looks like that crack runs into a water jacket. I dont know of a welder that could reach down in the water jacket that far. I think you might want to find another cyl.
Mic your cylinder. If it is still round within tollerance and no cracks in the cylinder, it is possible to use it.
The cracks going into the water jacket are sealed by the o-rings on either side of the bolt hole.
If it was for a customer, I would replace it. If it was my own stuff, I would get a tap and retap the hole a bit deeper. Most of the time the bolt holes are not tapped all the way to the bottom.
Install a stud all the way to the bottom using red loctite.
Welding and remachining is not an option. If you resurface the top, you will loose at a minimum .010. Your head will not sit flat on both cylinders.
I work in a machine shop and am also a Certified Welding Inspector with the AWS. I have welded up crank cases on boats, snomobiles and other cast aluminum products. Cast aluminium welds poorly to say the least.
I don't see any way that welding it is going to do anything but screw it up worse.
If you are worried about the crack leaking water, use some high temp silicon and seal around the stud and a copper washer and some sealant around the nut when you install the head.
I know this sound kinda back yard and hoky but a little J-B weld to seal the cracks will also work. That stuff is pretty good.
There is no side pressure on those bolts, so the J-B would only be used as a crack sealer, not for strength.
Like others have said. Best option, replace. If it were mine, I would fix it. But then again, I spend my whole life fixing stuff that got screwed up somehow.
Best of luck.
The cracks going into the water jacket are sealed by the o-rings on either side of the bolt hole.
If it was for a customer, I would replace it. If it was my own stuff, I would get a tap and retap the hole a bit deeper. Most of the time the bolt holes are not tapped all the way to the bottom.
Install a stud all the way to the bottom using red loctite.
Welding and remachining is not an option. If you resurface the top, you will loose at a minimum .010. Your head will not sit flat on both cylinders.
I work in a machine shop and am also a Certified Welding Inspector with the AWS. I have welded up crank cases on boats, snomobiles and other cast aluminum products. Cast aluminium welds poorly to say the least.
I don't see any way that welding it is going to do anything but screw it up worse.
If you are worried about the crack leaking water, use some high temp silicon and seal around the stud and a copper washer and some sealant around the nut when you install the head.
I know this sound kinda back yard and hoky but a little J-B weld to seal the cracks will also work. That stuff is pretty good.
There is no side pressure on those bolts, so the J-B would only be used as a crack sealer, not for strength.
Like others have said. Best option, replace. If it were mine, I would fix it. But then again, I spend my whole life fixing stuff that got screwed up somehow.
Best of luck.
I would use it without question. Use a stud in the one hole. Garanteed it will be fine.
I would use it without question. Use a stud in the one hole. Garanteed it will be fine.
I want to believe you so badly... Have you used something like this before or at least why do you think it will be fine?
I guess my big issue is I just know that if it does fail it will be 50 miles from nowhere or I will always be worried about it doing so...
For me, this is a no-brainer. I would take the chance.
If you can get a solid purchase at the bottom of the hole, at least equal in thread depth as to the diameter of the stud, I would practically guarantee that it will work. If you are skeptical as to whether or not the threads will hold, or if you can not get into some threads that do not have a cack running through them, just heli-coil it. The heli-coil will REALLY strengthen up that hole. I almost think that I would heli-coil it just to be on the safe side that the threads don't pull later. I would use loctite when seating the stud as well. You do not have to worry about water leaking through or around the threads. However, I would use some crankcase sealer or some other really good elastic non-hardening sealer on the threads of the nut, and under the base of the nut itself. I would try to use a nut that has a molded washer in the base as part of its design to help ensure a good seal.
Once it is together, go hammer on that engine hard, maybe going through a couple heating/cooling cycles, riding close to home/truck for an hour. If it passes, meaning that you are not leaking water into, or outside the cylinder, and the nut still maintains its torque value, your good to go.
Glad that some of you guys backed up my idea of using the stud!
If you can get a solid purchase at the bottom of the hole, at least equal in thread depth as to the diameter of the stud, I would practically guarantee that it will work. If you are skeptical as to whether or not the threads will hold, or if you can not get into some threads that do not have a cack running through them, just heli-coil it. The heli-coil will REALLY strengthen up that hole. I almost think that I would heli-coil it just to be on the safe side that the threads don't pull later. I would use loctite when seating the stud as well. You do not have to worry about water leaking through or around the threads. However, I would use some crankcase sealer or some other really good elastic non-hardening sealer on the threads of the nut, and under the base of the nut itself. I would try to use a nut that has a molded washer in the base as part of its design to help ensure a good seal.
