Wind Energy is our future..........really???

[IGOTGAS]

I'm like all of you, no one wants a polluted planet but I'd rather harvest our own resources, or MY own resources and then develop an auto that runs on something other than gas so the I can plug in it into my house so the Oil Companies and Public Utilities can choke on thier monopolies.

I just want to put this in perspective for you. You have heard this many times now from Obamie......"We need to develop wind energy so we don't have to be dependent on foreign oil." "Sounds great BRO" but the problem is, we get less than 2% of our electricity from oil you yutz!!

Go to this web-site, click on the graph and you will see what energy sources are used to produce electricity. Remember natural gas (used for peak hour turbines) comes from the US and Canada.

http://www.eei.org/ourissues/ElectricityGeneration/FuelDiversity/Pages/default.aspx

This is the power of lobbiest and propaganda. As part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, there is a new Investment Tax Credit for wind devolopers & owners. It offers a credit of 30% against the capital cost of a project. Those are huge dollars that we are subsidizing, considering the cost of a wind turbine is $1.2m per 1 mw. Average turbine today is 1.5 mega watts, moving to 2.5, so that makes the cost of turbines $2,200,000 to $3,500,000 and we the tax payer is giving this industry 30% of that cost....or they can take advantage of the Production Tax Credit which is $.02/kw of production.

BOTTOM LINE, it's more bull that leads the soft brained folks around by the nose. If they really cared about the people, they would give homeowners the credits so we can install small 5 kw turbines or solar panels on our house so we could get off the grid, then we wouldn't have the landscape littered with turbines and solar farms. These facts should help point out that there is more to the story than we're getting fed.

 

[Gainster]

Cool link I need to spend some time on.
I still cant figure why our leader bowed to the Saudi King
Maybe he is the one who financed Obamas rise to power

I dont hear anything on this anymore http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/

 

[woodzy]

If they really cared about the people, they would give homeowners the credits so we can install small 5 kw turbines or solar panels on our house so we could get off the grid, then we wouldn't have the landscape littered with turbines and solar farms.

If you install these you won't want to get off the grid... You stay connected and sell your extra KW back to them

 

[ChrisPolariski]

There was a big huff about a bunch of ducks dying in the tailing ponds at Fort McMurry oil sands project, but how many birds will all these wind farms kill?
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009...ds-versus-green-energy-in-the-salinas-valley/

 

[moldy]

I think you missed part of the idea. Have you checked into Pickens Plan? The basic premise is to use less natural gas for electric production because of wind power, and then use that natural gas for motor fuel, thus reducing our dependancy on foreign oil.

 

[Ex-Member]

Efficiency's another big key here, kids... sure, pump R&D funds into high efficiency wind/solar/etc.... but 100% efficiency means you only get out what you put in. And in the grand scheme of things, wind and solar really don't put out that much.

 

[Ollie]

There was a big huff about a bunch of ducks dying in the tailing ponds at Fort McMurry oil sands project, but how many birds will all these wind farms kill?
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009...ds-versus-green-energy-in-the-salinas-valley/

Wanna hear something funny.
The animal rights nuts are sueing the state of california to shut down all wind towers. They have lots of photos showing hundreds of dead birds at the base of the towers.

 

[SAWYER]

I'm having a party tonight. I'm gonna go start my fire with 5 gallons of diesel. I'm burning some old railroad ties completeley soaked with criosilt (sp)

 

[Wade]

Alright, you guys are killing me. I'll be Dr Evil here.

Wind power is not all bad. Yha, it kills birds, but so do environmentalist. And, so do radio towers, and buildings. You just have to put them on the right ridge, with a blinking light atop them.

A wind mill around 2.5 megawatts puts out about 160 dollars worth of electricity every hour, or a 1,000,000 dollars worth every year, and that's at Idaho rates of 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour, double that for any of the People's Republics states.. The farmer that's barely making it on cattle, he gets $4,000 or more ever year, to just let the thing sit on his property. There's a guy getting paid to take care of the the things. They need a lot of maintenance. Have you noticed how big the parts are? They can't afford to ship those blades and towers over here from Commie land. They must be manufactured here, to be economical. There's a lot of jobs installing and manufacturing those things, 85,000 to be exact.

Power is power is energy, electricity, heat, or propulsion. People will gravitate to the cheapest source of energy. If your making energy with wind, your freeing up other forms of energy. Electric cars are coming. They will work. Basically, you end up with a wind powered car. Yha, there's pollution in the manufacturing of the windmill, but after that's over, it's pollution free. In stead of heating your home with gas, you heat it with electricity. The gas get's liquefied to run transportation systems.

