Warranty and Fuel Programmers, how have you made out?

[mountainhorse]

I know that this will be an unpopular opinion with some.

With a warranty comes the conditions of the warranty.

It was wrong of your dealer to state that your controller would not affect the warranty when it is contrary to the warranty contract.

The programmers do not "etch" into the eprom... nor create a record of themselves per se.... What could have happened is the dealer sent in a photo of the sled as requested... and they got "dinged".

Although some dealers are willing to "obscure" mods from the warranty adjusters at the policy company or Polaris... there are less and less of them out there... It does not boil down to "this is a good dealer" or "they are a bad dealer" if they don't warranty items on a sled that has been modded. IF a dealer submits a claim on a sled with obvious modifications to it, and does not state this at the time of the claim, they put their dealership at risk (and/or the job of the service manager) ... so, a "good dealer" that wants to stay open will not obscure the truth when servicing a warranty claim.

Putting a fuel controller on the sled gives the user the ability to do things beyond the control of the factory. They know this, as well as those here on this forum..... that the controller gives the owner the ability to lean it out too much or make it too rich.

Here's an analogy... Imagine that you are a plumber... and installed new plumbing on a new house, to code, in a home and did a good job. The homeowner loves to get a nice High pressure shower... and cranks up the pressure regulator to the water supply on the house or pump... ...then the pipes burst in the walls. Would you cover it??

OR...
Try to take a Dodge / Ford / GMC diesel truck into the dealer for an engine/drivetrain related problem with computer/turbo/intercooler mods on it and see what luck you have in getting them to fix it under warranty.

At 2300 miles... you should expect to install new pistons on the engine IMO...That would be at your cost as it is a "wearing item" that is "worn out" and not included in your warranty coverage. To me, 2300 miles is pretty darn good.















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[Old Scud-doo]

I agree with it is your cost to replace the pistons and rings. I am actually quite impressed you got that many miles out of them. I didn't make 1100 miles and couldn't keep a set of plugs from fouling until I rebuilt. I think your dealer should help you out on labor since he told you it was ok to do. Not Polaris or their insurance, your dealer.

 

[Norway]

At 2300 miles... you should expect to install new pistons on the engine IMO...That would be at your cost as it is a "wearing item" that is "worn out" and not included in your warranty coverage. To me, 2300 miles is pretty darn good.

2300 miles, yes, pretty good. We USED TO think that around 3000 miles was to be expected out of our pistons. And mine were collapsed a fair bit at 850 miles, 110 comp.

Before, we used controllers to either lean out super-safe settings or add fuel to match better breathing from add-ons. Now, specially the Dragons, you add a controller for longevity as well??

As an isolated question; "should polaris cover engine damage when you had a fuel controller mounted?" No, plain and simple.

Another isolated question; "Do you feel that PI are upholding their side of the bargain?" No, plain and simple.

Sometimes it is covered when it is not deserved, sometimes they won't cover it when they should have. My buddy nosedived when his super-duper glued A-arm fell apart. Polaris covered the A-arm, but not the shock that folded when he landed?? How is that for promoting honesty? Door swings both ways.

$0.02

 

[mickyd32]

I hate to say it, but based on some replies here, I have have to say some of you have offended me by implying I'm trying to "slip one past polaris". The simple question was how have others made out with programmers and warranty

I seem to be making out good. The sled went to the shop with all the gear I installed on it, still on it. No pulling the blanket over anyone's eyes here.

That being said, I was already prepared to install a "fix kit" at my own cost, in my own shop, on my own time. No problem. I don't see problem trying to have something warrantied before a larger failure occurs. I could have taken in it everything stripped off and lied about the situation after a complete failure and polaris could be out an entire short block, not just pistons and rings. As others have said, this is a two sides coin

 

[glassman]

If it is a known warranty issue, then why do they try and weasel out of the warranty. I understand if your modification caused a failure, but dont use that as a scapegoat. I had a head and can on my sled, and the skirt had a small crack on it. I would assume the second I touched the motor to examine it, my warranty was void. Polaris covered it, no questions. Was that dealer service? I would say yes.

 

[mountainhorse]

mickyd32,

I feel for ya... Our sport is an expensive one.

I've re-read the thread a couple more times and I cannot find where anyone implied that you did anything wrong.

Can your dealer show you that your warranty was denied because of the controller... There would be a "paper trail" on that.

From what I read... your engine/pistons did not fail... but you did notice low compression at 2300 miles???
Even without a controller (bone stock) , pistons/rings are not warrantied because of wear in any of the brands of sleds.




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[Leaf27]

I had a burn down with using a pc5 and attune with a head and pipe and had no issues with warranty.

Honesty folks goes a long way.

 

[mickyd32]

MH, that is just the way I read it because its a thread I started. I may be reading it wrong I may not.