Once it is together, go hammer on that engine hard, maybe going through a couple heating/cooling cycles, riding close to home/truck for an hour. If it passes, meaning that you are not leaking water into, or outside the cylinder, and the nut still maintains its torque value, your good to go.
Glad that some of you guys backed up my idea of using the stud!
I agree with the Heli coil also. The nice thing about the Helicoil is you can install as many as it takes to fill all the threads.
What I mean is, screw one all the way to the bottom, install another one on top of that one, and if there is room stick one right at the top. If some of the helicoil sticks out the top, no problem, take a die grinder with a cutoff disc and trim it off flush.
I drove old broken Subaru cars when I was young, dang near every time I took an engine apart it ended up with some helicoils in it.
I have a lawn mower and an old Yamaha phazer that have helicoil threads in the spark plugs theads. Never been a problem.
Again, best of luck.
What I mean is, screw one all the way to the bottom, install another one on top of that one, and if there is room stick one right at the top. If some of the helicoil sticks out the top, no problem, take a die grinder with a cutoff disc and trim it off flush.
I drove old broken Subaru cars when I was young, dang near every time I took an engine apart it ended up with some helicoils in it.
I have a lawn mower and an old Yamaha phazer that have helicoil threads in the spark plugs theads. Never been a problem.
Again, best of luck.
ok... I am into the heli coil but my question is: is there enough room for me to drill the hole out for the heli coil. It just seems that the hole is very close already to the bore.
And this brings up another question. Is 21ft lbs the correct torque for the cylinder bolts and 31 ft lbs correct for the head bolts?
And this brings up another question. Is 21ft lbs the correct torque for the cylinder bolts and 31 ft lbs correct for the head bolts?
21 for the head bolts, and I don't remember for sure but I think 27 for the cylinder.
See how far down into the bolt hole the cracks go. It looks to me that a stud will reach quite a ways farther than the crack.
How did you get the crack? Putting an 8mm bolt into a 6mm hole? It looks to me that the crack is only near the top and you would still have solid threads at the bottom of the hole.
See how far down into the bolt hole the cracks go. It looks to me that a stud will reach quite a ways farther than the crack.
How did you get the crack? Putting an 8mm bolt into a 6mm hole? It looks to me that the crack is only near the top and you would still have solid threads at the bottom of the hole.
D
diggerdown
Well-known member
Looks like someone had the wrong bolt in the hole. The threads did'nt get like that from to much torque. I'd give the studs and JB weld a shot.
21 for the head bolts, and I don't remember for sure but I think 27 for the cylinder.
See how far down into the bolt hole the cracks go. It looks to me that a stud will reach quite a ways farther than the crack.
How did you get the crack? Putting an 8mm bolt into a 6mm hole? It looks to me that the crack is only near the top and you would still have solid threads at the bottom of the hole.
I got the cracks by putting in a head bolt that was a little bit corroded.
The bolt bound up and then while trying to back it out the head snapped off. It cracked while getting the broken bolt out. I checked and the hole will hold 21 ft lbs with just a bolt.
N
NITROSKIDUDE
Well-known member
Looks like someone had the wrong bolt in the hole. The threads did'nt get like that from to much torque. I'd give the studs and JB weld a shot.
Yeap a stud and JB weld that will seal the crack to. Besides you won''t need to pull the stud again anyway.
I agree with the guys talking about the stud idea, but I'm not sure I would waste the time to drill it bigger, tap it and heli coil it in. If there is still good threads in the hole I'd run the right size tap in and out a few times with some thread cutting oil to clean it up as much as you can. Then use some ether to get all the oil out and let it dry really good before JB welding the stud in. If you can get to it, you could also use a small drill like 1/16" and drill a hole at the bottom of the crack to keep it from spreading further and let the JB weld fill it in. One thing to be careful of though is not to get the stud too tight into the bottom of the hole where it would put more stress on that crack and completely break it out into the water jacket.
Good Luck and make sure you use some good anti seize on the other bolts to keep them from galling up the next time you have to take it off
Good Luck and make sure you use some good anti seize on the other bolts to keep them from galling up the next time you have to take it off
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