Here's the real reason I support it though. I would put up with a lot, to not buy one more drop of oil from those bastards in the middle east. Now or in the future. We already make about 26 Gigawatts of energy with wind, of course that's only 1.3% of what we use. But, at the rate their going, we could have 20% of our energy from wind by 2030. That would make it bigger than natural gas. And, you know, it's American Made energy, not foreign. So, I'm really not all that against this idea. Solar's coming too.

Oh, and did I mention it pisses off greenies?

 

[Ex-Member]

I'm having a party tonight. I'm gonna go start my fire with 5 gallons of diesel. I'm burning some old railroad ties completeley soaked with criosilt (sp)

Creosote.

 

[RMK7SledHead]

Electric cars are coming. They will work. Basically, you end up with a wind powered car.

Agreed...especially with the "they will work" part. Instant torque will be awesome. The issue is making the electricity.

While I'm not as big a fan of wind power as Wade is, it's not bad. What we REALLY NEED though is nuclear power...and LOTS of it. We need to be like France in this endeavor and make the majority of our power with nukes. Safe, reliable, and in the end, cheap power.

 

[06 RMK 900]

Agreed...especially with the "they will work" part. Instant torque will be awesome. The issue is making the electricity.

While I'm not as big a fan of wind power as Wade is, it's not bad. What we REALLY NEED though is nuclear power...and LOTS of it. We need to be like France in this endeavor and make the majority of our power with nukes. Safe, reliable, and in the end, cheap power.

I agree with you on the Nuclear, I'm going to Power Plant Tech right now and i'm actually scared about getting a job with the way the economy is going right now against coal fired plants. I don't like wind energy because what happens when the winds not blowing they sit there and do nothing. So even if we go with wind we are still going to need peaking plants to pull the load when the wind is not blowing.

I work in a Security and Response service and we monitor wind turbines and it seems like the wind turbines are down getting repaired more then what they are working. Not sure what the exact speed is but we have had to shut down turbines ALOT because it gets to windy and they will over speed.

 

[robm]

Yha, there's pollution in the manufacturing of the windmill, but after that's over, it's pollution free.

On the topic of pollution, wind power is NOT pollution free when you consider how unstable it is, and that it has to be supplemented by on-demand power (likely coal or natural gas) to make up for the fluctuations in output. It's a PITA to tie wind power into the grid since it's never constant or predictable. Wind could conceivably ween us off foreign oil, but definitely not off fossil fuels. For that reason (and others, some of which have already been mentioned) I don't see wind as the answer.

 

[Wade]

On the topic of pollution, wind power is NOT pollution free when you consider how unstable it is, and that it has to be supplemented by on-demand power (likely coal or natural gas) to make up for the fluctuations in output. It's a PITA to tie wind power into the grid since it's never constant or predictable. Wind could conceivably ween us off foreign oil, but definitely not off fossil fuels. For that reason (and others, some of which have already been mentioned) I don't see wind as the answer.

Yes, you will definitely need natural gas peaking load generators to make up, when the wind doesn't blow. Coal is too slow to respond. To make wind work, you'd need a lot bigger distribution grid. And, extra wind turbines. The wind is usually blowing somewhere. Wind isn't really that good for the North West, as it is for the wind belt in the center of the country. Reliability in wind turbines will naturally increase with standardized production and increased manufacturing, the industry is young. Ever device follows that same MTBF curve.

Nuclear is a good option also. We already make 19% of our power with Nuclear, but we have the 4th largest uranium deposits in the world, so it can be American made also.

 

[06 RMK 900]

I have been punching a few numbers in the calculater not sure if it's 100% correct but a new plant cost about $2.5 Billion to build. The plant in Gillette (Dry Fork) is going to produce around 380MW per hour. I know there are alot of cost to run these things but if you figure it out average cost Per KWH is around 6.5 Cents. So at 380MW thats around $2.1 Billion a year from consumers. So the Cost of the BUILDING of the plant is paid in little over a year. PLUS the new plants are running more efficient and are getting paid to pipe some of there CO2 that they are capturing now. The way I look at it is they should keep researching on better ways to build Coal fired and Nuclear plants more efficient.