FYI for everyone, as of now warranty has not been denied, and they are going ahead with a rebuild.

 

[mountainhorse]

Not the way I intended it.... unfortunate it came off that way.

Aren't you going with a "fix kit"?

Good thing you'll have some peace of mind for another 2300 miles.






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[mickyd32]

No I'm not going with a fix kit. If warranty was not going to happen then that would be the route I would go

I understand what you were getting at MH, don't worry about it

I just didn't like how some of the response posts seemed to be about this and that and everything else void warranty instead of the intention of the thread.
Which is how people have actually made out with warranty claims and fuel controllers

 

[pulltype_polaris]

If these pistons are wear items where's the fine print on when its deemed failure or worn out. Some guys have more mile on their belts than their engines and warranty is a fight

 

[OuraySledder]

If these pistons are wear items where's the fine print on when its deemed failure or worn out. Some guys have more mile on their belts than their engines and warranty is a fight

Does this still hold true since the advent of the Pro? I read lots of horror stories on the Dragons. Tons of claims denied that should have been covered. I am not reading the same stories in the last few years. I think the warranty coverage has been improved, as has the motor itself.

Let us not perpetuate outdated rumours...

 

[bobback]

Does this still hold true since the advent of the Pro? I read lots of horror stories on the Dragons. Tons of claims denied that should have been covered. I am not reading the same stories in the last few years. I think the warranty coverage has been improved, as has the motor itself.

Let us not perpetuate outdated rumours...

FINALLY! Someone saying some logic/sticking to the facts! As I'm getting really tired reading useless posts that basically say:

The pro motor sucks.

And that is it, just it sucks.

Yes, we all know the dragons had issues, but yes not reading the same stories over the past few years.

Mickyd32...glad everything worked out for you, as I would have had the same attitude of: since under warranty worth trying to get it covered.

 

[freak485]

IMO pistons and rings are like wiper Blades and tires. They dont last forever. Its user cost. We should be thankfull they even do waranty on sleds in the dirt bike world you have zero unless its a defect in the first 30 days or so. at 2300 miles thats alot of hours you would never get that out of any of the new dirt bikes 2 or 4 stroke without noticable power loss.

 

[0neoldfart]

To the OP...

If my comment came across as an accusation, it wasn't meant that way. You were being up front and honest, as the sled went to the dealer with the programmer on.
That being said, it is safe to say the sled isn't stock (hence the need for a fuel programmer). Not to say your failure is in direct correlation to the mods that were done, as a matter of fact my warranty would cover electrical items (handwarmers, harness, etc), but if I had an engine failure caused by overstressing components by adding more hp, well it would say that is on my dime, but a lot of folks figure it should be on the manufacturer, and would attempt to hide modifications to get it covered. This is the reason a lot of manufacturers have plainly stated that any mods will void warranty - they do not have the patience or time to do a failure analysis on every component (ie: did adding this can or pipe cause a burn down? Was the fuel mapping to blame? etc.)
I'm not the warranty police, but I do have a strong resolve regarding ethics - one's actions strongly represent one's character...

 

[mickyd32]

If my comment came across as an accusation, it wasn't meant that way. You were being up front and honest, as the sled went to the dealer with the programmer on.
That being said, it is safe to say the sled isn't stock (hence the need for a fuel programmer). Not to say your failure is in direct correlation to the mods that were done, as a matter of fact my warranty would cover electrical items (handwarmers, harness, etc), but if I had an engine failure caused by overstressing components by adding more hp, well it would say that is on my dime, but a lot of folks figure it should be on the manufacturer, and would attempt to hide modifications to get it covered. This is the reason a lot of manufacturers have plainly stated that any mods will void warranty - they do not have the patience or time to do a failure analysis on every component (ie: did adding this can or pipe cause a burn down? Was the fuel mapping to blame? etc.)
I'm not the warranty police, but I do have a strong resolve regarding ethics - one's actions strongly represent one's character...

I know what you are saying. I do agree with you. However at the same time, I dd my homework once I discovered an issue. I'm not the only one to have this issue. Some are on stock units others not. Some had 500 miles some are in the thousands.
So it is impossible to surmise that modifications caused anything. That's why it went to the shop as it was

 

[mountainhorse]

Micky, I understand where you are coming from.

Also, the historical warranty failures on pistons are not from worn rings at higher mileages... Piston "faliure mode", if it happens, was generally related to piston-skirt and cyl-skirt cracking.

... I also realize that I don't ride easy, and this is in fact a 2 stroke motor. I have seen many of all brands make far less miles. Mine still feels like it is running strong, but tests show otherwise. A new top end refress after 2300 miles isn't the end of the world to me

Your engine did not fail, and who knows if it would have in 1 mile or 2000 miles additional, though it probably would loose power through time the same as any other sled/chainsaw/dirtbike etc. From what I've read here (correct me if I'm wrong) your engine was low on compression but still working...105 lbs compression, and 'running strong'.

