URGENT !! INJECTOR OIL UPDATE

[indydan]

Ok, I am going to eat crow here and change my theory on Injector oil for most fuel injected motors and mainly the Polaris CFI 2 motors.

Its no secret that over the last few years that random rod bearing failure has crept its way into the Fuel injected sled market.

I have been a mineral base injector oil guy as long as I can remember.

That being said:

And I have been for 3 main reasons:

1 : its always worked good in the past and pistons looked great>
2 : its compatible with rubber crank seals
3 : it has the best rust protection.

Here is where I am going to switch my position 100% back to synthetic's

In the Polaris motors there has been an alarming change in fuel delivery from 2004 carbureted to 2006 - ( lets leave out the 2005 750/900 ) to keep this simpler.

Once the fuel stopped coming in thru the reed cage from carbs, and injectors started delivering fuel thru 4 injectors or 2, things have started to change in the rod bearing world and you can see the OEM's making them bigger and playing with different bearings and different clearances.

With random results.

AND - Most importantly, oil viscosities..... have been getting lower and lower to a level somewhat like water at room temp ( I.E. The new bagged Arctic Cat oil )

I did not start this thread to have a mass debate, I started it to save my a$$.......Because last spring & all summer I have been assembling motors with a heavy assembly lube in the rod & main bearings ( I believe this was a big mistake ) and hard to get rinsed out with a dry case.

in a CFI 2 motor Mid range and full throttle the fuel pretty much stays in the top of the motor unlike idle & low speed in & out of the throttle there is some fuel build up in the case helping to thin the injector oil and help suspend it so the rod can slice thru it so to speak.

Now here comes a BANK of theory's

#1 - Thought & concern - is the thicker injector oil or assembly lube in the rod bearing can vacuum lock the bearing cage so it cannot easily spin and move at the rate it needs to and can flat spot the rollers.

#2 - I have been using a heavy assembly lube in the center cavity for the drive gear and I am concerned in cold where that it will be hard for the is lube to get out of the center cavity thru the small drain under mag side center bearing that allows for that injector oil to help lube the mag rod bearing after its full enough.

I run 5-40 Extreme blue Valvoline in my Cummins so at cold start it can move oil easily...........I have come to the conclusion that these CFI fuel injectors motors need really thin oil to move thru the case easily since they no longer have fuel to thin the viscosity down to help get the oil to the rods and keep them lubed up and spinning free.

So I am to the point where the dread oil question that may forever live will be answered like this in a CFI 2 or 4 motor...........Run the factory injector oil or something with the same pour point or lower.

As far as exhaust valves go.........what ever works for the rod bearings will have to be tolerated for the exhaust valves no matter what happens on that end. It should be better with synthetic so it is said.

So to all my customers that have received motors that have not run yet, ** ** ( suck the oil tanks dry and fill them with thin viscosity synthetic right away, ) ** and these motors need a lot of low speed running to wash out the assembly lube in the warmest weather possible.

Sub zero weather with the assembly lube I used is almost sure to fail a lower rod bearing if its not rinsed out yet and grabs the roller cage.

I have already started contacting people VIA phone & e-mail but some we have not reached yet.

Thank you !!

Dan

 

[damx]

What would be a good thin viscosity synthetic oil ?

 

[6Mile]

You may be able to have the best of both worlds. If nothing else give the Legend Oil a look see.

http://www.legendperformance.com/products-page-2/2stroke/zx-2sr/

This is a mineral base oil that has a lower pour point than the VES from Polaris.

I use the product, but I do not sell it nor do I have any financial ties to the company the produces this product. -- disclaimer over.

 

[mountainhorse]

Dan,

I'm a BIG fan of the Lengend ZX-2SR oils.
The benefits of the mineral oil's ability on coating internal parts on shutdown and extreme pressure (film strength) capabilities and still flow well
in a dry crankcase.

Smells good to boot.

Give Mark a call at Legend and he'll give you the "skinny" on this oil.



.

 

[mountainhorse]

I also agree that the "Dry Crankcase" is a huge factor...

From a previous post.

11-17-2012, 03:05 PM
One thing to consider in this day/age of "DRY" crankcases... where there is actually NO fuel in the crankcase to bring the oil up into the system... UNLIKE the CFi 4 systems.