 

[ruffryder]

On the topic of pollution, wind power is NOT pollution free when you consider how unstable it is, and that it has to be supplemented by on-demand power (likely coal or natural gas) to make up for the fluctuations in output. It's a PITA to tie wind power into the grid since it's never constant or predictable. Wind could conceivably ween us off foreign oil, but definitely not off fossil fuels. For that reason (and others, some of which have already been mentioned) I don't see wind as the answer.

It is not that bad. Hawaii gets about 30 to 50 penetration levels, and they are just fine. Remember, there is no ONE answer, no ONE technology will solve the problem. Nukes have there own problems, you couldn't have 100 nukes, because they wouldn't want to change as quickly as load does. I have heard stories of nuke prices negative, meaning they would rather pay other people to reduce power output then reduce there own... Just some fyi As with most things in life, diversification is key, and diversifying our resources away from oil is what is important.

 

[RMK7SledHead]

It is not that bad. Hawaii gets about 30 to 50 penetration levels, and they are just fine. Remember, there is no ONE answer, no ONE technology will solve the problem. Nukes have there own problems, you couldn't have 100 nukes, because they wouldn't want to change as quickly as load does. I have heard stories of nuke prices negative, meaning they would rather pay other people to reduce power output then reduce there own... Just some fyi As with most things in life, diversification is key, and diversifying our resources away from oil is what is important.

nuclear plants operate at an optimum level, 24 hours/day. I'm sure they can regulate them some, but that's not efficient. The best way to do it is to have the nuke plants pump water uphill at night, then run that water back down through turbines during the day/peak hours.

 

[Mafesto]

It is truly wise to consider all options & look for new options.
However, it is fool hardy to asume coal is "too dirty" and attempt to phase it out.

Folks we got boo coo coal. It has proven to be the heart that pumps the lifeblood
of the electrical generation industry.
We need to continue producing power with coal.
We need to continually improve cleanliness of coal to power processes.

Pollution from coal is more of a political wedge than it is an actual problem.
For the most part, the coal reserves are far away from highly populated areas.
Thus, the coal powerplants also tend to be located away from the metro areas where
pollution can be problematic.

Would it make sense to put a coal plant near L.A.? Certainly not.
But the emissions from the plants in rural N.D. create no problems to anyone.

The left wing ultra-liberals are against coal simply because they are truly out of touch with
what is in the best interests of the US citizens.
They are on the "anti-coal" bandwagon simply to get revenge against republicans.

 

[IGOTGAS]

Aside from making the monopolies choke on their greed, anything that makes the desert rats dry up and wither away, I’m all for.

Back to my 101 insight on wind:
1 MW of juice takes care of about 275 households. With the average cost per turbine at $1.2mm per 1 mw someone is going to have to pay for that, and it will be us. It’s starting with Excel Energy.

As far as T. Boone Pickens plan, to change a 50 year old established infrastructure of oil over to natural gas will also take a lot of capital. I’m all for good willed people like T. Boone but his other motive was to seek the Tax Credits from wind. Snoop around Greentechmedia and you’ll see that his project is on hold now because the rest of his investments are not giving him the ROI, so he doesn’t need to relieve his tax liability.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/pickens-wants-natural-gas-fueled-big-rigs-5568.html

A $1,000,000 in revenue might be a bit high. In my world, this is how I calculate the revenue and I used the Idaho rates and used Clipperwind’s 2.5 turbine to do so. I attached the link to the power curve I used.

http://www.clipperwind.com/pdf/liberty_brochure.pdf

On page 18 of 20 is a power curve for a 2.5mw Clipperwind machine. You'll see from the graph, at 12 mph max efficiency is 2,500 kw/hour. Each machine will have a power curve worksheet – kind of like a dynamometer.

We then take 2,500 kw/hour x 8,760 (hours in a year) = 21,900,000 kw hrs in a year.

Since the typical wind site will not blow 100% all the time, we can take .333 (a third of the time the wind is blowing i.e., industry standard/average).

.333 x 21,900,000 = 7,227,000, hours of efficiency running in a year for a 2.5 mw Clipperwind

Average Fixed rate from Idaho Power $.065 + federal Production Tax Credit
$.02 = rounded $.085/kw hr

7,227,000 x $.085 = $614,295 revenue per year.

Other factors that would impact the final number is if the project is in a site where the wind blows more than an average wind speed of 12 mph for more than a third of the time.

Guys, my whole point is, wind is something I know a little about (and always willing to learn more) and when I hear the current administration promote it like it will solve ALL our problems, my head wants to explode because it’s not the whole picture but everyone is buying into it as if it is.