Polaris is saying that for a 2300 mile sled, your compression (even on both cylinders) is acceptable as your sled is running well.

"Flaking rings" are normal on hard ridden 2 stroke engines... Ive seen it on all brands of sleds, bikes, and other 2 stroke machines... with stock and aftermarket pistons... many still running today with the flaking rings...The degree of this is in question and how much it affects your engine. From an old CR250 workshop manual... it stated that the pistons should be replaced every 2 races or anytime the rings showed signs of wear or breakdown (aka flaking)

I think that it is wise that you are replacing pistons on an engine that has been ridden hard for 2300 miles. Most good sled mechanics would advise replacement of pistons in a modern high output sled engine before 2300 miles to maintain top performance and reliability. Most top shops that I'm in touch with recommend 1000 to 1500 mile intervals.

One thing to note is that on a hard ridden mountain sled, that spends a fair time "grinding away" on a side hill or in deep snow, under high loads... the odometer does not give a true representation of the amount of use (wear and tear) on the engine.

Pretty cool that the dealer is helping you out... and I wish you the best of luck with that... you may or may not have to pay for this in the end.

When you get your pistons done... please post up some pics of the old ones (rings and pistons)

So to ask you a question related to:

... I did my homework once I discovered an issue. I'm not the only one to have this issue.

In your opinion, at what point should pistons and/or rings be replaced on one of these engines?

Your concern is flaking rings. To me, at 2300 miles, this simply should be looked at as a wear item... lots of variables to ponder that can affect this including how hard you ride, maint, oil used, fuel quality, in your case fuel settings at different rpm/loads etc etc.

On your 2011 PRO with 5000 miles on it and no issues... is it still on it's original pistons?? (and if so... what is the compression on those?)


Now, for your original question(s)...

so, how has everyone else made out under similar circumstances?
can anyone confirm or deny the etching of a fuel controller onto the ECM

1) I have a handle on more warranty claims than many...and see a lot both sent to me as emails/PM's and talking to people around the country and in Canada (and some overseas as well).

What I have seen, universally, is that fuel control boxes added to the engines will cause Polaris to deny warranty claims related to the engine when it is evident or reported by the dealer.

I have personal experience on a friends sled that I maintain equipped with a PC-V that had a cylinder scoring issue at 980 miles not covered because of the installation of the controller.

2) A controller does not "etch" itself nor is it recorded in the ECU on a 2013 DC-CFi-2 system.













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[shabs]

Honesty folks goes a long way.

Absolutely it does I agree, but big businesses aren't honest, my d8 had tons of warranty issues that cost me money that should have been covered when it was stock so basically me getting my money back that's all.

And as far as warranty for pistons, IMO yes they are basically consumable parts in a 2stroke motor but it's part of warranty that they are responsible for manufacturing defects and are to be replaced untill your warranty runs out/ or up to value of the machine. No different than buying a new truck and having the motor blow within warranty. Flaking rings is poor quality manufacturing, regardless of miles if it's under warranty they should be replaced, in stock form.

 

[mickyd32]

In my mind its very hard, if not impossible to answer the question of when pistons and rings should be replaced. In this thread I think we may all be able to agree on one thing. That is simply that all motors are built to a comply to a certain spec. What happens 2 two "identical" motors from the instant they are assembled to the day they eventually die is so radically different that I have never believed in a single lifespan of any motor.

In the case of the motor in question in this thread, it went through my typical break in from day one. Cycles of throttle from idle to wide open, never spending any length of time in one spot for the first tank of fuel. After that is has been ridden hard.

The 11 assault with 5000+ miles was broke in the exact same way, ridden the same way

The 12 switchback pro r was a factory demo, bought by my old man at 400 miles, so who knows its break in history, also ridden decently hard

Now, my 13 at 2300 miles say anywhere from 95-105 compression depending on who's gauge is used
12 switchback at 2800 miles (also with a programmer and pipe) tests at 118+ for compression
11 assault at 5000+(it went through a time frame with a broken speedo assembly that didn't record some miles) says 116+.

This is the kind of thing that makes it hard for me to answer the question how far should you get out of an engine. Here you see 3 almost identical engines (we know of changes year to year). Two set up the same, yet the one with higher mileage runs stronger. Then you see a third motor that came to life the same way, and has double the mileage still running ok, but in all likely hood should be freshened up. So here isy answer, 3-4000 miles would make me happy. This is 2 good season for most people. I don't think that is asking

Hell I just came from an AC dealer where my buddy was looking at a turboed Yamacat thingy where they offer the same warranty from day one on a 270 horse sled. I just threw that comment in to add some perspective

 

[mountainhorse]

If I were you.... I'd change pistons on at Least the 11 with 5000 miles... and probably the others as well... my 2 cents.



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