The oil for these dry-case motors must not be very tenacious... it has to flow easily through the bearings inside of a dry warm case/rods/crank and then up into the transfer ports to lubricate the cylinders.

So the old guard of saying that Mineral based oils work best, may not be OK. I'm not saying that you have to use VES gold... but you should use a good oil that will have the correct properties to run in these very recently different engines.

I've noticed that my friends who run synth like Redline, VES G+ etc smoke more after a week of sitting than the guys that use older mineral based oils... I belive that this is because the mineral based oils will cling to the parts more than the synth and no "pool" in the bottom of the crankcase like many of the pricier synth oils do.

The new synthetic oils run off the parts easily.. so much so that they do not protect the engines during summer storage... or even a week on the trailer in the cold... that is why fogging a motor is even more important than ever.

I'm looking into this right now and hope to have a better report up here soon.

This "dry case" situation is true for the PRO RMK/RMK engines from 2011 to present... and for the E-Tek engines.

.

 

[RHODESIE]

oil

I got all my legend oil information from Kelsey at rk tek.

 

[mt.aero]

Dan,
I have one of your motors on my work bench, just about to put it in. Anything I can or should do (like flushing the assembly oil) while I have it out?

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Thoughts on mystik synthetic?

Any experiences?

-54* f. Pour point.

Available locally. http://docs.mystiklubes.com/msds_pi/M20075.pdf

 

[BILTIT]

I have about 80 miles on your fresh long rod, i have always used legend or ipone oil even prior to the bearing failure.

So what can a guy do to help ensure this doesnt happen? Low speed running/idling in a heated garage be beneficial?

 

[indydan]

Dan,
I have one of your motors on my work bench, just about to put it in. Anything I can or should do (like flushing the assembly oil) while I have it out?

Good question, I would unscrew the lower crank drains take a can of brake cleaner with the extended red nozzle and rinse both rods out good then let it sit over night and all the excess Brake cleaner will evaporate.

then just tip the motor on its exhaust side and drizzle 1/2 oz of straight injector oil on each rod and simply roll it over a few times and your done.

I have heard great things about Legend oil but I know nothing about it.

Sum good percs here From MH and other guys, IMO I am mainly concerned about pour point and if its in the -50 below range I am a fan.

I see Spectro has a -54 pour point

Biltit - yes warm garage and lots random short warm ups will flush the rod out.

I have always Like mystik because I heard good things about it.

 

[Pro-8250]

800 Pro RMK

For years we have used Amsoil Interceptor. Lately we have been using Polaris VES Gold Plus. We are now thinking about changing to Klotz. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[BILTIT]

Indy Dan - thanks for the update , appreciated.

I have never opened up the bottom end of a cfi or fuel injected engine, I did however pull the top end off my old carls 910. The amount of oil in the bottom end was staggering!

 

[BattleStorm]

How about Arctic Blue Semi Synthetic with a pour point of -60F , I think that would be fine ?

 

[sledsnowco]

Legends oil all the way

 

[Sage Crusher]

Blue Marble??<TABLE class=copy border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="75%" bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Appearance (color)</TD><TD>Clear, dark green</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Pour Point</TD><TD>< -40° F</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Flash Point</TD><TD>184° F</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Kinematic Viscosity @ 40° C</TD><TD>38.5</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Kinematic Viscosity @ 100° C</TD><TD>7.5</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>Viscosity Index</TD><TD>160</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>




S/C

 

[rmk8001]

What do you think about blue marble?

 

[800poodragon]

How about Red Line?

 

[mountainhorse]

I have heard great things about Legend oil but I know nothing about it.

Sum good percs here From MH and other guys, IMO I am mainly concerned about pour point and if its in the -50 below range I am a fan.

Legend ZX-2SR has a cold pour point of -54º F.
Click Here

Check out the website
http://www.legendperformance.com/technical-info/
I'd like to hear what you have to say after a conversation with Mark.









.

 

[ndC7M8]

Using this in another thread but has more significance here, . Found archived on SnoWest:


Update: received some royal purple snow 2-c today, went to the lab, First i looked at the oil in my microscope and noticed some thing differnt from the other oil's, The base oil is all synthetic, But some th ing did not look right so i checked out the royal purple web site to look at the msds and there it was, Iso paraffinic diluent's what is it, Isoparaffinic are branched aliphatic hydrocarbon's and depending on the carbon length range it could be used as a solvent, When diluted it act's like a detergant but is better idea then a strong detergant's, I think this oil would keep valve cleaning down, Any way r.p.m. before break down 12,075, This is a very good oil, As the oil's come in i will post them. -42F pour point.