We need to harvest our own resources, change the power source of our daily commuters, allow residences to get off the grid (yes, and sell back)…..but it isn’t going to happen overnight, and I for one, do not feel like subsidizing it knowing that these monster wind projects are going to make plenty of coin once operational. All of them that I am familar with in my non-snowmobile life are making money. I guess when one buys into the entitlement mindset, such subsidies are not too far behind.

 

[Wade]

Aside from making the monopolies choke on their greed, anything that makes the desert rats dry up and wither away, I’m all for.

Back to my 101 insight on wind:
1 MW of juice takes care of about 275 households. With the average cost per turbine at $1.2mm per 1 mw someone is going to have to pay for that, and it will be us. It’s starting with Excel Energy.

As far as T. Boone Pickens plan, to change a 50 year old established infrastructure of oil over to natural gas will also take a lot of capital. I’m all for good willed people like T. Boone but his other motive was to seek the Tax Credits from wind. Snoop around Greentechmedia and you’ll see that his project is on hold now because the rest of his investments are not giving him the ROI, so he doesn’t need to relieve his tax liability.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/pickens-wants-natural-gas-fueled-big-rigs-5568.html

A $1,000,000 in revenue might be a bit high. In my world, this is how I calculate the revenue and I used the Idaho rates and used Clipperwind’s 2.5 turbine to do so. I attached the link to the power curve I used.

http://www.clipperwind.com/pdf/liberty_brochure.pdf

On page 18 of 20 is a power curve for a 2.5mw Clipperwind machine. You'll see from the graph, at 12 mph max efficiency is 2,500 kw/hour. Each machine will have a power curve worksheet – kind of like a dynamometer.

We then take 2,500 kw/hour x 8,760 (hours in a year) = 21,900,000 kw hrs in a year.

Since the typical wind site will not blow 100% all the time, we can take .333 (a third of the time the wind is blowing i.e., industry standard/average).

.333 x 21,900,000 = 7,227,000, hours of efficiency running in a year for a 2.5 mw Clipperwind

Average Fixed rate from Idaho Power $.065 + federal Production Tax Credit
$.02 = rounded $.085/kw hr

7,227,000 x $.085 = $614,295 revenue per year.

Other factors that would impact the final number is if the project is in a site where the wind blows more than an average wind speed of 12 mph for more than a third of the time.

Guys, my whole point is, wind is something I know a little about (and always willing to learn more) and when I hear the current administration promote it like it will solve ALL our problems, my head wants to explode because it’s not the whole picture but everyone is buying into it as if it is.

We need to harvest our own resources, change the power source of our daily commuters, allow residences to get off the grid (yes, and sell back)…..but it isn’t going to happen overnight, and I for one, do not feel like subsidizing it knowing that these monster wind projects are going to make plenty of coin once operational. All of them that I am familar with in my non-snowmobile life are making money. I guess when one buys into the entitlement mindset, such subsidies are not too far behind.

Yha, I back of enveloped it. I assumed wind was available for more of the day. I also have no idea what MTBF and average repair time is either.

Nice marketing slick. We were arguing about how they synchronize the power to the grid. The coal plant down the road uses a governor to synchronize it. This unit uses solid state. Pretty cool.

So, what's the cost per kilowatt hour, maintenance rate? I heard geothermal was about 3.3 cents per KWHr. I know this would have to be high, because the industrial power rate in Idaho is less than 4 cents per KWHr.

The answer to how they'll pay for the turbine is simple. 276 homes can pay a lot of money in year. Only question is what's the maintenance rate, and how long does a generator last. (IE life cycle cost) I'm only for giving the companies tax breaks, to get them off the ground, once their making money, and are self expanding, then market should take over. I'm not for mandated power. I seem to remember the Nuke industry getting a lot of the same (less direct) benefits back in the early days.

There's some cost benefit, if we don't have to ever deal with the middle east again, that's gotta factor in somewhere. Those hidden cost/benefit analysis are hard to see.

BTW, I'm all for coal, solar thermal, solar voltaic (specially thin film and nano tech), geothermal, wind, tidal, undersea turbine, nuclear, hydro, natural gas, oil, drilling at home, power efficiency, fusion research, and fat kids on bicycles driving generators. Heck, I'd hook welfare people into the grid, to generate power, if they didn't suck everything they touch dry. Now, space based power, sorry but that's crap.

Oh, and I personally believe Pickens is in it for Pickens. I'm not a follower of his.