Which Kit for M8?--OVS Aerocharger or Tial Garrett

[Variable]

It sounds like you didn't have your Aerocharger setup properly. Where did you have the vanes set? How did you have your controller setup? Which spring/shim combo were you using? Where were you pulling signal to the controller?

These are all things that make a major difference with our turbos but are commonly overlooked because people treat them like a conventional turbo. When you treat these turbos like a conventional turbo and just expect it to be better then you will more than likely get conventional turbo results. I'm not here to tell you that your setup doesn't spool quickly and on CVT transmissions is difficult for some people to tell a difference. It's a real shame when people put one of our turbos on their sleds and are disappointed that it doesn't spool any faster than a Garrett only to find out later that they just didn't dial it in.

 

[knifedge]

Seems like on this forum there are a lot more setup and tuning questions with the Garrett than with the Aerocharger. Boost PSI being equal and setups tuned properly, between the Garrett and the Aero, the Aero is at the very least a lighter, simpler setup. And assuming the Tial Garrett spool time is closer to the Aero, the Areo is still lighter and less complicated. --- If boost PSI is equal, output power should be the same with quicker spool time and lighter setup using the Aero. Seems like the turbine-shaft-compressor assembly on the Garrett has greater mass than the assembly on the Aero. This combined with the different bearing and oil types used would alone effect response and spool time. Also, if it truly does take substantially more power to spin the Garrett per PSI and RPM, then the Aero should allow more power to the track or at least be more efficient.

 

[knifedge]

Aerocharger
Hey guys, I thought I would update everyone on the pump gas kit from HM Turbos. I went to turbo day at Lolo Pass and got to ride it, the thing rips! I think it hits harder than any other pump gas kit I have ridden at only 6 lbs. As fast as I hit the throttle, the Boost gauge is pegged at peak boost. Shane has agreed to let me take it back to Boise to get some saddle time on it and report back. Anyone who might be interested in taking it for a ride, PM me and I will try to meet up somewhere (McCall, Cascade, Trinities, Pilot's). I am going out with Shane today to do some testing as well as suspension adjustments. The sled is a stock 2009 Dragon(new) with only the kit and venting added, along with running board traction and the MAG side torque arm installed. I will post some images from the ride later today.

-Dave


This guy seems to like the Aero on his Dragon--(Polaris Turbo thread)

 

[knifedge]

http://www.hmturbos.com/Tech/Tech.html

More info to check out--

 

[knifedge]

http://www.crazymtn.com/pages/800turbo.html


Crazy Mtn. runs Aerochargers also--

 

[harf69]

ive been to shanes shop rode with him and spent some time talking with him he really is a great guy and i do have to say kit kit REALLY WORKS that being said im not sold on the aero for the average person if you have a pipe sensor go out it can gum up the vaines then it wont work right the vaines are basiclly your wastegate i really believe the garret is far more economicial for the average consumer.shane kit rocks but its not on a cat either ive asked him to come out with one

 

[supraturbo]

The "only one guy rebuilding Aerochargers" is actually very outdated and in fact it hasn't been that way for years. But rumors and complaints spread faster than facts. Typical turnaround time is a week and that's only if you broke your turbo. Why does it seem that quite a few people have problems with our turbos? Because people typically do one or more of the following:

-turn up the boost past it's recommended limits
-use the wrong sized Aerocharger for their application
-send something through the turbine (like a piece of MIG wire from welding a flange onto the exhaust, quality turbo installations go a long way)

Garrett makes a great turbo but a properly sized Aerocharger will always out-spool any comparable Garrett/wastegate combo. The reason you more commonly hear from people that have problems with our turbos is because all the people that love them are always out riding. There will always be one fact: for every failed Aerocharger there are a hundred failed Garretts. If our turbos were so fail-prone as people make them out to be then why have we had contracts with the US Military over the past few years?

Not trying to tell any of you guys that you are wrong about your setups, just spreading some truth about our turbos.

well said!

 

[zebiraross]

Seems like on this forum there are a lot more setup and tuning questions with the Garrett than with the Aerocharger. Boost PSI being equal and setups tuned properly, between the Garrett and the Aero, the Aero is at the very least a lighter, simpler setup. And assuming the Tial Garrett spool time is closer to the Aero, the Areo is still lighter and less complicated. --- If boost PSI is equal, output power should be the same with quicker spool time and lighter setup using the Aero. Seems like the turbine-shaft-compressor assembly on the Garrett has greater mass than the assembly on the Aero. This combined with the different bearing and oil types used would alone effect response and spool time. Also, if it truly does take substantially more power to spin the Garrett per PSI and RPM, then the Aero should allow more power to the track or at least be more efficient.

This thread was a few years ago, nevertheless, great pro's and cons of aerocharger vs automotive turbo's.
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75279&highlight=aerocharger&page=2

 

[knifedge]

So base on the info and links above--

The Aerocharger works best for lower boost and recreational setups.-- The Garrett works well for low, mid, and high boost applications and is more durable in doing so. The Tial wastegate setup seems to allow the tuned exhaust to scavenge the cylinders better, making more power and seemingly better low end with less turbo lag. The Tial stainless turbine housing drops a few pounds off the Garrett also.

 

[knifedge]

Quote from Pure Logic in another thread---


I will answer a few questions on the tial set up. The upgrade is $1800.00 complete. This system has faster spool time with greater mid to top end power. The kit was tested all year last year. The complete turbo kit is $6500.00 the kit comes complete with clutching, gauges, handlebar mount for gauges, boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge, 02 gauge and side panels. This kit has some very special features, the cylinder that allows the wastegate to relieve boost pressure is ported 360 degrees around the cylinder to prevent disturbance in the flow of a 2-strokes tuner pipe. This was very important when the unit was tested as we all know you can't just put a one inch hole in a pipe and not drastically effect the performance of the pipe. This cylinder also allows the tuner pipe to use a standard gasket so it is not rigid mounted and the consumer can replace when necessary and not have to use woven flex exhaust material. If you have questions you can contact OVS at 801-940-7777 we will answer any question you have. Then Kevin can get you the kits that you need.