Tested, injex pro 2- cycle, The base stock is mineral oil the other is synthetic oil, this oil contains a large amount of detergent's and ash, To me this oil would be good for air cooled engine's that get hotter then liquid cooled engine's, Air cooled engine's need detergent's to keep carbon build up down. Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength 8,875, With a large amount of foam and heat under high r.p.m, This oil failed my test.

Tested, Mystic jt-4 synthetic, R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength 13,600, This oil was the best in cold pour point so far with a - 56 f, This oil is excellent and passed my test.

TESTED, Red Line two-stroke snowmobile oil, This oil has 80% base stock's of very small molecules, It has very low ash, Very good film strength, And a pour point of -42f, Maximum r.p.m. before break down was 11,443, This oil passed my test.

TESTED, Polaris racing synthetic oil, this oil had 85% base stock's of very small molecules and a very high film strengh, first let's compare this to ves gold plus, the racing oil has .9% higher visosity then the ves gold plus, But the ves has more corrosion inhibitors then the racing oil, polaris racing synthetic maximum r.p.m. before break down was 12,920, This oil passed my test. with a pour point of -40f. So far the best bang for the buck is the mystic jt-4 synthetic, A friend of mine gave me some Legend zx-2r to test next. Any members use this oil.

TESTED: Amsoil Dominator, pour point -50, This oil has excellent synthetic base stock at 75%, and 25% high processed oil's, but it has alot of detergent's in the formula, R.P.M. before break down of the viscosity and film strength was 12,002, This oil passed my test.

TESTED: Legend ZX-2SR: First off under the microscope this oil is not a synthetic oil, but an ultra pure highly refined mineral oil, the molecules are very small, the pour point was -54f. R.P.M. before brake down of the oil viscosity and film strength is unknown. My test unit only goes to 16,000 R.P.M. and the oil never broke down. This oil is going to be my new oil in my new rush switchback 800, and yes i checked the oil three times in my machines this oil is the best i have tested. I have to thank my friend jeff for giving me this oil to test.

TESTED: Polaris synthetic blend (blue) oil, This oil is70% mineral oil with 30% synthetic in the mix, The molecules are not very uniform, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strengh was 8,988, This oil failed my test, And i have been using this oil to break in my new polaris snowmobile's over the year's, But what i dont understand is on the label it say's for non-ves?, pour point was-38f.

TESTED: Spectro syn-snow, this oil is 100% synthetic with very small and uniform moecules, there is a detergent in this oil, maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 13,778, this oil passed my test. pour point was -55f.

TESTED: Legend ZX-2R, This oil is almost the the same as zx-2sr, this is not a synthetic but a highly refined mineral, the molecules are small, But not as small as the zx-2sr, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 13,675, pour point was -48f. This oil passed my test.

TESTED: Yamalube 2s two stroke oil , This oil has a mineral base with synthetic added to the mix 60% mineral, 40% synthetic, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 9,998, Even though the r.p.m. were not that impressive, I am going to pass this oil, Becuse of it's rust protection, and it is a very clean burning oil, pour point was tested at -33f

tested: klotz r-50 Techniplate, This oil is all synthetic, and has very small molecules, And it is a thick oil, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 15,579, even though the oil broke down, my test unit stayed at 116f, wierd, this is the first time my unit did this, pour point tested at -14f, this oil passed my test.

TESTED: Shell ADVANCE SNOW ALTRA ,This oil is all synthetic, The molecules are very small and uniform with low ash, This oil is a API-TC, JASO-FC, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 11,902, this oil passed my test, A note about ash, what is it? it is calcium phenate or magnesium phenate, these compounds are detergent's. Some oil's contain more and some less, We want less ash to pass my test's.

TESTED: CASTOR OIL, Yes people out there are using it, Castor is a bean oil, it is a excellent lubricant, With a high R.P.M. of 13,992 before break down, But this oil is very dirty, with carbon build up, this oil failed my test.

 

[05rmksteve]

Legend is a great oil, I did a ton of research on oils before I decided to run the ZX-2SR in my mod and now in my pro. Only problem is it can be hard to find.