 

[knifedge]

http://www.pushturbo.com/turbo_external_waste_gate.php

Info page about Tial external wastgate--

 

[Jammmin]

Seems like on this forum there are a lot more setup and tuning questions with the Garrett than with the Aerocharger. Boost PSI being equal and setups tuned properly, between the Garrett and the Aero, the Aero is at the very least a lighter, simpler setup. And assuming the Tial Garrett spool time is closer to the Aero, the Areo is still lighter and less complicated. --- If boost PSI is equal, output power should be the same with quicker spool time and lighter setup using the Aero. Seems like the turbine-shaft-compressor assembly on the Garrett has greater mass than the assembly on the Aero. This combined with the different bearing and oil types used would alone effect response and spool time. Also, if it truly does take substantially more power to spin the Garrett per PSI and RPM, then the Aero should allow more power to the track or at least be more efficient.

--

You should get the Aero - then tell us what you think.
Here is a thought - put one on your car or a diesel and tell us what you think.
You will wish you got the garrett / tial
-
-

 

[knifedge]

I'm actually probably going for a Tial Garrett--

How much boost required to make 250 HP with a Tial Garrett at 10,000 ft on an M1000?

Is the 1 PSI=10 HP rule accurate?

At what level of boost would I need an intercooler?

And since Tial Garrett makes more power on less boost, then less boost would be necessary to reach 250 HP at 10,000 ft on an M1000 compared to a standard setup.

So roughly, at 10,000 ft altitude a stock M1000 makes about 115 HP, 250hp-115hp=135hp difference. So would I need about 13 psi boost to make 250 HP? Maybe less boost with a Tial setup?

 

[knifedge]

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193294

OVS Tial upgrade testimonial thread--

 

[matt159]

PSI vs. HP assuming ideal conditions, so subtract from here to get actual HP: m1000 at 13psi & charge temp of 140 degrees F (intercooled) could be about 230HP if the engine can make use of all the extra air & fuel. Non intercooled would probably run 60-80 degrees hotter at same boost, so subtract 2 psi (20+hp) to account for additional air expansion and you'll have more detonation issues due to higher charge temp.

If an m1000 makes 117hp at 10K feet, you'll spend 4.6psi just to get back to sea level HP of say 170 HP(?) at 30 degrees F for a stock m1000. You'll lose about 3 psi due to charge temp expansion (110 degrees). Each psi should gain you about 6.8% hp if your engine can use all the air/fuel that is added. So for an m1000 about 11.5 HP per psi after you overcome the thermal expansion loss & the 4.6psi ambient air pressure loss from sea level. 13psi boost leaves you with equivalent of 5.4 extra psi at sea level, so 5.4 * 11.5 = extra 62HP at sea level (or extra 115 HP at that altitude).

Crudely estimated with a Density Altitude Calculator & atmospheric pressure table, but it should be in the ballpark. --Matt

 

[Jammmin]

I'm actually probably going for a Tial Garrett--

How much boost required to make 250 HP with a Tial Garrett at 10,000 ft on an M1000?

Is the 1 PSI=10 HP rule accurate?

At what level of boost would I need an intercooler?

And since Tial Garrett makes more power on less boost, then less boost would be necessary to reach 250 HP at 10,000 ft on an M1000 compared to a standard setup.

So roughly, at 10,000 ft altitude a stock M1000 makes about 115 HP, 250hp-115hp=135hp difference. So would I need about 13 psi boost to make 250 HP? Maybe less boost with a Tial setup?

__
__

Its not a matter of "if" - its a matter of "when" you will want more HP.
Sooooooooo
Get the Race Gas version and start off with low boost.
Go with the OVS - Their service is awesome and they know their chit.

Enjoy
-

 

[CISC0]

Ovs

OVS all the way. Service is excellent! Speaking from personal experience. I have this yrs 1000 RG set-up, no disapointments. I can't say enough about Trav.

 

[SnowDevil]

Knifedge, call travis at ovs he has a couple guys in colorado doing the same thing. Dig my tial !! no more tuning.

I would start with 10lbs of boost and skip the intercooler for now to see how it works out.

 

[badass1000]

aerocharger lighter? I was told a aero 66 weighs 25lbs.
My 2871 with tial turbine houseing weighs 10lbs. I have not weighed my pump and tank, but definatly it is not over 2lbs with lines, etc. wastegate was 2-2.5lbs I believe. That leaves a safe 10lbs for oil and it is still lighter then a aero 66. I have less then a half a quart in my tank. I need to weigh the whole setup to compare to a aero.
You can't compare a aero 53 to the tial setup. It is not half the turbo of a 2871, and a aero 66 does not make near the boost of a 2871.

 

[zebiraross]

It sounds like you didn't have your Aerocharger setup properly. Where did you have the vanes set? How did you have your controller setup? Which spring/shim combo were you using? Where were you pulling signal to the controller?

These are all things that make a major difference with our turbos but are commonly overlooked because people treat them like a conventional turbo. When you treat these turbos like a conventional turbo and just expect it to be better then you will more than likely get conventional turbo results. I'm not here to tell you that your setup doesn't spool quickly and on CVT transmissions is difficult for some people to tell a difference. It's a real shame when people put one of our turbos on their sleds and are disappointed that it doesn't spool any faster than a Garrett only to find out later that they just didn't dial it in.

Steve Packer set up the turbo. It was back in the day when I didn't know what I was doing.